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I'd enjoy a facebook post saying that, get all the angles on this here thought experiment.
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Dec 21, 2014 21:56
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SedanChair posted:With a force as unified as the police, you have to concentrate on widening the division between them and the people. That appears to be taking place. They're not always as unified as people think. Remember that the St. Louis police have a black police fraternal organization and a white one. Here in California, CHP and local sheriff's department got into a fight resulting in the CHP trying to arrest the jail bus crew and sheriffs arresting CHP officers for entering the bus while armed. I recently had a dispute in court with CHP officers lying about procedure and had local deputies lining up to testify against them.
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Dec 21, 2014 21:57
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Vahakyla posted:Vigilante justice is not justice and won't bring anyone back. Neither will police reform!
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Dec 21, 2014 21:57
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Berk Berkly posted:Its basically the institutional version of Ebola.
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Dec 21, 2014 21:58
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I'm just amazed at the contempt the NYPD police union has both for the safety of the general public, and actual working officers in trying to rile up the city into some kind of riot. MY CITY'S UNDER SIEGE was actually about Patrick Lynch' experiences.
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Dec 21, 2014 22:02
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Vahakyla posted:Vigilante justice is not justice and won't bring anyone back.
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Dec 21, 2014 22:33
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nm posted:They're not always as unified as people think. Remember that the St. Louis police have a black police fraternal organization and a white one.
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Dec 21, 2014 22:35
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Omi-Polari posted:I knew a cop who worked homicide investigations who said his urban department refused to do anything with any counties past a certain highway (that marked the beginning of rural country) because they were so obviously incompetent and corrupt. Right. And the prosecutors in this state who were involved in no poo poo prosecutorial misconduct were shunned like lepers until they retired or left the state. The idea that law enforcement is cool with racism and misconduct is a little off base, I think. But opening with "the whole system is corrupt" is inviting people who might actually agree with reform to get defensive and oppose you without hearing the meritorious parts of your position.
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Dec 21, 2014 22:39
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Vahakyla posted:Vigilante justice is not justice and won't bring anyone back. What this thread really, really needed was a brain dead platitude. Thanks! Mr. Belding fucked around with this message at 22:48 on Dec 21, 2014 |
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Dec 21, 2014 22:46
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Yawgmoft posted:What insane leaps of logic does one need to do to change "sometimes I fear for my son's safety, there needs to be reform" to "I want police officers to get killed"? Because every last one of the Joeys and Al's you hear calling into WFAN that live in places like Staten Island and Mill Basin think that DeBlasio is basically having tea with Al Sharpton every night and trying to figure out ways to hurt white people. And I'm not even kidding about this. These are the same people that have absolutely no sense of context when it comes to why the city went through the hard times in the 70's and 80's (and half of the 90's). They also, not surprisingly, think Rudy loving Giuliani is some sort of godsend that cleaned it all up single handedly. I mean really. It doesn't help that he had the gall to marry a black woman and actually reproduce. You should hear these crusty cafones talk about it. Mind blowing. People don't want to admit it, because NYC has a veneer of liberal utopia, but so many of the white people that have lived here in this area for a long rear end time are some of the most virulently racist human beings that have ever walked the Earth. Just horrible people.
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Dec 21, 2014 23:01
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Vahakyla posted:Vigilante justice is not justice and won't bring anyone back. Better to let a cop choke your son to death. The judge can bring him back, I'm sure. EDIT: VVV You're going to need stronger hands and a Clockwork Orange restraint chair to force words into my mouth but keep it up! VVV Alastor_the_Stylish fucked around with this message at 23:12 on Dec 21, 2014 |
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Dec 21, 2014 23:07
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Alastor_the_Stylish posted:Better to let a cop choke your son to death. What were people saying about this thread not advocating for dead cops?
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Dec 21, 2014 23:09
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ActusRhesus posted:Right. And the prosecutors in this state who were involved in no poo poo prosecutorial misconduct were shunned like lepers until they retired or left the state. The idea that law enforcement is cool with racism and misconduct is a little off base, I think. But opening with "the whole system is corrupt" is inviting people who might actually agree with reform to get defensive and oppose you without hearing the meritorious parts of your position. Hopefully just a few of those folks won't be stuck in reaction and will concentrate on distinguishing themselves from those corrupt individuals and departments. Of course, that is tough to count on when you are talking about a profession that is inherently reactionary. As for calling for the death of police, give me a break. this guy was just a crazy person and a murderer who wanted to put a shine of guerrilla resistance on his despicable actions. But surprise, that is the m.o. of a lot of young men who have resisted throughout history. They are not balanced or ethical individuals, but their reaction is certainly influenced by the impunity and terror their communities face.
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Dec 21, 2014 23:12
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So unless everybody in the thread gangs up on that poster this thread is advocating dead cops? edit: Like are we not allowed to have a thread about police reform because somebody poo poo posts and then somebody can come in claiming the whole thread wants dead cops so it can get gassed? clever. Nonsense fucked around with this message at 23:15 on Dec 21, 2014 |
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Dec 21, 2014 23:13
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TyroneGoldstein posted:Because every last one of the Joeys and Al's you hear calling into WFAN that live in places like Staten Island and Mill Basin think that DeBlasio is basically having tea with Al Sharpton every night and trying to figure out ways to hurt white people. This is a thousand times correct. I live on Staten Island (God Help me!) And Casual racism here is pretty much to be expected. I assume people here have the worst opinions about everything until they prove otherwise. The best thing you could do for this city is to blow the bridges and napalm the Island till nothing was left than salt the earth for good measure.
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Dec 21, 2014 23:14
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William Bear posted:It's really good to have a professional in this thread. Thanks for always contextualizing the topics of conversation. Yeah a real professional on the scene here chief.
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Dec 21, 2014 23:17
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tezcat posted:Just curious, did they ever catch the ambusher and if so what was his sentence. Just trying to see how your friend got justice. I mean we know who killed Garner and they still have not received punishment, where as your infrequent cop killer usually is killed or commits suicide. The guy who killed him, was killed at the scene. Happened earlier this year, Officer Melvin Santiago in NJ.
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Dec 21, 2014 23:22
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Psikotik posted:The guy who killed him, was killed at the scene. Happened earlier this year, Officer Melvin Santiago in NJ.
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Dec 21, 2014 23:35
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Nonsense posted:Yeah a real professional on the scene here chief. ActusRhesus posted:But opening with "the whole system is corrupt" is inviting people who might actually agree with reform to get defensive and oppose you without hearing the meritorious parts of your position.
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Dec 21, 2014 23:42
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As someone who has never been to New York, why is Staten Island like that? It seems like this weird dingleberry hanging off the city. Hanging off the giant butt that is NYC. 
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Dec 21, 2014 23:53
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Omi-Polari posted:As someone who has never been to New York, why is Staten Island like that? It seems like this weird dingleberry hanging off the city. Staten Island has a higher than average income relative to some of the other parts of the city so it's pretty much affluent over privileged white assholes.
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Dec 22, 2014 00:01
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ActusRhesus posted:What were people saying about this thread not advocating for dead cops? very nice burn 
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Dec 22, 2014 00:04
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Omi-Polari posted:As someone who has never been to New York, why is Staten Island like that? It seems like this weird dingleberry hanging off the city. I'm not a New Yorker either but a friend of mine grew up there in the 50's and 60's. When we were talking about Garner he said he wasn't suprised and that Staten Island was terrible even back when he was young. His implication was that it was where scared white people went to flee the city without actually going too far. I'm curious if that impression still holds currently (sure sounds like it).
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Dec 22, 2014 00:06
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Also the idea that "not inviting corrupt prosecutors to dinner" is an acceptable or ethical way to deal with corruption in the justice system is insane. Yup, I can hold my head high because even though I see misconduct occurring, I'll just ignore the problem until it moves somewhere else. Yup, quite ethical.
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Dec 22, 2014 00:10
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Omi-Polari posted:As someone who has never been to New York, why is Staten Island like that? It seems like this weird dingleberry hanging off the city. It goes back around 100 years at this point to what happened during the Great Migration and the ensuing urban renewal. Block busting by real estate firms and redlining by banks also contributed to this. See...Back when NYC was primarily white you had the Irish vs. the Italians with the Jews basically living side by side with them. Most of the Italians that moved here at the beginning of last century were basically hill people from Sicily so, of course, by the time they got here you already had WASP stock that ran everything and the Irish had normalized to a great extent as well. So who gets the boot to the rear end? The Sicilians (and other assorted South of Rome types like the Calabrese) who were basically considered negri even by their own northern counterparts. The Sicilians normalize, because they happen to be really industrious masons (among other things that they've made a whole bunch of movies about) and end up getting prosperity right as America is basically entering into it's industrial apex (from a spreading the money around perspective). Then you get a huge influx of blacks from the south that are desperately attempting to flee Jim Crow. They need jobs...they don't get them. They are poor and uneducated and even the Unions, which had fantastic amounts of power at the time, shunned them. The end result is a nice collection of very poor people living in tenements who happen to be black. And of course everyone hates them. Then urban renewal happens. Huge tracts of tenements are bulldozed, taking what were once pretty integrated, if not a little rough neighborhoods and replacing them with either highways or high rise, souless, public housing super blocks. The neighborhoods that remain are basically starting to darken in hue and this alarms the white people (including the Irish and Jews) living in these neighborhoods, so they basically skip out of town riding things like the GI Bill, racist housing covenants and actual access to banking services right to the suburbs. More nuance on that flight: Depending on where your family hailed from you had a specific 'track' that a lot of these people traveled as 'the old neighborhood' was 'destroyed' by the 'moulinyans'. If your family was from the south or (somewhat) center of Brooklyn and you didn't live in places like Bensonhurst or Bay Ridge you moved west towards Staten Island...Sometimes you went out to Jersey (Essex, Hudson and Morris County, depending on income level). If you hailed from the Bronx, you moved up the line to Westchester, Putnam and Rockland counties (I hesitate to put Orange or Dutchess and Ulster in this group, but it did happen). If you were in Queens and didn't live in the more Nassau side of Queens, you moved out to Nassau and sometimes even Suffolk county. Now what does this have to do with Staten Island? Well, it's about kitchen table talk that's been going on for decades at this point. Most of the people that migrated like this didn't really understand the contextual issues that were hitting the city say from the late 60's into the 90's. They didn't chalk the decay and poverty up to a perfect storm of bad social policy, racism and declining industrial America...it was all because of the blacks that had moved in and 'destroyed' the 'neighborhood.' These people and their descendants cluster in places like Staten Island...and Mill Basin...and Howard Beach...and hell even in places like Whitestone and Forest Hills.. Rudy Giuliani is one of these loving people, I don't care how many thick neck silk socked cafones he prosecuted. It's rote ignorance. KomradeX posted:Staten Island has a higher than average income relative to some of the other parts of the city so it's pretty much affluent over privileged white assholes. That have Blue collar educations. This is a very important aspect of things. They also provide the feed stock for NYPD legacy recruits as well as other city services.
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Dec 22, 2014 00:19
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ActusRhesus posted:What were people saying about this thread not advocating for dead cops? Ironically it was something like this. Even implying there might be a situation where it was justifiable to keep cops from killing family and/or innocents = Lust for Cop Death
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Dec 22, 2014 00:21
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ActusRhesus posted:Right. And the prosecutors in this state who were involved in no poo poo prosecutorial misconduct were shunned like lepers until they retired or left the state. The idea that law enforcement is cool with racism and misconduct is a little off base, I think. But opening with "the whole system is corrupt" is inviting people who might actually agree with reform to get defensive and oppose you without hearing the meritorious parts of your position. Honest question, what do you think would be a good way to reach the people in the system who might agree with reform then? 'Cause I've been thinking that part of what we need to do is protect and empower the good, reform-minded people in the system—the would-be Serpicos, Schoolcrafts, and Hornes who are too scared to speak up—and maybe let them take a leading role in reforming from within. Then reform doesn't have to be framed as "anti-cop" outsiders punishing and hurting cops, but as helping (good) cops.
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Dec 22, 2014 00:23
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Berk Berkly posted:Ironically it was something like this. Then there is the point that ActusRhesus can't differentiate between a "post" and a "thread" which speaks ill of her/his profession and/or grasp of the English language. tezcat fucked around with this message at 00:47 on Dec 22, 2014 |
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Dec 22, 2014 00:45
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TyroneGoldstein posted:It goes back around 100 years at this point to what happened during the Great Migration and the ensuing urban renewal. Block busting by real estate firms and redlining by banks also contributed to this. This is actually some of the best ways I've seen it put because it is and this thinking gets passed down to their kids who are now in their 20s who will rage against Dinkins when they were barley old enough to remember the city when he was Mayor. TyroneGoldstein posted:That have Blue collar educations. This is a very important aspect of things. They also provide the feed stock for NYPD legacy recruits as well as other city services. This is a very important aspect to, it's shocking at how many older people you meet on Staten Island who have at best a High school education but got good paying jobs in the 80s, early 90s, especially city jobs, and just are out of touch with how life is now. There is also a deep under current of anti-intellectualism that runs on the Island, I went to the CUNY College of Staten Island and the number of people who drove their expensive cars that mommy and daddy bought them and just didn't want to be there was aggravating for anyone who wanted an actual education. They were all there cause they were told that's what they had to do, or just their so they could get the requirements to be a cop, or just long enough till daddy got them a job and they were some of the most intellectually incurious people you would meet, makes sense why Staten Island tacks so conservative. And everyone knows a cop, or has a family member who is a cop. I was friends with a guy who's brother is a cop and every time you criticized the police he'd practically get in your face going on about how dare you talk bad about his family. It has some of the most noxious people and I'm ashamed when I tell other people in the city I'm from there, and I've never once had someone not say they were sorry when I told them I was from Staten Island.
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Dec 22, 2014 01:18
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KomradeX posted:This is actually some of the best ways I've seen it put because it is and this thinking gets passed down to their kids who are now in their 20s who will rage against Dinkins when they were barley old enough to remember the city when he was Mayor. You basically summed it up. It's an epidemic and it's the same way up here in various parts of Lower Westchester from the people who fled the Bronx, parts of Manhattan or even have lived here since the 1940's. A lot of regular guys who made an assload of money in construction and the trades back when you could buy a house in places like New Rochelle or Harrison for a song (and could actually get the bank to give you a loan for it). Those houses are worth half a million and up now. They buy their kids Bimwahs and STILL go on and on about 'the lazy blacks.' I'm of (very) mixed heritage and I have these people in my family, so I can speak first hand on the subject. And as far as funneling to the NYPD and the MTA, oh yeah..definitely. You know, it's funny. I lived in Florida for all my teenage years and college and the deputies, all southern, that pulled me over were always polite...Yeah, they'd ding me for stuff like going 2 over the limit because that's what Florida cops do, but they were always nice. I got into some shoplifting trouble in High School and went on a ride along with one of them and they were actually really nice. Yeah, the profiling down there was for ravers rather than race and FL was a bit different than the 'deep' South, but they were still polite. I come up here and it's a completely different story. Now all those Joeys and Anthony's are police in Westchester and hoo boy...Unbelievable. Funny thing is, the Jewish side of my family, all from Queens, are all police, so I know that side of the game too.
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Dec 22, 2014 01:58
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quote:A veteran police officer was shot and killed — and even run over — early Sunday in Florida by a wanted man who felt like a "caged rat" and didn't want to go back to prison, officials said. Second Florida PD death of the year involving gunfire near as I can tell. Party Plane Jones fucked around with this message at 02:28 on Dec 22, 2014 |
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Dec 22, 2014 02:20
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46 cops have been killed this year. Sad, but wouldn't read much into it as far as a trend. http://www.newsday.com/news/new-yor...s-say-1.9737023 "NYPD retraining program may be delayed in light of police 'assassinations,' source, experts say."
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Dec 22, 2014 02:28
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ActusRhesus posted:What were people saying about this thread not advocating for dead cops? So why are you advocating for dead cops then? Or are you, someone who has posted in this thread, not included in your blanket statement?
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Dec 22, 2014 02:30
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tezcat posted:Well at least it helps confirm that the issue is not just with Officers, but the judicial part of the process as well. Complete with the "Boo Hoo, wed help with reforming a racist justice system but those guys were really mean to me" bit. You really think that's how it works?
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Dec 22, 2014 02:33
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Berk Berkly posted:Ironically it was something like this. No. He was advocating for vigilantism.
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Dec 22, 2014 02:34
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Booourns posted:So why are you advocating for dead cops then? Or are you, someone who has posted in this thread, not included in your blanket statement? Hi. I'm going to oversimplify a person's position so I can avoid addressing the substance of their comment.
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Dec 22, 2014 02:36
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Kinda doublepost.
TheSpiritFox fucked around with this message at 02:47 on Dec 22, 2014 |
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Dec 22, 2014 02:36
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Trabisnikof posted:Also the idea that "not inviting corrupt prosecutors to dinner" is an acceptable or ethical way to deal with corruption in the justice system is insane. Yup, I can hold my head high because even though I see misconduct occurring, I'll just ignore the problem until it moves somewhere else. Yup, quite ethical. It's a little more than that. Try a collective shunning by the entire legal community. Since here prosecutors are union it's almost impossible to fire them, but you can certainly make things so unpleasant that they see early retirement or transfer to academia as a better future.
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Dec 22, 2014 02:38
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Cichlid the Loach posted:Honest question, what do you think would be a good way to reach the people in the system who might agree with reform then? Great question and one I wish I had the answer to. Remember a lot if people do go into law enforcement and prosecution out of a sincere desire to protect victims of crime, and a disproportionate number if victims are also minorities. Having a better trust between victims and witnesses and cops would make our job a lot easier.
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Dec 22, 2014 02:42
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ActusRhesus posted:What were people saying about this thread not advocating for dead cops? Sometimes I really want to know whether someone's a gimmick or an actual parody of a human being. Sometimes it's just fun to wonder without knowing  Booourns posted:
ActusRhesus posted:Hi. I'm going to oversimplify a person's position so I can avoid addressing the substance of their comment. You mistook his mocking for serious oversimplification of your oversimplification of thread content and then proceeded to avoid the substance of his mocking by attempting to call him out on his oversimplification of your oversimplification and tacking on an accusation of avoiding the substance of your comment. A comment which incidentally had zero real substance. Are you really that stupid or are you really, really good at pretending to be that stupid? You are the tootsie roll pop of the internet.
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Dec 22, 2014 02:46
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