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Another thing to point out about Sam's position as a servant is that it mirrors the very Christian idea (present in both LotR and Sil) that humility is a great virtue and pride a great (actually the original) sin. So Sam's acceptance of his servile position is like a good Christian accepting his place as a servant of God. That's why Sam ends up the hero of the story. Not that this makes the books any less classist, it's just one thing that was definitely on Tolkien's mind.
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Dec 19, 2014 15:25
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End Of Worlds posted:The fact that the subservient laborer who calls Frodo his Master might be brown does not actually advance the cause of Tolkien Not Being A Racist, dude Personally I harp on it because there are so many people trying to Prove Tolkien Was a Racist in the same mold as KKK members. It's not that he didn't have racist stuff, it's just that there's also nuance there and with the changing 20th century and the revelations about the Axis pogroms, I'd be stunned if it wasn't at least a little bit in his mind. I guess I'm just really sick of seeing the Tumblrinas parroting talking points ad infinitum on and off the net. College freshman syndrome extended way past its expiration date. Hieronymous Alloy posted:Yeah, that's the thing and why I think the "Sam was Ethnic" theory above has a little weight; I'm not sure we can just dismiss it as American misinterpretation. Class and race aren't entirely separate notions in Tolkien's world -- the upper-class hobbits all seem to be Fallohide, with correspondingly fair hair, etc. And that view of inherited social class, "blood," was part of Tolkien's worldview and (let's face it) part of his contemporary English worldview for that matter (probably stretching all the way back to the divide between the Normans and Saxons, if not before). The difference between aristocratic Frodo and working class Sam is reflected in Gondor as well with Aragorn the racially pure Dunadain and...everyone else? who are stated to be racially different from the Númenóreans. And it's not like they always get treated as lesser beings in need of being patronized. The Rohirrim are very well respected in the books and they were only tangentially related to the colonists. Sam is a simple guy but the quest hung on his humility and dedication to success, it wasn't all about his idealized relationship with Frodo. He also wanted to protect the Shire. And as mentioned, Legolas et Gimli, breaking barriers for gay elves and dwarves everywhere. So it was a repeating theme, that racial differences are there but also don't determine what kind of person you are. Sam is not good in spite of his racial and class level and upbringing, he is good because he is different, because it arms him against evil in a unique way that Frodo didn't have. The Rohirrim are noble and treat their prisoners with respect because they are Rohirrim and that they aren't Númenórean doesn't negate that. They are good because they choose to be. I'm not sure where I'm going with this anymore expect to echo that it's more complicated than parroters make it seem, and that the reaction of "Tolkien was not racist" is more of a reaction to idiot Americans wetting themselves and trying to force their narrative of racism on other people, where they try to cast Tolkien as something he wasn't.
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Dec 19, 2014 16:36
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Did Tolkein ever provide commentary on the Eagles? Given how often " hurr why don't the Eagles fly The Ring to Mount Doom?" is brought up, did Tolkein ever provide an explanation or even come out and admit 'yeah that's a plot-hole, my bad?'
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Dec 19, 2014 16:54
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SirPhoebos posted:Did Tolkein ever provide commentary on the Eagles? Given how often " The official Tolkien-sourced explanations range from "they won't fly over land where men are, because men shoot at them with bows" in The Hobbit to a very convoluted argument about how the Eagles are essentially Angels (just like Gandalf!) and are thus to some extent bound to non-interference. Then there's the problem that the Eagles would have been very visible targets (just like the Nazgul proved to be). There's also this fan theory over on Reddit, which is basically that Gandalf meant to Go Eagle the whole time but it all fell apart in Moria. Hieronymous Alloy fucked around with this message at 17:02 on Dec 19, 2014 |
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Dec 19, 2014 16:58
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The Eagles were just assholes
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Dec 19, 2014 17:11
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SirPhoebos posted:Did Tolkein ever provide commentary on the Eagles? Given how often " Letter 210 posted:I think [the Eagles] are a major mistake of Zimmerman, and without warrant. The Eagles are a dangerous "machine". I have used them sparingly, and that is the absolute limit of their credibility or usefulness. The alighting of a Great Eagle of the Misty Mountains in the Shire is absurd; it also makes the later capture of Gandalf by Saruman incredible, and spoils the account of his escape. One of Zimmerman’s chief faults is his tendency to anticipate scenes or devices used later, thereby flattening the tale out. So basically, yeah, they were a deus ex machina even in his mind, but only to be used when they're really needed (which if you want an in-universe reason, you could argue is also Manwe's reasoning).
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Dec 19, 2014 17:30
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SirPhoebos posted:Did Tolkein ever provide commentary on the Eagles? Given how often " I always just assumed that a) Eagles are really conspicuous and flying the Ring into Mordor would sabotage the whole stealth angle, b) the Eagles play a thematic role as divine grace: the unhoped-for intervention of God at the moment of greatest need, when one has expanded the fullness of one's strength in the cause of righteousness and can no longer go on, and c) that would kill the plot. chernobyl kinsman fucked around with this message at 18:02 on Dec 19, 2014 |
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Dec 19, 2014 18:00
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Regarding Tolkien and race, there's also the fact that race was regarded pretty differently in England at the time - it wasn't just black, white, brown, etc. It was "the English race", "the German race", "the Jewish race", every country and culture - what we might today think of as an ethnicity - was considered to be a separate "race". The idea of the Welsh, Cornish, English, and Scottish people all living together on the island of Britain might easily inspire the idea of Stoor, Fallohide, and Harfoot Hobbits living together in the Shire. All Tolkien's Free Peoples had this kind of thing going on, too. The various western Mannish peoples all trace their lineage separately back to the three First Age tribes of Men who fought against Morgoth. The Elves have their various peoples categorized by how far they got on the journey to Aman before they called it quits or came back, and the Dwarves have seven distinct clans based on which of the Fathers they are descended from, who all live in different parts of the world. It's part of the paradigm of anthropology of Tolkien's era. We think differently about race today.
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Dec 19, 2014 18:41
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End Of Worlds posted:I always just assumed that a) Eagles are really conspicuous and flying the Ring into Mordor would sabotage the whole stealth angle, b) the Eagles play a thematic role as divine grace: the unhoped-for intervention of God at the moment of greatest need, when one has expanded the fullness of one's strength in the cause of righteousness and can no longer go on, and c) that would kill the plot.
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Dec 19, 2014 18:44
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The Eagles were closely associated with Manwe and were his messengers so I just assume that they probably wouldn't have been down to transport the ring because the Valar made it clear not to help the people of Middle-Earth and "solve all their problems" for them. I would imagine the Eagles would have picked up on that or been told that directly. I mean yeah it's still a big plot hole that Tolkien never fleshed out in any substantial way but that's how I explain it to myself.
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Dec 19, 2014 19:07
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Re: Sam being not white, I think whoever pointed out the American/English divide is right. As an American, race and class are so strongly tied historically that describing Sam as being brown skinned immediately reads as a different race to me. I'm sure English readers fall more strongly on the tanned white laborer side just due to their perception of class relationships in general/in the time Tolkien was writing. I'd be curious to see what perception of Sam a reader from a non majority white country has. Unrelatedly, can the Eagles fly across the sea or are they stuck in middle earth? Their noninvolvement in most of the war of the ring might make more sense if they could just peace out if Sauron won.
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Dec 19, 2014 19:35
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Early in the Silmarillion it said that hawks and eagles and other birds would fly in to Valinor to bring news to Manwe, so I guess they could gently caress off and fly away if they wanted to.
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Dec 19, 2014 19:41
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Lord Hydronium posted:There's a bit from a letter he wrote regarding a Lord of the Rings film treatment: Interesting, I had no idea a film version was being considered when Tolkein was still alive. Any place I can find more details?
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Dec 19, 2014 19:54
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:The official Tolkien-sourced explanations range from "they won't fly over land where men are, because men shoot at them with bows" in The Hobbit to a very convoluted argument about how the Eagles are essentially Angels (just like Gandalf!) and are thus to some extent bound to non-interference. Then there's the problem that the Eagles would have been very visible targets (just like the Nazgul proved to be). Personally I see it that any flying thing that size would want to stay pretty close to mountains rather than trying to take off from flat ground, which would mean a route going right past Isengard/the Gap of Rohan and then flippetyflap along the White Mountains to Minas Tirith and a hop over to the Ephel Duath right in line with Minas Morgul - they couldn't make themselves more obvious if they tried. Sneaky hobbit commando mission was definitely the smart move.
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Dec 19, 2014 20:24
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SirPhoebos posted:Interesting, I had no idea a film version was being considered when Tolkein was still alive. Any place I can find more details?
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Dec 19, 2014 20:29
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One more complicating thing to note on the Frodo/Sam master/servant dynamic is that, to my recollection, Frodo never ordered Sam to do anything (aside from the highly dramatic moment of telling him to go home). In fact I can hardly think of him even asking a favor in a "be a good fellow and" kind of way.
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Dec 19, 2014 23:22
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Data Graham posted:One more complicating thing to note on the Frodo/Sam master/servant dynamic is that, to my recollection, Frodo never ordered Sam to do anything (aside from the highly dramatic moment of telling him to go home). In fact I can hardly think of him even asking a favor in a "be a good fellow and" kind of way.
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Dec 19, 2014 23:36
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The other reason why not the Eagles is because Sauron had an air force.
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Dec 20, 2014 08:53
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Bongo Bill posted:The other reason why not the Eagles is because Sauron had an air force. Yes, but how large was the air force? We only know of the fellbeasts (correct me if I'm wrong). I guess it's possible Sauron had other creatures being cooked up in his lab, but the Eagles should surely outnumber the fellbeasts.
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Dec 20, 2014 10:44
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Honestly wtf do you think sauron would do if he saw 100+ eagles comin' his way. I bet he fuckin' expected a frontal airborne assault. Also eagles gotta stop for fuckin' food and such. Love the smell of bird poo poo in the morning. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TPT3RFTpSUw Screaming Eagles, airborne! Hooah! gonna bag me a motherfuckin orc
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Dec 20, 2014 11:10
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Oracle posted:It was a social signifier. Back in the day, if you were tanned it meant you worked outdoors and thus were some kind of field hand or manual laborer ergo less-than. If you had milky white skin and soft hands you could afford to sit around inside all day and do nothing therefore must be rich/upper class. And this is still a thing in most developing nations (China being a prime example), to the point where they use umbrellas to keep the sun out as much as they keep the rain out (think similar to Gone with the Wind).
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Dec 20, 2014 16:15
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So I'm fairly familiar with LotR and the Hobbit, but I've just never been able to stomach the style of the Silmarillion, although I am fairly familiar with some of the stories, or at least the broad strokes therein. So what's all this about, then, that I have heard of there having been like literal APCs and missiled and ironclad battleships at Numenor and/or the Fall of Gondolin. If Sauron had these, then, why isn't he busting them out during the Ringwar or the Battle of the Last Alliance?
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Dec 20, 2014 16:48
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I don't know what you are reading. There is no mechanized warfare.
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Dec 20, 2014 16:49
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Yeah, the closest you'll come to APCs are siege towers. Numenor probably had pretty sweet ships though, maybe mythril-clad if they were feeling particularly gratuitously wealthy, or it was a King's Flagship. Most of what we know of Numenor comes from the appendices and the Silmarillion. Does anyone else like the theory that the Arkenstone was related to the Silmarils somehow? I always pegged it as a lesser work that Feanor chucked into a handy volcanic chasm because he didn't like it. One Silmaril in the sky as a star, one in the molten earth, and one in the sea. Shouldn't the sea one have made its way back to Valinor by way of the Sea-God? Maybe they're keeping it for the remaking of the world.
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Dec 20, 2014 17:31
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The Silmarils are destined to be lost until the Final Battle and then they figure into the next coming somehow. But not even the Valar know what is to become of them I think, except maybe Manwë. The Arkenstone was found under the Lonely Mountain but since it was cut and polishes by the dwarves that puts the relation to the Silmarils in doubt. Nothing textual really supports it.
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Dec 20, 2014 17:41
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euphronius posted:I don't know what you are reading. There is no mechanized warfare. He probably read an excerpt from the Book of Lost Tales II which had some early drafts of the Fall of Gondolin, he did write mechanized warfare in there at one point: quote:...beasts like snakes and dragons of irresistible might . . . Some were all of iron so cunningly linked that they might flow like slow rivers of metal or coil themselves around and above all obstacles before them, and these were filled in their innermost depths with the grimmest of the Orcs with scimitars and spears; others of bronze and copper were given hearts and spirits of blazing fire, and they blasted all that stood before them with the terror of their snorting or trampled whatso escaped the ardour of their breath; yet others were creatures of pure flame that writhed like ropes of molten metal, and they brought ruin to whatever fabric they came night, and iron and stone melted before them and became as water, and upon them rode the Balrogs in hundreds; and these were the most dire of all the monsters which Melko devised against Gondolin. But all of that was eventually removed. pixelbaron fucked around with this message at 19:32 on Dec 20, 2014 |
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Dec 20, 2014 19:28
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RoboChrist 9000 posted:So I'm fairly familiar with LotR and the Hobbit, but I've just never been able to stomach the style of the Silmarillion, although I am fairly familiar with some of the stories, or at least the broad strokes therein. If you want a fan origin for the Arkenstone: Perhaps it was an effort to make something like the Silmaril they put in the dwarven necklace and then tried to keep, and to some extent they succeeded? pixelbaron posted:He probably read an excerpt from the Book of Lost Tales II which had some early drafts of the Fall of Gondolin, he did write mechanized warfare in there at one point:
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Dec 20, 2014 22:08
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Orcs and Wizards both had some kind of explosives: http://middle-earth.xenite.org/2013/02/07/is-there-gunpowder-in-middle-earth/
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Dec 20, 2014 22:49
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Wasn't part of Saruman's arms program (for want of a better expression) the development of gunpowder? Or is the memory of the second LOTR film distorting my memory of the book?
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Dec 21, 2014 17:05
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There is an explosion in Helm's Deep, yes, but it is attributed to sorcery rather than fireworks. Gimli and some men of Rohan are driven back into the glittering caves by the breaking of the wall, and you don't learn they lived until the battle is over. Gimli's helm is split by an Uruk blade, but he comes out singing because of the aforementioned glittering caves. I choose to believe Gandalf knew how to make what we would think of as fireworks and Saruman grabbed a few and learned the explosives part but ignored the 'is pretty and blows up far in the sky safely' part. Does anyone know of any decent fanwork that expands on Galadriel's story? VanSandman fucked around with this message at 17:18 on Dec 21, 2014 |
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Dec 21, 2014 17:16
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^ Yes, of course. I forgot about Gandalf's famous fireworks.... E: Did the dwarves of Moria also have explosives. All that stuff about delving too deeply and unearthing the Balrog etc - did some of that come about through gunpowder or just greed? Josef K. Sourdust fucked around with this message at 19:32 on Dec 21, 2014 |
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Dec 21, 2014 18:20
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Josef K. Sourdust posted:Wasn't part of Saruman's arms program (for want of a better expression) the development of gunpowder? Or is the memory of the second LOTR film distorting my memory of the book? It's not spelt out what the 'blasting fire from Isengard' is exactly, but the gunpowder interpretation is pretty obvious what with Saruman's theme of industrialization. It might also be a reference to Paradise Lost, which has Satan inventing cannons to use during the war in heaven (I think there might have been an existing tradition of the devil inventing gunpowder that Milton was drawing on as well.)
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Dec 21, 2014 20:08
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Josef K. Sourdust posted:^ Yes, of course. I forgot about Gandalf's famous fireworks....
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Dec 21, 2014 20:51
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VanSandman posted:I choose to believe Gandalf knew how to make what we would think of as fireworks and Saruman grabbed a few and learned the explosives part but ignored the 'is pretty and blows up far in the sky safely' part. I have always thought that Gandalf's mastery of fire, both in explosive pine-cones and in pretty fireworks, was a result of his bearing Narya, the Ring of Fire. From a fantasy epic standpoint, what is the practical difference between gunpowder and sorcerous "blasting fire"?
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Dec 21, 2014 22:38
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Isn't there a mention somewhere of other fireworks though (maybe Dale-made?) that aren't as good as Gandalf's? Not to say that his aren't the best because of Narya, but it would imply that gunpowder is a general thing that exists.
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Dec 22, 2014 00:39
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BatteredFeltFedora posted:I have always thought that Gandalf's mastery of fire, both in explosive pine-cones and in pretty fireworks, was a result of his bearing Narya, the Ring of Fire.
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Dec 22, 2014 01:09
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Things in Tolkien are called "magic" because humans don't know how to do them. Elves and, to a lesser extent, dwarves don't distinguish between magic and nonmagic things.
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Dec 22, 2014 03:22
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Bongo Bill posted:Things in Tolkien are called "magic" because humans don't know how to do them. Elves and, to a lesser extent, dwarves don't distinguish between magic and nonmagic things.
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Dec 22, 2014 05:56
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Runcible Cat posted:Any random with the ingredients and the formula can make gunpowder? That's true in the real world, but in Middle-Earth it is a new, mysterious, awful thing that (along with all of Saruman's industrialization) is viewed with distaste at best and horror at worst by the author, and which no right-thinking character would make or use as a weapon of war. EDIT: I'm saying that from a thematic standpoint, they are the same thing. Lemniscate Blue fucked around with this message at 07:50 on Dec 22, 2014 |
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Dec 22, 2014 07:47
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BatteredFeltFedora posted:That's true in the real world, but in Middle-Earth it is a new, mysterious, awful thing that (along with all of Saruman's industrialization) is viewed with distaste at best and horror at worst by the author, and which no right-thinking character would make or use as a weapon of war. The distinction is that while actual magic sorcery is dangerous and horrific, its also a known (or at least semi-known) quantity which the characters and their world can deal with. Saruman's technology represents a new threat, something that can move the world into a whole new epoch and completely overturn the existing societies. The characters aren't aware of this, but to the reader it indicates that what will happen if the bad guys win is something worse than just tyranny.
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Dec 22, 2014 12:39
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