|
It's really weird seeing people continually exhort the importance of meaningful choices and ambiguous morality in RPGs when the classic games they hold up as the best the genre has to offer feature almost none of that.
|
#
?
Dec 21, 2014 21:50
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 29, 2024 05:35 |
|
|
Hog Inspector posted:that would be awful. the paragon/renegade structure would mean you either have to minmax which choices make your favorite characters live or have half of them die every time when you do the last mission Ok, so forget having any choice or consequence at all then because gamers are huge babies.
|
|
#
?
Dec 21, 2014 21:53
|
|
|
The suicide mission should have had randomized deaths with very low probabilities of getting everyone out.
|
|
#
?
Dec 21, 2014 21:55
|
|
|
The really stupid thing is that unlocking bonus combat powers was not tied to DOING loyalty missions in ME2, but only by doing them "right". That's dumb. Inquisition has a better system because you literally don't get anything from doing "loyalty missions" aside from more time with that character thus the only incentive is to do the missions for characters you do in fact actually give a poo poo about For example I have gone 90 hours and the only time I have ever talked to Vivienne is when I recruited her because she is The Worst
|
|
#
?
Dec 21, 2014 21:56
|
|
|
precision posted:For example I have gone 90 hours and the only time I have ever talked to Vivienne is when I recruited her because she is The Worst I wish I could kick her out like Sera. Sera's the worst (if you're an elf).
|
|
#
?
Dec 21, 2014 21:58
|
|
|
Alain Post posted:The suicide mission should have had randomized deaths with very low probabilities of getting everyone out. I can never tell if you're serious or not but I think that would have been interesting. Maybe the loyalty missions and so on could tweak the odds a bit, but there's still a significant chance of characters dying and there's nothing you can do about it. Literally anything is better than "everyone survives the suicide mission if you follow this set of steps"
|
|
#
?
Dec 21, 2014 21:59
|
|
|
Alain Post posted:The suicide mission should have had randomized deaths with very low probabilities of getting everyone out. I like the idea of uncertainty but if you do this then I think you also have to make it so there's zero chance of 100% survival, otherwise gamers will then complain that they have to savescum to get AAA+ Max Completion Best Ending. There should always be a baseline number of deaths. Kind of a moot point since all the characters are just replaced with stand-ins for ME3 that don't alter the mission structure at all. Kirrahe is cool though so I do sincerely recommend sending Thane through the vents.
|
|
#
?
Dec 21, 2014 22:30
|
|
|
...of SCIENCE! posted:It's really weird seeing people continually exhort the importance of meaningful choices and ambiguous morality in RPGs when the classic games they hold up as the best the genre has to offer feature almost none of that. Classic games seem to understand that it's probably better to have no choice rather than have two choices that lead to roughly the same outcome. I think the thing is that people don't really want to make bad choices, which is understandable, but it leads to situations where every possible situation has to be treated with the same outcome as if the choice has no real impact, or people will feel that there's a choice they could have made that was better.
|
|
#
?
Dec 21, 2014 22:31
|
|
|
Ddraig posted:I think the thing is that people don't really want to make bad choices, which is understandable, but it leads to situations where every possible situation has to be treated with the same outcome as if the choice has no real impact, or people will feel that there's a choice they could have made that was better. All choices in video games are illusory anyway. I think most players just probably want decision points that A) feel like they have an actual impact on the story, and B) fit whatever character or narrative they're going for. You can do both at the same time, I don't see how those are in conflict with each other.
|
|
#
?
Dec 21, 2014 22:38
|
|
|
|
|
#
?
Dec 21, 2014 23:07
|
|
|
exquisite tea posted:All choices in video games are illusory anyway. I think most players just probably want decision points that A) feel like they have an actual impact on the story, and B) fit whatever character or narrative they're going for. You can do both at the same time, I don't see how those are in conflict with each other. Yeah, I prefer having "actual" choices, but I don't mind the whole "player as script-writer" thing too badly.
|
|
#
?
Dec 21, 2014 23:19
|
|
|
This whole talk about endings made me think of STALKER SoC. That game has 7 endings. 5 of those endings gently caress you over completely. If you do not choose to do one of those, you have to do a 30 minute fight which is boring, really annoying and at times stupidly difficult. This gets you to the sixth ending which kinda fucks you over as well. If you want the real good ending you have to do another one or two hours of monotone fighting (in a nice enviroment at least) only to get the real true ending. Kinda bullshit tbh.
|
|
#
?
Dec 21, 2014 23:22
|
|
|
meaningful gameplay choices = good meaningful story choices = bad, cause it usually sucks away development time and railroads you to a samey conclusion with minor deviations cause it's impossible to make a game like that any other way unless you make it super generic like a bethesda game
|
|
#
?
Dec 22, 2014 00:08
|
|
|
exploration and a complex world is good but it's not the same as choice in the actual story, and that's what seems to trip people up. choose your own adventure / VN style story choice is totally different than a complex world like Skyrim or something
|
|
#
?
Dec 22, 2014 00:46
|
|
|
 Shadow the Hedgehog (2005) has more story branches and exclusive content based on your choices than Deus Ex, The Walking Dead, or Mass Effect. 
|
|
#
?
Dec 22, 2014 00:49
|
|
|
i know it's amazing, every time i replay the game (once a week usually) i discover something new
|
|
#
?
Dec 22, 2014 00:53
|
|
|
Ekster posted:meaningful gameplay choices = good I really can't wait for developers to stop doing this poo poo. mass Effect was the worst offender of this
|
|
#
?
Dec 22, 2014 00:55
|
|
|
Call of Duty: Black Ops II has some interesting branching and conditions in the campaign as well, even though half of them make very little sense.
|
|
#
?
Dec 22, 2014 00:56
|
|
|
Alpha Protocol was basically structured like a Mad Libs book where the general trajectory remained the same but different characters could fill different roles at the end depending on what you did, and I thought that was fairly successful.
|
|
#
?
Dec 22, 2014 00:57
|
|
|
Ultimately for any game with branching storylines it's going to come down to how well the developers hide the illusion of choice. Every player is going to have their own definition of what amount of variation is "enough." I thought The Walking Dead did this well, even though the choices were mostly illusory the story very much felt like it was "your" story unfolding because the characters themselves were highly responsive to your decisions, even if their overall effect upon the storyline were rather minor.Alain Post posted:Alpha Protocol was basically structured like a Mad Libs book where the general trajectory remained the same but different characters could fill different roles at the end depending on what you did, and I thought that was fairly successful. Alpha Protocol probably would have done a lot better if they chose any setting in the universe other than "modern spy game," even generic fantasy would have been preferable.
|
|
#
?
Dec 22, 2014 00:59
|
|
|
Here is watch_dogs story branch for comparison.
|
|
#
?
Dec 22, 2014 01:02
|
|
|
where is stuttering framerates in that flowchart tho
|
|
#
?
Dec 22, 2014 01:03
|
|
|
exquisite tea posted:Ultimately for any game with branching storylines it's going to come down to how well the developers hide the illusion of choice. Every player is going to have their own definition of what amount of variation is "enough." I thought The Walking Dead did this well, even though the choices were mostly illusory the story very much felt like it was "your" story unfolding because the characters themselves were highly responsive to your decisions, even if their overall effect upon the storyline were rather minor. s2 really went down the shitter though. every episode there were multiple points where it was extremely obvious which of the presented choices the devs wanted me to pick and when i went against that they immediately overrode my decision, often without even acknowledging it. especially episode 4 with sarah, that was just incredibly lazy. really shows that having no choice is better than badly made choices
|
|
#
?
Dec 22, 2014 01:06
|
|
|
Really haven't gotten around to playing season two, I did the first episode and was like "I don't really feel like continuing." I didn't even really dislike what I saw, but I guess I just wasn't feeling it.
|
|
#
?
Dec 22, 2014 01:07
|
|
|
Yeah, I agree Alpha Protocol probably did the best job out of any game I personally know when it comes to a reactive story. I also agree that TWD season 1 does a good job creating an illusion of choice, however if you do any research or play through the game a second time you kind of feel cheated in a way when you realize your influence isn't as great as you initially thought. This is ofcourse unavoidable in most if not all games that attempt this. Strangely enough, I feel Heavy Rain handled this specific part quite well, where the protagonists can indeed die with genuine consequences to the story. It also added a lot of tension to dangerous scenes in a natural way. Unfortunately, David Cage is an amazingly bad writer that makes Hideo Kojima look like an expert in subtle and brief storytelling in comparison. That being said I think this approach greatly limits a game in many ways that ultimately bring it down for reasons already discussed.
|
|
#
?
Dec 22, 2014 01:11
|
|
|
Hog Inspector posted:s2 really went down the shitter though. every episode there were multiple points where it was extremely obvious which of the presented choices the devs wanted me to pick and when i went against that they immediately overrode my decision, often without even acknowledging it. especially episode 4 with sarah, that was just incredibly lazy. really shows that having no choice is better than badly made choices A lot of the writers jumped ship to make their own games after s1 ended. Gamers need to do a better job following talent rather than following franchises. See also: all the people behind Uncharted 2 focusing on The Last Of Us while Uncharted 3 was a new team, Bioware's writers leaving after the EA buyout which is why their writing has gone downhill post-ME2
|
|
#
?
Dec 22, 2014 01:44
|
|
|
Mass Effect 3 was epic, the greatest written game in the history of the art form. More seriously, the founders of Bioware left, but I'm not sure if they were actively involved by then, and I don't remember any huge departures in the writing staff. TBH I really don't like most of Bioware's games from a writing perspective anyway, even the "classic" ones.
|
|
#
?
Dec 22, 2014 02:11
|
|
|
Walking dead season 2 was really good. The ending sucked, but overall it was about on par with season 1.
|
|
#
?
Dec 22, 2014 04:45
|
|
|
Man, if there's one thing that sucks about playing games late is missing out in cool discussions. I know it's been said a million times over, but Dark Souls is loving cool. And not because it's hard, but because it's so cool to just adventure and not know what's coming next. A video game actually made me jump in my seat. Imagine that? Am I PewDiePie? teen phone cutie fucked around with this message at 08:08 on Dec 22, 2014 |
|
#
?
Dec 22, 2014 07:58
|
|
|
My brother wanted to know why Watch Dogs was regarded as such a terrible game and as he was describing what he was playing, it turns out he accidently bought Sleeping Dogs and played through it.
|
|
#
?
Dec 22, 2014 08:06
|
|
|
The Taint Reaper posted:My brother wanted to know why Watch Dogs was regarded as such a terrible game and as he was describing what he was playing, it turns out he accidently bought Sleeping Dogs and played through it. It's a Christmas miracle.
|
|
#
?
Dec 22, 2014 08:09
|
|
The Taint Reaper posted:My brother wanted to know why Watch Dogs was regarded as such a terrible game and as he was describing what he was playing, it turns out he accidently bought Sleeping Dogs and played through it. Well, he got a good game, so good for him. 
|
|
|
#
?
Dec 22, 2014 09:49
|
|
|
The Taint Reaper posted:My brother wanted to know why Watch Dogs was regarded as such a terrible game and as he was describing what he was playing, it turns out he accidently bought Sleeping Dogs and played through it. this is a very heartwarming thing to read.
|
|
#
?
Dec 22, 2014 12:06
|
|
|
The Taint Reaper posted:My brother wanted to know why Watch Dogs was regarded as such a terrible game and as he was describing what he was playing, it turns out he accidently bought Sleeping Dogs and played through it. What a lucky guy.
|
|
#
?
Dec 22, 2014 12:59
|
|
|
The Taint Reaper posted:My brother wanted to know why Watch Dogs was regarded as such a terrible game and as he was describing what he was playing, it turns out he accidently bought Sleeping Dogs and played through it.
|
|
#
?
Dec 22, 2014 13:03
|
|
|
The Taint Reaper posted:My brother wanted to know why Watch Dogs was regarded as such a terrible game and as he was describing what he was playing, it turns out he accidently bought Sleeping Dogs and played through it. That was ubisofts marketing strategy, give the worst sandbox gta game a similar name to the best sandbox gta game
|
|
#
?
Dec 22, 2014 14:43
|
|
|
so who is going to look forward to nintendo making an ubisoft open world style game out of zelda i bet it is very bad, but playable
|
|
#
?
Dec 22, 2014 14:54
|
|
|
I dunno, will it have tower climbing?
|
|
#
?
Dec 22, 2014 15:19
|
|
|
hubris.height posted:so who is going to look forward to nintendo making an ubisoft open world style game out of zelda
|
|
#
?
Dec 22, 2014 15:20
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 29, 2024 05:35 |
|
|
Prison Architect is OK. Not fantastic, but pretty OK. I wish it had a system where it paused on events. Maybe it does. Prisoner cancels job: interrupted by Forgotten Warden.
|
|
#
?
Dec 22, 2014 15:25
|
|
