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Radish posted:I'm pretty sure we'll all know in a week. Also Garner being a nationally known icon is because he's become a symbol of police violence and immunity from prosecution. I'm sure most people in the US don't know who John Crawford is or the kid who was killed in Utah for holding a fake samurai sword (I admit I forgot without looking him up). I'm not saying the country shouldn't know who garner is. Obviously they should. I was just responding to the thought that dead cops are given some sort of sainthood status. No one knows their names and they'll be forgotten in a week.
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Dec 21, 2014 16:21
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ActusRhesus posted:Counterpoint: Eric Garner is now a nationally recognized name. Contrast with "two dead cops". Without googling, what are their names? I don't know. Eric Garner is nationally recognized name because cops murdered him and the system openly refused to hold them accountable. The killer of those two cops was hunted down and is dead. There's a huge difference.
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Dec 21, 2014 16:22
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ActusRhesus posted:I'm not saying the country shouldn't know who garner is. Obviously they should. I was just responding to the thought that dead cops are given some sort of sainthood status. No one knows their names and they'll be forgotten in a week. Lol. We know Garner's name because he was afforded no respect by the powers that be, on the other hand history has shown that the state will go to any length to find someone who killed a cop and prosecute them to the furthest extent of the law possible. Stop acting like the average citizen is given more respect than cops are, if that were true than the cops who murdered Garner would be awaiting trial right now.
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Dec 21, 2014 16:41
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Pope Guilty posted:Eric Garner is nationally recognized name because cops murdered him and the system openly refused to hold them accountable. The killer of those two cops was hunted down and is dead. There's a huge difference. Most people don't seem to see it like that though. You can see this in effect when people start posting the "black people/minorites beat old white people to death with hammers, where is the outrage?" stories that always pop up when things like Crawford/Rice/Garner/Brown/etc... happen even though the people that did that thing are always in jail awaiting trial.
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Dec 21, 2014 16:41
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ActusRhesus posted:Counterpoint: Eric Garner is now a nationally recognized name. Contrast with "two dead cops". Without googling, what are their names? I don't know. I'd rather be alive than have my name known for bring murdered by the police
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Dec 21, 2014 16:45
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WhiskeyJuvenile posted:I'd rather be alive than have my name known for bring murdered by the police So would I. That wasn't my point.
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Dec 21, 2014 16:52
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Psikotik posted:Do you need a larger shovel to put words into my mouth ? http://m.colorlines.com/archives/2013/11/black_man_repeatedly_arrested_and%20jailed_for_trespassing_at_his_workplace.html http://gawker.com/florida-man-literally-arrested-for-walking-while-black-1303208765 It's amazing how easy it is to get attested multiple times when you're a person of color. Should Earl Sampson be strangled to death as well?
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Dec 21, 2014 17:08
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This isn't going to end well.
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Dec 21, 2014 17:15
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The mere fact of a police officer being killed on the job, while sad, doesn't necessarily mean it was somebody specifically targeting cops like that dick in New York. Let's keep an eye on this as it develops and see where it goes instead of making assumptions. Pope Guilty fucked around with this message at 17:40 on Dec 21, 2014 |
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Dec 21, 2014 17:33
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"That blood on the hands starts at City Hall in the office of the mayor" is a pretty crazy thing for the head of the police union to say, but it doesn't seem like it's getting that much pushback
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Dec 21, 2014 17:38
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RedQueen posted:"That blood on the hands starts at City Hall in the office of the mayor" is a pretty crazy thing for the head of the police union to say, but it doesn't seem like it's getting that much pushback Yeah that comes off as totally crazy to me. Right now when two officers are dead people aren't really going to be critical of anything they do as a force but I'm hoping soon people are able to push back against something like that. It's ridiculous that Brown's step father is lambasted for emotional remarks but then the police union in anger starts saying stuff about how the mayor is responsible for the blood of slain officers and it's just business as usual.
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Dec 21, 2014 17:43
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Psikotik posted:As someone who has lost a friend who was a police officer to an ambush, gently caress you. I hope you never need the police. Maybe if Eric Garner had looked for as many jobs as he had arrests for selling loosies, he would be alive.
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Dec 21, 2014 18:48
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ActusRhesus posted:I'm not saying the country shouldn't know who garner is. Obviously they should. I was just responding to the thought that dead cops are given some sort of sainthood status. No one knows their names and they'll be forgotten in a week. Police often conceal their names when breaking the law or repressing protests, so it's no surprise that they enjoy a certain broad anonymity and interchangeability. It follows them in death.
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Dec 21, 2014 18:48
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SedanChair posted:Police often conceal their names when breaking the law or repressing protests, so it's no surprise that they enjoy a certain broad anonymity and interchangeability. It follows them in death. This is getting pathetic.
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Dec 21, 2014 18:58
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Rafael Ramos and Wenjian Liu. The names are definitely out there.
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Dec 21, 2014 19:04
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The Warszawa posted:Rafael Ramos and Wenjian Liu. The names are definitely out there. Wonder how pissed some of these police groups are going to get when the various protest groups hold vigils or whatever that include those guys.
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Dec 21, 2014 19:10
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Jack of Hearts posted:This is getting pathetic.
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Dec 21, 2014 19:11
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The Warszawa posted:Rafael Ramos and Wenjian Liu. The names are definitely out there. One of them had a 2 year old son and the other just married his wife 2 months ago. Oof.
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Dec 21, 2014 19:12
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Dec 21, 2014 19:13
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RedQueen posted:"That blood on the hands starts at City Hall in the office of the mayor" is a pretty crazy thing for the head of the police union to say, but it doesn't seem like it's getting that much pushback "Criticizing us encourages people to hurt us" is, unfortunately, an opinion that many officers honestly hold. Amarkov fucked around with this message at 19:21 on Dec 21, 2014 |
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Dec 21, 2014 19:19
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fknlo posted:Wonder how pissed some of these police groups are going to get when the various protest groups hold vigils or whatever that include those guys. As angry as it might make some of the people protesting, they have to know that this is the boldest and best thing they could possibly do in this situation.
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Dec 21, 2014 19:54
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Call me crazy, but we can go back and read Sun Tzu who's point was that to beat the enemy, you have to divide the enemy. You need to create cleavages that can be exploited to your advantage. Instead of people trying to minimize the death of two police officers, or use it to point out hypocrisy ('the police care more about their own than Brown & Garner'), they should reckon with the likely truth that it will probably unify and rally the police. This: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dj4ARsxrZh8 Does not work in the protesters' favor right now.
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Dec 21, 2014 20:16
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Omi-Polari posted:Call me crazy, but we can go back and read Sun Tzu who's point was that to beat the enemy, you have to divide the enemy. You need to create cleavages that can be exploited to your advantage. Instead of people trying to minimize the death of two police officers, or use it to point out hypocrisy ('the police care more about their own than Brown & Garner'), they should reckon with the likely truth that it will probably unify and rally the police. With a force as unified as the police, you have to concentrate on widening the division between them and the people. That appears to be taking place.
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Dec 21, 2014 20:23
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Police claim that these killings are a result of an anti-police atmosphere filled with anti-police protests, but the anti-police protests are a result of the out-of-control behavior of the police. If anything, this will wind up steeling the resolve of the police to bring down the hammer on any anti-police protest, which will probably result in more brutality, encouraging another nutcase with nothing to lose to get *his* 20 minutes in the sun by taking out a couple of cops. But on the other hand, I don't think police reform will happen until the police act so egregiously and out-of-control that politicians are *forced* to do something. You can already see the right-wing base rallying around the police and blaming Mike Brown and Eric Garner's families for this guy. It's only gonna get worse.
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Dec 21, 2014 20:23
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AVeryLargeRadish posted:Nah, the idea is that you arrest then release over and over or stage raids on the "wrong" address. It's easier to target family members and friends of family members than De Blasio directly. For instance, how would they feel if their secretary can't show up because the police made an "honest mistake" and raided their apartment, and whoops, looks like we destroyed all their possessions in the process! Better yet, target their kids. Yeah that is probably more likely to happen, but so many people in the city are braying for New York to become a literal police state
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Dec 21, 2014 20:24
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SedanChair posted:With a force as unified as the police, you have to concentrate on widening the division between them and the people. That appears to be taking place. My pessimistic side is telling me the police reform movement died yesterday with those two cops. bassguitarhero posted:You can already see the right-wing base rallying around the police and blaming Mike Brown and Eric Garner's families for this guy. It's only gonna get worse. BrutalistMcDonalds fucked around with this message at 20:33 on Dec 21, 2014 |
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Dec 21, 2014 20:25
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On Terra Firma posted:As angry as it might make some of the people protesting, they have to know that this is the boldest and best thing they could possibly do in this situation. I don't think it would make the overwhelming majority of protesters angry at all, and I agree that they should absolutely do it. While some police folks will get really pissed off there will be some who come to realize that it's not an anti-police movement.
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Dec 21, 2014 20:37
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Omi-Polari posted:But it's divided the people, too. Significant sections of the political right (particularly the Rand Paul/libertarian right) were pissed at the chokehold. This loses them. Does it? In any case, if you're framing Garner's death as a tax issue and ignoring race (like the Paul wing) you're not much use to begin with.
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Dec 21, 2014 20:53
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Omi-Polari posted:My pessimistic side is telling me the police reform movement died yesterday with those two cops. Before these 2 officers were killed police used Dinkheller as an excuse for their heavy hand responses. Want More Dark Humor? Dinkheller had a camera to help assess what happened yet police oppose them to this day. It's gonna take a lot more death on both sides before police even consider that reform is needed.
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Dec 21, 2014 21:08
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I'm honestly more afraid of cops than I am of everyday criminals. If I get robbed, beaten, etc by a causal criminal at least I won't get thrown into jail and charged with bullshit in top of it.
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Dec 21, 2014 21:11
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ActusRhesus posted:Normally I would say it's not uncommon to have a witness give "unexpected" testimony, and sometimes you have no choice but to put on a witness who would probably lie because part of their testimony is true. (Eg. I'll use one of my own cases...brother of victim in gang shooting was eyewitness. Can verify how many shooters, what shooters wore, how his brother died, etc. etc. but when asked "Did you recognize any of these men?" will say "Nope!" because snitches get stitches. We knew he was lying about that, but he was telling the truth about other things, and the jury will be instructed that they are free to believe all, some, or none of a victim's testimony.) HOWEVER, the diary entry was all kinds of red flags, and I doubt I would have called that particular witness. The one thing I will say in their (mild) defense, is that at least they included the racist diary bits to help the grand jury decide how credible she was. I doubt her testimony was taken seriously. It's really good to have a professional in this thread. Thanks for always contextualizing the topics of conversation.
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Dec 21, 2014 21:20
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fknlo posted:I don't think it would make the overwhelming majority of protesters angry at all, and I agree that they should absolutely do it. While some police folks will get really pissed off there will be some who come to realize that it's not an anti-police movement. It wouldn't make any honest protestors/reform seekers angry. Contrary to the views of some on this site, it is entirely possible to believe both that improved race relations on the part of the police and greater accountability are needed AND that shooting cops is a bad thing.
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Dec 21, 2014 21:20
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ActusRhesus posted:It wouldn't make any honest protestors/reform seekers angry. Contrary to the views of some on this site, it is entirely possible to believe both that improved race relations on the part of the police and greater accountability are needed AND that shooting cops is a bad thing.
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Dec 21, 2014 21:24
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tezcat posted:To be honest, I don't think anyone reasonable is asking for cops to be shot. It just seems like a strawman that some people like to prop up. The people speaking for the police seem to literally believe that if you aren't 100% behind everything they do you're asking for cops to be shot. This isn't a strawman people here are bringing up. It's what they seem to actually believe.
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Dec 21, 2014 21:31
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tezcat posted:To be honest, I don't think anyone reasonable is asking for cops to be shot. It just seems like a strawman that some people like to prop up. Some people are borderline saying that though tezcat posted:But people like yourself who fight against reform basically are just begging for citizens to arm themselves and protect themselves from cops who think they can just act any way they want, forgetting people have second amendment rights after all.
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Dec 21, 2014 21:36
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fknlo posted:The people speaking for the police seem to literally believe that if you aren't 100% behind everything they do you're asking for cops to be shot. This isn't a strawman people here are bringing up. It's what they seem to actually believe. Yea, its the typical, "Let us get away with everything we want or you literally want to murder cops" wedging you see everyday. Evidently, having some accountability and taking responsibility for your authority and actions means anyone can kill you on whim. Gee, I wonder why they think THAT. Xandu posted:Some people are borderline saying that though I am sure there is a difference between forcibly backing people into a corner while kicking them resulting in lashing out verses people actively suggesting going out to shoot cops on whim. It isn't like cops don't already shoot minorities when they already think they might have a gun even in an open carry state. Berk Berkly fucked around with this message at 21:43 on Dec 21, 2014 |
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Dec 21, 2014 21:36
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bassguitarhero posted:Police claim that these killings are a result of an anti-police atmosphere filled with anti-police protests, but the anti-police protests are a result of the out-of-control behavior of the police. If anything, this will wind up steeling the resolve of the police to bring down the hammer on any anti-police protest, which will probably result in more brutality, encouraging another nutcase with nothing to lose to get *his* 20 minutes in the sun by taking out a couple of cops. But on the other hand, I don't think police reform will happen until the police act so egregiously and out-of-control that politicians are *forced* to do something. You can already see the right-wing base rallying around the police and blaming Mike Brown and Eric Garner's families for this guy. It's only gonna get worse. This is basically what I'm seeing. The police are only going to move further down the direction they are going, and at this point change is only going to come when the police become such a negative force that they are a danger even to those in power and have to be muzzled, and that's only going to happen through more provocation. I'm not saying go shoot cops, I'm not saying it's a good thing to shoot cops, but I am saying that I think more cops are going to be shot before we see any changes for the better. They're too powerful and too insulated from the consequences of their actions, and your average person on the street cannot break that insulation through any method other than violence. It doesn't make it right or justify it, but the simple fact is that the system is so beyond broken that the only recourse left to the civilian population, the closest anyone is going to see to justice for rampant murder by police, is to murder police themselves. It's not about good or bad, it's simply what is. Sure, we have a movement, we have protests. The families of those who have already died though, they get no justice. Eric Garners family gets to watch people debate about whether he died in an illegal chokehold because he was fat while the officers get off scott free. The same goes for the families of innumerable other victims. They are told that their loved ones died because "police were following proper procedure" or because police did not feel like dealing with their mentally ill child or because they were in the way or in the wrong place at the wrong time. They have blatant lies fabricated about their loved ones to be smeared across national news. "Thug. Threat. Suicide by cop. Wanted to die. Deserved to die. The officer feared for their life. The officer did not get compliance. The officer emptied an entire clip of bullets" These are not truths that anyone should have to swallow. Words that we should not have to hear. It's easy to condem retaliatory violence against police when it is not your family, your friends, your community that has to swallow these things. Every black parent in America is asking if their teenager is going to be next. Their 12 year old. They aren't just experiencing fear. They are experiencing the justified anger that arises at the realization of that fear. That arises when you realize that this is the world you have to send your kids out into. Anyone remember that rancher dude who had a gun toting standoff with federal officials over cows and grazing lands? If these were white children being gunned down left and right, if this were directed at the white population as it stands now, you'd have open carry militias in every white neighborhood that could field enough people denying entry to police. You'd have actual stand offs and shoot outs. "Step on our privilege? Oh, gently caress no." That would be the response. But it's not happening to white people, not on a systematic level, so we can afford to sit back and be the calm rational ones who advocate peaceful protests.
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Dec 21, 2014 21:48
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Xandu posted:Some people are borderline saying that though Then there is the fact that police won't police themselves. So if you want justice for an officer murdering your daughter or son, can you expect the current legal system for justice? The answer is a big fat NO. So Xandu, whats the next step if the justice system wont help you, and the police are not about to reform? I mean at this point someone targeting cops is inevitable. If cops want people to not come to the conclusion that they will get no justice, they should make big bold moves to show that they are interested in justice. Like the NY Mayor tried to do..but you know...saying that there's an issue is bad. As seen by the backlash from his stance.
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Dec 21, 2014 21:50
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Its basically the institutional version of Ebola. As long as its killing brown people we don't know in places we don't care about it isn't really a problem. As soon as it starts hitting closer to home "OHDEARGOD! WHY DIDNT YOU STOP IT? DO SOMETHING!"
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Dec 21, 2014 21:54
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Vigilante justice is not justice and won't bring anyone back.
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Dec 21, 2014 21:54
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