|
Ravendas posted:Isn't there only a single reference sheet? Your group doesn't have a reference sheet for each player? Corbeau, you really spoil us.
|
#
?
Dec 20, 2014 21:05
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 10, 2024 15:31 |
|
|
Lorini posted:So I haven't seen that 'having a chance to win the game' be a factor in new players acceptance/enjoyment of the hobby. Now, I'm looking at a small sample size. Perhaps all of you guys out there see the need for newbies to win games their first time out and my experience is an exception. Again, though, I don't think newbies need to win, I just think most people will enjoy a game more if they don't feel their moves are all futile. What luck does in a game is make decisions meaningful even when the players are of widely different skill levels. If I play Go with someone ten stones weaker than me, it makes no difference to the outcome if he's playing the best game of his life, or hardly paying attention. But let's say we're playing backgammon instead. Now he's still going to lose most of the time, but if he plays well he might only need one perfect roll to win, whereas if he plays badly he might need five perfect rolls in a row. So even if he's still going to be the underdog no matter what he does, his decisions are meaningful. The luck factor is empowering not because he gets to win once in a while, but because his decisions actually have an impact on the game's outcome. Even if he doesn't actually roll his double 6's, he can tell that he made it close enough that he could have won if he had. And for many people, "If I do this, I'll have a one-in-six shot at winning" is a more satisfying metric for gauging performance than "if I do this, I'll only lose by 70 points rather than 72." xopods fucked around with this message at 21:22 on Dec 20, 2014 |
|
#
?
Dec 20, 2014 21:15
|
|
|
Kiranamos posted:Good idea, will definitely make the game have a fun, exciting scoring system instead of the dumb one that's included. The board for Concept is incredible though. It's Charades-style but the implementation is superb.
|
|
#
?
Dec 20, 2014 21:21
|
|
|
xopods posted:Again, though, I don't think newbies need to win, I just think most people will enjoy a game more if they don't feel their moves are all futile. Let's have your example: if someone rolls badly throughout the game and makes the most out of his bad rolls, he might be in a situation where he can never recover, even if he rolls well. Then, his decisions are meaningless, because no matter what he does, the game took his possibility of a win out of his hands. The people that it affects the most are the newbies that find the 'slowly build up experience' more enjoyable than the possibility of winning. That's what it comes down to: what does the newbie in question like best? And then, it becomes a matter of personal taste and the best thing you, as an experienced player, can do, is be able to analyse this new person well enough (or, before the game starts, ask the right questions) so that you can recommend something that will be the most suitable for that particular player. You are never gonna be able to always do this accurately, but it is better than saying 'randomness is always best for newbies' and then watching someone sitting glum-faced because that generalization doesn't actually cover how he actually reacts to randomness. This is largely what makes certain games safe bets, rather than playing something where the randomness is too high or too low.
|
|
#
?
Dec 20, 2014 21:29
|
|
|
Some Numbers posted:Your group doesn't have a reference sheet for each player? The guy that owns it wasn't much for doing anything beyond 'open box, punch tokens.' If it were me running Kemet, after knowing what I do now, I'd definitely add extra reference sheets, and probably print the faq that better explains some poorly worded powers.
|
|
#
?
Dec 20, 2014 21:30
|
|
|
King of Tokyo, Ticket to Ride, and Carcassonne have enormous RNG-based swings, but people hail those are fantastic introductory games (rightly so, they are). Every game with draw-based objectives (Takenoko, Lords of Waterdeep, Ticket to Ride) has an inherently "unfair" mechanic in which a player can draw cards which they nearly already have the resources to score. You can even just get lovely rolls five turns in a row in Catan and have no plays, or have the dice turn against you in King of Tokyo. Claiming that these "luck-based" situations make these games bad for new players is asinine. Who gives a poo poo if your opponent gets a phenomenal roll in King of Tokyo and knocks you out? I'm not talking about "competitive games that test skill alone and should have their own leagues and Elo rankings", I'm talking about getting your friend/girlfriend/wife into the hobby that you enjoy playing, and picking games that will make them want to play deeper, more complex games with you in the future.
|
|
#
?
Dec 20, 2014 21:52
|
|
|
Which is why it is important how the luck is implemented, rather than the presence or lack of it. What IS important is if luck removes potential actions from the player or not. With ticket to ride, sure you can be screwed by luck sometimes, but overall it doesn't restrict the actions you can do. With Catan, lovely luck DOES restrict actions. Which goes back to the argument that randomness is never bad in of itself, but IS bad when coupled with other bad mechanisms. High randomness, long length games are just as bad for newbies (or anyone else) as games that prevent you from catching up if you make a mistake 5 minutes into the game. poo poo, people aren't advising other people to get newbies started on Go or 18XX. They are advising people to target games to newbies, which you should be doing anyway. And some newbies will absolutely enjoy games that are low-luck and rely on them playing well to win and won't give a poo poo about 'having a chance to win'.
|
|
#
?
Dec 20, 2014 22:02
|
|
|
PRADA SLUT posted:getting your friend/girlfriend/wife into the hobby haha, get out you weirdo
|
|
#
?
Dec 20, 2014 22:05
|
|
|
Tekopo posted:Well that's just it, it comes down to what you 'think' is best for a lot of people. No, that's not the point I'm trying to make at all. I'm just pointing out some valid reasons for someone preferring a game with a luck factor, which don't involve them being unhealthily concerned with winning. That having a chance of winning can provide better feedback on your moves as you feel that probability go up and down. IF the random factors are well-implemented, as you say. EDIT: Maybe it's still not clear what I'm saying. But, like, if you have a losing position in chess, you're not going to be able to see a way to win, because there is no way to win. Whereas when there's luck, you can usually say "well, if I attack him over here, I'd need to roll a natural 12 to win. But wait, if I do this instead, then an 11 would be good enough. So that's the better move." xopods fucked around with this message at 22:19 on Dec 20, 2014 |
|
#
?
Dec 20, 2014 22:06
|
|
|
xopods posted:No, that's not the point I'm trying to make at all. I'm just pointing out some valid reasons for someone preferring a game with a luck factor, which don't involve them being unhealthily concerned with winning. EDIT: As per your edit, it is, again, individual. Some people are better able to see what can help them to win/lose better if there is less randomness (not a complete lack of randomness, just less). Some people are better able to visualise the difference in probabilities, as you say. But there isn't a catch-all. Tekopo fucked around with this message at 22:13 on Dec 20, 2014 |
|
#
?
Dec 20, 2014 22:10
|
|
|
Tekopo posted:Yes, and I'm not denying it is a valid reason, but you are denying that there are people out there that are new to the hobby that don't require that 'having a chance to win' (not outright winning, yes, I understood that part) and actually enjoy the 'learning experience' more. No, there isn't one size fits all, I think we all agree on that.
|
|
#
?
Dec 20, 2014 22:21
|
|
|
The Deleter posted:So is Cthulhu Wars the overpriced Kickstarter garbage it appears to be, or does it have anything of merit? I ask because I love asymmetric strategy games and this makes my nerd sense tingle, but I am like 80% sure I would be better off buying Quantum or Kemet instead. It's a faster-moving Chaos in the Old World with more varied asymmetry. The additional cost is due to having 60 big, detailed miniatures including a Cthulhu the size of your fist. 
|
|
#
?
Dec 20, 2014 22:35
|
|
|
Cthulhu Wars is also primed to have 17(!!!!!!!!) expansions, and I don't know about you but I can't see a game which has made an announcement like that and expect it to be remotely balanced.
|
|
#
?
Dec 20, 2014 22:43
|
|
|
I just read the rules PDF this morning and I'm looking forward to trying it out. I like the last-days-of-earth setting (it's what happens after the apocalyptic wars) and I like the gameplay ideas so far. I like the idea that the different powers seem powerful and immediately useful - no "+1% to your attack values" style upgrades so to speak. The guy seems to actually have put serious thought and development into it, I'm anxious to try it out and see what I think. The large miniatures could be seen as a gimmick but I'm a really visual and tactile person so I'm probably favorably biased until I give it a try to see for myself (I'm not actually just a sucker for miniatures though, miniatures-based games don't actually appeal to me much.)
|
|
#
?
Dec 21, 2014 00:37
|
|
|
So, I played my first games of Space Alert with two friends today, playing with one shared character. It was an absolute blast. I started with the first simulation, which we survived, though we didn't kill everything. Then we went to a later simulation, with serious threats, all 12 actions, and the ever important mouse wiggling. After that, we went for full games, with internal threats, and heroic actions, and died each time. One game would probably have gone pretty well, except for the fact that the first card my friend played moved him the wrong direction. By the end, instead of launching some cautionary missiles, he just looked out the window. We all had such a good time with it, and it is the most exciting board game I've played.
|
|
#
?
Dec 21, 2014 00:42
|
|
|
Galaxy Trucker is on android now!!
|
|
#
?
Dec 21, 2014 00:43
|
|
|
I recently grabbed The Witcher, which hasn't been mentioned in this thread yet. Really enjoyed the first few games and am looking forward to playing more. My only complaint (and it isn't a big one) is that there isn't really any feeling of grand goal or anything - you collect Victory Points and the highest at the end of the game wins, so it's mainly about making choices that get you VPs as efficiently as possible. I like the idea that the players all know each other and aren't actually enemies, but still are in competition. You don't hurt other players directly and might even co-operate in a limited way, but there are still ways to - for example - take advantage of obstacles they clear, or leave your messes for them to slog through. The OP of this new thread reminds us that it's important to talk more about why you liked something and explain what you found fun. I liked the theme and the way the gameplay reflected the "we're not actually enemies" angle. I liked how elegantly the turns work and how quickly and efficiently combat happens - it's not a brain burner like Mage Knight - yet still left me feeling like I had effective decisions to make. I liked how it was quick and easy to plan my next action and read the board state. I felt like I had a wide variety of ways to spend my time and turns, and the decisions were more about picking effective paths to VPs and what to do to best get there. Improvements to my character (development of skills, etc is just an action) were more of a "knowing when to stop" than how to get them. (The best level of improvement is the minimum amount that helps you get the VPs you are aiming for - any more is wasting actions you could be spending more profitably on something else.) When it comes down to it, I supposed I never felt backed into a corner or left without choices and I never felt screwed by dice or circumstances. When I finished playing I had ideas of what I could have done differently or better to squeeze out a few more VPs. But the game was interesting as well because here is an article where someone reflects on how badly the game is broken and how they'd fix it. (Short meaty version: add more "Screw Your Neighbor" / "Take That!" stuff, and get some "Whack The Leader" gameplay options going.) I liked the article in the sense that the author explained what he liked and didn't like and went a bit into why he did or didn't like those things. Naturally when I read it I was thinking "  is this guy on?" because of course I saw things entirely differently, but it is a good reminder that people like different things for different reasons. But you can't just throw up your hands saying everything is subjective, because games are (nominally anyway) crafted engines to deliver some particular experience. Tweaking is one thing but at some point what you probably really want is just a different game.
|
|
#
?
Dec 21, 2014 01:15
|
|
|
unpronounceable posted:So, I played my first games of Space Alert with two friends today, playing with one shared character. It was an absolute blast. In situations where you play the wrong arrow or play a card upside down, you can use the "tripping" rule. You shift all their actions one space to the right, effectively losing a turn, but get to play the action you intended. I've heard some people don't like it because the fun of the game is in losing horribly, which is true enough, but there's plenty of room to lose horribly without automatically throwing the whole game away over one minor error. The game is still more than hard enough, and losing a turn can still really screw up your plans.
|
|
#
?
Dec 21, 2014 01:24
|
|
|
McNerd posted:In situations where you play the wrong arrow or play a card upside down, you can use the "tripping" rule. You shift all their actions one space to the right, effectively losing a turn, but get to play the action you intended. I've heard some people don't like it because the fun of the game is in losing horribly, which is true enough, but there's plenty of room to lose horribly without automatically throwing the whole game away over one minor error. The game is still more than hard enough, and losing a turn can still really screw up your plans. I know about that rule, and I told them about it afterwards, but we all agreed that we wanted to play without it.
|
|
#
?
Dec 21, 2014 01:28
|
|
|
ChiTownEddie posted:Galaxy Trucker is on android now!! It's on sale until January 3rd. It's an outstanding port. It has great animations and the way they implement everything is smart and adds to the experience. The devs really mimic the humor of the game in the campaign. The game doesn't include any of the expansion pieces, but they say they're going to add more later. Unforunately, nothing can compete with fighting your friends hands to get what you want, but this comes close. It also runs well on my Nexus 5 and 7 (2012). Hearthstone runs like rear end on my N7, unfortunately.
|
|
#
?
Dec 21, 2014 01:28
|
|
|
Obviously it's up to you but I find that the fun is in losing horribly because you didn't quite make it to the gun in time/looking out of the window because you thought you'd dealt with everything/general incompetence as opposed to losing horribly because one guy played a red arrow instead of a blue and spent the whole mission wandering through the ship pressing buttons at random. If you don't use the trip rule, at least a few missions will be completely wasted because of it.
|
|
#
?
Dec 21, 2014 01:36
|
|
|
ChiTownEddie posted:Galaxy Trucker is on android now!! Yessssss.
|
|
#
?
Dec 21, 2014 01:50
|
|
|
Aston posted:Obviously it's up to you but I find that the fun is in losing horribly because you didn't quite make it to the gun in time/looking out of the window because you thought you'd dealt with everything/general incompetence as opposed to losing horribly because one guy played a red arrow instead of a blue and spent the whole mission wandering through the ship pressing buttons at random. If you don't use the trip rule, at least a few missions will be completely wasted because of it. This, and if it makes the game too easy, you can always raise the difficulty. You'll have just as many catastrophes but they'll be bigger and more elaborate (never mind more thematic). Everyone wins.
|
|
#
?
Dec 21, 2014 01:51
|
|
|
Aston posted:Obviously it's up to you but I find that the fun is in losing horribly because you didn't quite make it to the gun in time/looking out of the window because you thought you'd dealt with everything/general incompetence as opposed to losing horribly because one guy played a red arrow instead of a blue and spent the whole mission wandering through the ship pressing buttons at random. If you don't use the trip rule, at least a few missions will be completely wasted because of it. Playing a wrong card isn't general incompetence? I fully understand why the rule is there, and when we're better, we might use it, but we played without it, and had fun. You can't tell me I'm having fun wrong dammit  .
|
|
#
?
Dec 21, 2014 01:54
|
|
|
The Deleter posted:So is Cthulhu Wars the overpriced Kickstarter garbage it appears to be, or does it have anything of merit? I ask because I love asymmetric strategy games and this makes my nerd sense tingle, but I am like 80% sure I would be better off buying Quantum or Kemet instead. As Jedit mentions, it's like CITOW with even more asymmetry between factions but with no Old World fighting against you. I got in a demo game at Spiel and it played pretty quickly, an hour with 4 new players and only me having read up beforehand. Admittedly part of that was none of us realising the Yellow Sign was racking up a big lead until it was too late to stop them  Felt like it had a lot of potential tactical depth in choosing which upgrades to unlock and when to concentrate on expanding your power base vs face smashing. Also the minis look awesome in person, though I worry about them perhaps being a little too big to fit comfortably on the board in some areas. Haven't played Kemet or Quantum yet so can't compare them. Countblanc posted:Cthulhu Wars is also primed to have 17(!!!!!!!!) expansions, and I don't know about you but I can't see a game which has made an announcement like that and expect it to be remotely balanced. The majority of those 'expansions' are small modules you can add in to spice up the game and aren't designed to all be used together. Mostly they are extra Great Old ones which are mercenaries who fight for whoever summons them first (til they die then someone else can grab em). Then you have the High Priests who are just more powerful cultists everyone can have one of, some extra maps, and a few neutral monsters. I'd only consider the 3 new factions to be real expansions. At a later date they'll probably get grouped together into actual expansion packs. i.e. if you treat all of them as individual expansions then by the same rules Alhambra has like 24 expansions (+ promos).
|
|
#
?
Dec 21, 2014 02:13
|
|
|
xopods posted:EDIT: Maybe it's still not clear what I'm saying. But, like, if you have a losing position in chess, you're not going to be able to see a way to win, because there is no way to win. Whereas when there's luck, you can usually say "well, if I attack him over here, I'd need to roll a natural 12 to win. But wait, if I do this instead, then an 11 would be good enough. So that's the better move." I agree with your main point, but what you're saying about chess doesn't really hold true against humans. Even at the grandmaster level, if you read through their game analyses, you see them trying various ideas to force the opponent to play more precisely and improve their own position. If they didn't stand a chance once they were behind, they would just resign and save themselves the time and mental energy.
|
|
#
?
Dec 21, 2014 03:13
|
|
|
ChiTownEddie posted:Galaxy Trucker is on android now!! 
|
|
#
?
Dec 21, 2014 04:52
|
|
|
Can confirm that the galaxy trucker app owns. Might pick up the cardboard as a post-Christmas buy.
|
|
#
?
Dec 21, 2014 04:54
|
|
|
Galaxy trucker on android is teaching me I got some of the rules wrong too!
|
|
#
?
Dec 21, 2014 04:55
|
|
|
The Deleter posted:So is Cthulhu Wars the overpriced Kickstarter garbage it appears to be, or does it have anything of merit? I ask because I love asymmetric strategy games and this makes my nerd sense tingle, but I am like 80% sure I would be better off buying Quantum or Kemet instead. Even if its good you could buy Quantum AND Kemet AND Chaos in the Old World for the same amount of money. So basically only get it if you're irrationally obsessed with Chtulhu miniatures or very wealthy.
|
|
#
?
Dec 21, 2014 05:20
|
|
|
Sgt. Anime Pederast posted:Galaxy trucker on android is teaching me I got some of the rules wrong too! Anything in particular? I love GT but it seems like my plays of it are infrequent enough that I'm always misremembering something.
|
|
#
?
Dec 21, 2014 07:11
|
|
|
S.J. posted:Anything in particular? I love GT but it seems like my plays of it are infrequent enough that I'm always misremembering something. Apparently when putting together your ship, any piece already in place is fixed and new pieces have to match all connections. I always played it as you only had to match one, but this lead to hilarious events of ships falling apart after one hit that I thought was a feature.
|
|
#
?
Dec 21, 2014 07:27
|
|
|
Sgt. Anime Pederast posted:Apparently when putting together your ship, any piece already in place is fixed and new pieces have to match all connections. I always played it as you only had to match one, but this lead to hilarious events of ships falling apart after one hit that I thought was a feature. Oh, yeah. That's... definitely the first thing I teach to everyone 
|
|
#
?
Dec 21, 2014 08:17
|
|
|
Sgt. Anime Pederast posted:Apparently when putting together your ship, any piece already in place is fixed and new pieces have to match all connections. I always played it as you only had to match one, but this lead to hilarious events of ships falling apart after one hit that I thought was a feature. The way I was taught is that after you finish building, everyone checks each other's ship and if anyone has any connectors that don't fit, part of their ship falls off.
|
|
#
?
Dec 21, 2014 08:24
|
|
|
Is the Galaxy Trucker app any good for multiplayer, either single app or two devices? Does it work even if you've not played the physical version.
|
|
#
?
Dec 21, 2014 11:32
|
|
|
Sgt. Anime Pederast posted:Apparently when putting together your ship, any piece already in place is fixed and new pieces have to match all connections. I always played it as you only had to match one, but this lead to hilarious events of ships falling apart after one hit that I thought was a feature. Oh wow. You've been playing some kind of horrible mutant version of the game
|
|
#
?
Dec 21, 2014 12:06
|
|
|
Fat Turkey posted:Is the Galaxy Trucker app any good for multiplayer, either single app or two devices? Does it work even if you've not played the physical version. Yes to all of the above, in my experience.
|
|
#
?
Dec 21, 2014 13:21
|
|
|
Out of interest, does the tablet version of GT let you add illegal pieces?
|
|
#
?
Dec 21, 2014 14:43
|
|
|
thespaceinvader posted:Out of interest, does the tablet version of GT let you add illegal pieces? No, it does not.
|
|
#
?
Dec 21, 2014 14:47
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 10, 2024 15:31 |
|
|
Which is a little disappointing, really.
|
|
#
?
Dec 21, 2014 15:07
|
|