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rear end Catchcum posted:I just think it's hosed up you can go to jail for life because one guy says you did it. I see where you are coming from, and there are obviously things to be worried about with the way the state handled the case, but one guy (who has no apparent motive to carry out the murder himself) saying you did it, and leading the police to evidence, and describing things about the crime that the public would not know is actually really strong evidence that you did it. It's not just one guy pulling a name out of a hat and nothing else.
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Dec 19, 2014 01:31
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Mojo Threepwood posted:One of my biggest concerns about Adnan's potential innocence was the lack of plausible alternative suspects. Jay was the most obvious but no motive, and Adnan didn't claim it was him. The current boyfriend had an alibi. I was glad when the host seemed to be addressing this, but a roaming serial killer? That was a huge stretch.  And he's the guy the guy they pinned it on!! Obviously film ≠ real life, but it bears repeating that once the detectives and prosecutors decide on a narrative they begin to ignore anything that doesn't fit. While it's a relatively long shot, I don't think it's less believable than Adnan being a brilliant sociopath. I'm inclined to give some credence to the Innocence Project woman who's been working with killers and non-killers for 2 or 3 decades.
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Dec 19, 2014 01:45
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With 15 years of hindsight and investigation and new technology and a veteran journalist to walk us through it all, it's really easy (and accurate) to say that the state's case was, at best, really weak. I can't help but think that it probably wouldn't have seemed that way (and clearly didn't!) to the jury though, particularly when the defense strategy appeared to consist entirely of standing in front of Jay and saying "Nuh-uh!" a lot.
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Dec 19, 2014 02:03
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Mojo Threepwood posted:Jay was the most obvious but no motive, and Adnan didn't claim it was him.
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Dec 19, 2014 02:32
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pwn posted:While it's a relatively long shot, I don't think it's less believable than Adnan being a brilliant sociopath. I'm inclined to give some credence to the Innocence Project woman who's been working with killers and non-killers for 2 or 3 decades. I think the Innocence Project is putting a lot on it because it's pretty much their only shot. They aren't about arguing appeals, they're about reviewing evidence that proves someone innocent. None of the guilty people (if it is anyone already considered) is going to confess, so tying it to somebody like a serial killer is the only thing they have to work with.. Even if, somehow, Jay's DNA were found, it would probably still be difficult to show Adnan is innocent. And Adnan doesn't need to be a brilliant sociopath to have done it (can't be all that brilliant if the judge and other people "saw through" him). Especially not if this wasn't as carefully planned as the state's case would have it.
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Dec 19, 2014 03:05
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Adolescents are impulsive and prone to making regrettable decisions. Adnan could easily be the nice 1st generation Muslim-American friends described and still strangle Hae. The psychopath/sociopath angle reeks of armchair sleuths with more knowledge of police procedurals than psychology and criminology. I'm very skeptical of the premeditation angle, because it rests on Jay's word. I can more easily believe Adnan became angry with Hae during their last interaction and snapped.
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Dec 19, 2014 03:20
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If it hasn't been mentioned in the thread yet, the 80's true crime book Homicide: A Year on the Killing Streets is a good thick tome, following a year in the homicide unit in part of Baltimore. There are murders that are immediately pinned on the right guy, there are murders that go unsolved, there are murders that the police aren't 100% sure they have the right guy but are under pressure to grab the best fitting set of limbs and hurl the suspect under a bus, and there are murderers that walk away. It doesn't focus so much on cases as on the detectives, and the whole process of detection, mingled with finageling from the higher ups, and the all-holy stats tracking that drives the department. The book, like this podcast, is something of a cure for the warm fog of certainty and closure that TV police procedurals tend to wrap you in. Among the things I remember from it that are applicable to this thread are that nice guys are horrible murderers sometimes for a few minutes, and are still nice guys afterward, that the justice system is a lurching machine, and that all the pieces sometimes don't go together. And that it's not impossible to get away with murder, especially in Baltimore. And that Don's approach to alibi construction is not a bad idea, if you talk to the police at all, which you shouldn't. doctorfrog fucked around with this message at 03:32 on Dec 19, 2014 |
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Dec 19, 2014 03:28
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Homicide is really excellent, although at times it can feel kind of stilted. You can tell it is one of David Simon's first attempts at a long work. It was written about a decade before Hae's murder but I doubt much has changed. The emphasis BPD placed on making a determination who the culprit is, building a case against them, and then passing it off to the DA's office with no further thought given to the possibility of someone else having done it was really troubling. You can see the same thing happening with the treatment of Adnan as compared to Jay.
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Dec 19, 2014 03:52
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CoffeeBooze posted:The emphasis BPD placed on making a determination who the culprit is, building a case against them, and then passing it off to the DA's office with no further thought given to the possibility of someone else having done it was really troubling. The impression I got (and I may be horribly wrong, or the impression the book gave me was incorrect) was that this is how the work is generally done, especially if your department is understaffed or your jurisdiction is overmurdered. You either have to have the lock-step courage-of-your-convictions mindset to go with it, or project it, or else you're not going to last too long as a homicide detective. You'll burn out, or your superior will see you as a liability to the department and get you transferred. And most certainly you'll have more red ink on the board. And if you're seen as shaky on one case, that potentially puts every other case that has resulted in conviction, at risk. "We speak for the dead," says one detective, and you risk letting all those other people you've spoken for, down. So yeah, you have no doubts, the guy did it (even if you have doubts). And again, I could be very wrong and there are plenty of cops with doubts who express them quite freely. I could be completely full of poo poo, and the justice system in general does not work in this way. In fact, I hope I am, and that this is just a really hosed up case.
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Dec 19, 2014 04:04
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Here is why this podcast is disrespectful to the family of the victim, it is essentially a re trying of the case, but imagine a defense attorney being allowed to talk to a jury without objections, ignoring any rules of evidence, conducting cross (with no direct) on the key witnesses, and having the defendant testify without being crossed, and sure enough it seems like he might not be guilty. So now you have this reopening of old wounds,and in fact WBEZ or whoever is ultimately profiting from the story of the girls death, coupled with an army of low-information dilettantes convinced the guy who killed your daughter/sister whatever is innocent due to a one-sided podcast. They shouldn't have gone forward unless the family participated.
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Dec 19, 2014 04:22
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Where are you copy/pasting this stuff from? It is loving hilarious. It has got to be Reddit, but where on Reddit?
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Dec 19, 2014 05:08
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African AIDS cum posted:Here is why this podcast is disrespectful to the family of the victim, it is essentially a re trying of the case, but imagine a defense attorney being allowed to talk to a jury without objections, ignoring any rules of evidence, conducting cross (with no direct) on the key witnesses, and having the defendant testify without being crossed, and sure enough it seems like he might not be guilty. So why the gently caress did you listen to every episode? Cool you don't like it and don't agree with it, in fact, it sounds like you disagree with it at the base level, so I have no earthly idea why you are still here complaining about it.
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Dec 19, 2014 05:46
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African AIDS cum posted:Here is why this podcast is disrespectful to the family of the victim, it is essentially a re trying of the case, but imagine a defense attorney being allowed to talk to a jury without objections, ignoring any rules of evidence, conducting cross (with no direct) on the key witnesses, and having the defendant testify without being crossed, and sure enough it seems like he might not be guilty. Yeah, this has kinda been bugging me too. I think you're overstating it a bit, but if it were my murdered kid, I'd object to my family's tragedy and her body basically being turned into an object of curiosity for people with white earbuds to gossip over, and for a radio producer to wring her hands over the super nice guy I was told killed her. Still enjoyed the podcast, but there's a sting there. I don't know what that has to do with Reddit, maybe because it sounds like you're ripping your garments over it? Eh, goons.
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Dec 19, 2014 06:16
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Some of you have apparently never heard of true crime before in your entire lives and are suddenly offended now that you know it exists and that's weird. Also lmao at responding to African Aids Cum sincerely, the guy with 159 pages of posts in the :niggasteve: thread.
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Dec 19, 2014 06:26
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Conrad_Birdie posted:So why the gently caress did you listen to every episode? Cool you don't like it and don't agree with it, in fact, it sounds like you disagree with it at the base level, so I have no earthly idea why you are still here complaining about it. People can disagree and still discuss things like adults IMO
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Dec 19, 2014 06:29
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African AIDS cum posted:People can disagree and still discuss things like adults IMO Tell me how to discuss things like an adult, fourms user African AIDS cum
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Dec 19, 2014 07:45
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Raar_Im_A_Dinosaur posted:Tell me how to discuss things like an adult, fourms user African AIDS cum Watch out, bro. If you keep making fun of him he'll look at your post history and make fun of the other threads you post in.
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Dec 19, 2014 07:46
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Can someone explain why people are getting unhinged about my opinion of this podcast which others have echoed as well? And explain how writing the username an admin renamed me is relevant?
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Dec 19, 2014 08:08
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African AIDS cum posted:Can someone explain why people are getting unhinged about my opinion of this podcast which others have echoed as well? And explain how writing the username an admin renamed me is relevant? I dunno, it's just funny. And also accurate.
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Dec 19, 2014 09:09
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They presented a narrative that feels like it immerses you in the story, but truly detaches the audience from the people who were really affected by the murder of a high school kid. If there really are so many concerns over the ambiguities in Adnan's case, then this wasn't the right way or probably the right outlet to present that information.
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Dec 19, 2014 09:35
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African AIDS cum posted:Here is why this podcast is disrespectful to the family of the victim, it is essentially a re trying of the case, but imagine a defense attorney being allowed to talk to a jury without objections, ignoring any rules of evidence, conducting cross (with no direct) on the key witnesses, and having the defendant testify without being crossed, and sure enough it seems like he might not be guilty. True Crime stories have existed and will continue to do so, this isn't a new concept. I don't see why people get up in arms about it. Koenig was as respectful to Hae as she could've been, and trust me when I say that I've read enough true crime books to know that it would've been way too easy to delve into her past. There's plenty of people who think Adnan is innocent because of the podcast, but then there's plenty of people who think he's guilty too. In fact I'd say that a lot more people come out of this thinking he's guilty than innocent now. The truth is that it was a poor case against Adnan. I think someone in this thread said that he's the victim of a miscarriage of justice that happens to be guilty. Right now I sort of feel the same way. You can call it one-sided or whatever, but there are holes in the case and enough inconsistencies that it removes reasonable doubt. You have to be able to say, with certainty, that Adnan killed Hae based on the evidence available. That evidence is flimsy at best and relies heavily on the story of someone who changed it multiple times. Oh and you're wrong about the Innocence Project thing being a waste of time. They aren't hoping to pin the crime on a serial killer, but they use that to test the DNA. It's just an in. The point is that they can test the DNA and if it doesn't match Adnan then it means they can say he wasn't even there. It's what they meant when they told Koenig to think about the bigger picture. It's not about pinning the crime on someone else, it's about further distancing Adnan from it.
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Dec 19, 2014 09:44
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DrVenkman posted:
Exactly . I'm glad you point this out.
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Dec 19, 2014 14:08
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Just finished listening to the final episode and it was fine. I've enjoyed the series as a whole, even while sometimes finding it a little "NPR" and waffly at times. They've set themselves up a real challenge for next season. I've had Serial in mind as I've read about other cases in the last month. There's a solid history of people who were put away (and some subsequently exonerated) on the basis of an involved party cutting a deal, or even just because it was decided they fit the profile even in the lack of motive or evidence: * The murder of Brian Carrick: 8 years after this unsolved disappearance, a con looking for a break on some charges implicates a third party who is jailed for 26 years. There is no physical evidence and the most likely suspect has meanwhile dies of a drug overdose ... http://abcnews.go.com/US/happened-brian-carrick-inside-unsolved-case-illinois-teen/story?id=25842096 * The famous Thin Blue Line case: a 16-year-old is picked up for a cop-killing but blames it on an adult acquaintance. Despite the evidence pointing to the youth, the older man is picked up for the crime, seemingly because only he could be put to death for the crime. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Thin_Blue_Line_(1988_film) * Michael Morton: jailed for the murder of his wife, again despite the lack of physical evidence, as the cops "liked him" for the crime and his neighbours found him a bit cold and standoffish. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Morton_(criminal_justice) * Stefan Kiszko: a local eccentric is arrested for the sexual assault and murder of a young girl because police felt he was the right sort of person. Finding him in possession of "girlie magazines" and a bag of sweets only served as further evidence. After a gruelling interrogation, Kiszko confesses and is jailed. Belatedly, he turns out to have been impotent, lame and incapable of carrying out the crime. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Lesley_Molseed
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Dec 19, 2014 15:27
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Finished it up last night and enjoyed the series as a whole, but as a fellow journalist, there are a few things I hope to see in the coming weeks. 1. Hae's Family Finally Agrees to Speak: To me, them deciding against talking on the matter is one of the glaring holes in this podcast. We're missing very important insight from them on how they felt about Adnan. They can likely give us another side to his personality and whether or not they believe he had it in him to kill their daughter. 2. Jay Finally Agrees to Speak, Too: I'm not happy with him just telling Sarah that "Adnan did it" and that's it. He's the goddamn star witness in this case. Speak, dude. You're the most important part of this puzzle. Back yourself up! My hope is that the publicity this case has received will give Hae's family and Jay a chance to rethink their positions on not speaking on the matter. This has already happened once with the last episode and the gentleman she spoke with from the porn shop. He spoke merely because he heard the case was receiving boatloads of publicity and wanted to add his two cents. They don't even have to speak to Sarah, they can go speak to The Guardian or NYT or Time Magazine or someone. I just think the podcast is really missing Hae's family and Jay's insights and prevents us from truly making an informed judgment on Adnan and the case as as whole.
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Dec 19, 2014 15:49
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African AIDS cum posted:Here is why this podcast is disrespectful to the family of the victim, it is essentially a re trying of the case, but imagine a defense attorney being allowed to talk to a jury without objections, ignoring any rules of evidence, conducting cross (with no direct) on the key witnesses, and having the defendant testify without being crossed, and sure enough it seems like he might not be guilty. What family is ever going to participate in the re-examination of a case like this? They got what they wanted: a conviction so they can go on with their lives believing that justice was done for their daughter, regardless of whether or not Adnan actually killed her. Sometimes old wounds have to be reopened, and this show is definitely not an open and shut case (which you seem really invested in playing off as being gross entertainment for "dilettantes" or whatever overly-intellectual insult you want to throw around.) You seem to think it would be better to let this one go, even if Adnan didn't murder Hae, just for the sake of her family. That's not how the justice system should work. People shouldn't be sacrificed just to give peace to the grieving. house of the dad fucked around with this message at 15:59 on Dec 19, 2014 |
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Dec 19, 2014 15:53
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Technowrite posted:1. Hae's Family Finally Agrees to Speak: To me, them deciding against talking on the matter is one of the glaring holes in this podcast. We're missing very important insight from them on how they felt about Adnan. They can likely give us another side to his personality and whether or not they believe he had it in him to kill their daughter. I don't think Hae's family would be able to provide much insight into who Adnan is and was. Hae's family was very strict. She kept the fact that she was dating Adnan a secret. I think it is for the best they stayed away from any publicity. I don't think they would be able to contribute any additional facts, and shoving a microphone in their faces seems like it would just further reopen some nasty wounds. As for Jay, I think everyone wants him to speak out. I doubt he will though. There were so many inconsistencies in his testimony, why would he give a journalist an opportunity to rake him over the coals? While he may not be able to be charged with any further crimes it could open him up to civil suit. I have to wonder if he is still in touch with Josh though and had put him up too speaking out. That is rather conspiratorial though.
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Dec 19, 2014 16:14
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One thing I didn't like is that it took until the final episode to get a clearer picture of just who Hae was as a person, when Don described her as really confident and fearless. It would have been nice to get some interviews with her friends or spend more time on fleshing her out so we could get who she was beyond "murder victim who, uh, liked to have sex in cars a lot? I don't know much else about her."
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Dec 19, 2014 16:22
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Rabbit Hill posted:One thing I didn't like is that it took until the final episode to get a clearer picture of just who Hae was as a person, when Don described her as really confident and fearless. It would have been nice to get some interviews with her friends or spend more time on fleshing her out so we could get who she was beyond "murder victim who, uh, liked to have sex in cars a lot? I don't know much else about her." What? We had a really good picture of her. Her diary entries, interviews with her friends, stories about her family and how she was with and without Adnan... Did you miss an episode?
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Dec 19, 2014 16:57
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I don't think it's necessarily Sara Koenig's intent or even her fault, but it does have to feel really gross to Hae's family that this story that they probably were hoping was over has become some sort of trendy podcast that people are talking about and speculating over. It's one thing if it were turned into a news story or true crime book that might garner some discussion and then disappear after a while, but Serial has really taken off in popularity. I'm just hoping there aren't morons on Reddit or somewhere else on the internet who are going to try to find them and harass them about it.
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Dec 19, 2014 17:24
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Yeah, I'm worried about internet detectives annoying these people, too. That said, it's more likely than now that the truth may come out due to all the attention this is getting. As hinted at on the final episode, the story ironically make have more movement on it now that it is over and was such a surprise success. People who previously refused to comment on it are now feeling obliged to come forward, many other people looking over the facts of the case, etc..
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Dec 19, 2014 17:45
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DrVenkman posted:They aren't hoping to pin the crime on a serial killer, but they use that to test the DNA. It's just an in. The point is that they can test the DNA and if it doesn't match Adnan then it means they can say he wasn't even there. The absence of Adnan's DNA from the *samples they collected* absolutely does NOT mean that.
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Dec 19, 2014 18:19
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DrVenkman posted:Oh and you're wrong about the Innocence Project thing being a waste of time. They aren't hoping to pin the crime on a serial killer, but they use that to test the DNA. It's just an in. The point is that they can test the DNA and if it doesn't match Adnan then it means they can say he wasn't even there. It's what they meant when they told Koenig to think about the bigger picture. It's not about pinning the crime on someone else, it's about further distancing Adnan from it. The DNA evidence was found on items determined to be only tangentially related to the crime in the first place. Absence of Adnan's DNA on a bottle that could have been littered at any point in time does nothing to exonerate him. The only way it helps Adnan is if it does match that serial killer/other known murderer/somebody else Hae knew that happens to have DNA on file.
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Dec 19, 2014 18:25
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Schlitzkrieg Bop posted:I don't think it's necessarily Sara Koenig's intent or even her fault, but it does have to feel really gross to Hae's family that this story that they probably were hoping was over has become some sort of trendy podcast that people are talking about and speculating over. It's one thing if it were turned into a news story or true crime book that might garner some discussion and then disappear after a while, but Serial has really taken off in popularity. I'm just hoping there aren't morons on Reddit or somewhere else on the internet who are going to try to find them and harass them about it. I imagine this wasn't something the show's creators really expected. You hope people will listen and enjoy and speculate, but who the gently caress can predict what Reddit will choose to latch onto? It's definitely something they need to keep in mind when choosing their next season.
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Dec 19, 2014 19:07
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AngryBooch posted:The DNA evidence was found on items determined to be only tangentially related to the crime in the first place. Absence of Adnan's DNA on a bottle that could have been littered at any point in time does nothing to exonerate him. The only way it helps Adnan is if it does match that serial killer/other known murderer/somebody else Hae knew that happens to have DNA on file. Under the victim's fingernails: Only tangentially related to the crime.
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Dec 19, 2014 19:24
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Shitshow posted:The absence of Adnan's DNA from the *samples they collected* absolutely does NOT mean that. AngryBooch posted:The DNA evidence was found on items determined to be only tangentially related to the crime in the first place. Absence of Adnan's DNA on a bottle that could have been littered at any point in time does nothing to exonerate him. The only way it helps Adnan is if it does match that serial killer/other known murderer/somebody else Hae knew that happens to have DNA on file. This is taken from the transcript of the episode: quote:Deirdre Enright and her students have a motion in the works to test the DNA from Adnan’s case that wasn’t tested. The PERK kit, that’s the swabs from Hae’s body, the material from under her fingernails, the hairs found on her body. In a motion like this you have to give a viable reason to test this stuff. You have to show how it could potentially exculpate you and Deirdre’s reason is, she thinks the DNA might match some other guy. They're not testing the bottles etc, it's anything that was found on Hae's body that wasn't tested previously. If they can say that none of it matches Adnan, then they suddenly have a reasonable case to say that actually, he wasn't around her at all that day.
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Dec 19, 2014 19:31
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DrVenkman posted:They're not testing the bottles etc, it's anything that was found on Hae's body that wasn't tested previously. If they can say that none of it matches Adnan, then they suddenly have a reasonable case to say that actually, he wasn't around her at all that day. That's not what that quote says at all.
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Dec 19, 2014 19:41
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DrVenkman posted:This is taken from the transcript of the episode: The only thing that will help is a positive hit on a serial killer or another possible suspect. Whether or not Adnan shows up can only hurt him, not help him, because the absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence.
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Dec 19, 2014 19:49
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Raar_Im_A_Dinosaur posted:The only thing that will help is a positive hit on a serial killer or another possible suspect. Whether or not Adnan shows up can only hurt him, not help him, because the absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence. This is the opposite of how "innocent until proven guilty" is supposed to work. There was such an absence of evidence to begin with he never should have been convicted, and now he's basically hosed.
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Dec 19, 2014 19:56
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So, the Nisha call... If Nisha remembers the call happening AFTER Jay got the video store job, that would be after Hae's murder but before Adnan's arrest. If Jay was afraid of Adnan, why would they be hanging out together all buddy buddy and making flirty phone calls to girls?
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Dec 19, 2014 20:05
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TheJoker138 posted:This is the opposite of how "innocent until proven guilty" is supposed to work. There was such an absence of evidence to begin with he never should have been convicted, and now he's basically hosed. It would be, if that was the evidence they convicted him with. They never used it, so that's not really applicable here.
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Dec 19, 2014 20:13
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