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Dec 22, 2014 17:48
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Shachi posted:Largely nothing? Pedestrian in the roadway unfortunately. They aren't criminally liable. You understand why this post undermines this one: Shachi posted:It doesn't change what it is what what it's for. Keep being pedantic. Right? If a car pulls up onto a front yard and runs over a kid, the driver would be criminally liable because front yards IS WHERE CHILDREN ARE SUPPOSED TO BE.
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Dec 22, 2014 17:49
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Shachi posted:I said they avoid casualties. I'm being general. You know, like how tasers reduced the amount of people who might have otherwise have been shot but some people die being tased? Tasers were intended to be a less-lethal alternative to guns (and even batons). But that's another touchy subject. Lots of people get tasered when there is no need.
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Dec 22, 2014 17:50
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Shachi posted:In a typical scenario, flash bangs work well. Otherwise, here, you try going to the door and asking the nice man for his guns and drugs. This would be an improvement! How many people do you seriously think are going to go nuts and start shooting at police, pretty much guaranteeing their own death or at least life in prison, over drug charges? How is it preferable to kick in a door in the middle of the night and create a violent confrontation, when you can far more simply cut off any escape and inform the suspect he is under arrest? e: Or, you know, do some actual investigating - figure out where and when the suspect is outside of the house and arrest him there. AreWeDrunkYet fucked around with this message at 17:56 on Dec 22, 2014 |
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Dec 22, 2014 17:53
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30.5 Days posted:You understand why this post undermines this one: And where are flashbangs supposed to be? In residences of course.
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Dec 22, 2014 17:53
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Shachi posted:
http://herald-citizen.com/newsx/item/5285-weeklong-investigation-yields-various-drug-charges
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Dec 22, 2014 17:57
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AreWeDrunkYet posted:This would be an improvement! How many people do you seriously think are going to go nuts and start shooting at police, pretty much guaranteeing their own death or at least life in prison, over drug charges? How is it preferable to kick in a door in the middle of the night and create a violent confrontation, when you can far more simply cut off any escape and inform the suspect he is under arrest? I agree. 30.5 Days posted:You understand why this post undermines this one: No no, I get it. I used the car example as a thing that's not meant to kill and injure people but it does I forgot to expect people to look farther into it than I meant. SedanChair posted:Yes, go to the door and ask for the drugs and guns. Nut up. Or arrest him when he goes to buy cigarettes, jesus think a little. How large is your erection at this point? Google it yourself? Yes lets try to arrest the guy in a public place that'll in no way create a hostage situation or endanger the lives of further innocents. I'm speaking specifically at the usage of SWAT teams to arrest violent offenders who've so far avoided law enforcement. The use of SWAT for drug raids has largely fallen out of favor at our agency because of the issues that have been addressed here. CheesyDog posted:http://herald-citizen.com/newsx/item/5285-weeklong-investigation-yields-various-drug-charges 99.9% of drug raids happen this way at least those I am familiar with and how my agency conducts them.
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Dec 22, 2014 17:59
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Shachi posted:No no, I get it. I used the car example as a thing that's not meant to kill and injure people but it does I forgot to expect people to look farther into it than I meant. A car's a great counter-example to your argument, though, since like most things, they mainly kill or injure unintentionally when someone has been negligent.
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Dec 22, 2014 18:01
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Shachi posted:
Shachi posted:
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Dec 22, 2014 18:02
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Shachi posted:99.9% of drug raids happen this way at least those I am familiar with and how my agency conducts them. So when you sarcastically said "oh am I supposed to just go to the door and talk to the nice drug man?" you meant that that literally happens all the time and works pretty well.
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Dec 22, 2014 18:02
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To address a topic of conversation that came up earlier about the media reporting on police. I feel like so much of the public perception of police is tainted by the News and TV. Using this thread as an example it would seem you all think that A) All raids are done by SWAT B) All drug raids are these huge violent operations. C) SWAT is used all of the time. D) We just invade houses in the middle of the night and throw flashbangs everywhere to keep drugs out of the toilet. Because the only things that make national news are when those things go bad. I'm not saying that they shouldn't be reported on. But there has to be some kind of way for people to have some kind of realistic perception of police work. Kind of like how all white people think Al Sharpton is an accurate representation of how all black people feel despite the truth otherwise. In reality the vast majority of our arrests are: "Hey I got a warrant says you did this thing put your hands behind your back" "ok" and search warrants are conducted as: *knock knock* "Hey I got this search warrant for your house" "Ok." 30.5 Days posted:So when you sarcastically said "oh am I supposed to just go to the door and talk to the nice drug man?" you meant that that literally happens all the time and works pretty well. yep it literally happens that way all the time.
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Dec 22, 2014 18:07
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I think that's the quickest I've seen someone ignore what they just said.
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Dec 22, 2014 18:09
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Shachi posted:Using this thread as an example it would seem you all think that Literally nobody believes these things. Here's what you're missing: you can have the highest standard of proof in the world for delivering that no-knock raid, but unless the documentation for that standard ends with, "and if not, it's somebody's rear end" it's totally irrelevant. I'm sure the dudes who flashbanged that baby made the judge all kinds of assurances, but they were bullshit and nobody's going to be punished. Ultimately, can you look at the case and say: A) Those dudes knew the inside of the house well enough to justify their super duper SWAT raid? B) Those dudes knew with a certainty that the guy they were looking for was there C) Those dudes had watched the house closely enough to know that there were no other options D) That the drugs they thought the guy who they didn't even know where he lived were worth upgrading him to criminal mastermind status E) That the danger used to justify the raid went beyond "well we're pretty sure he owns a gun" Of course they didn't know those things. Some CI said the guy had sold some drugs in that house a few months previously and they went all stormtrooper on it. I doubt the target even owns a gun since the logic seems to be that the drug dealer busted out his gun to show off to a police informant in the middle of a drug transaction, and that seems like bullshit. But the judge no doubt demanded that they stipulated to some or all of the above. And they did it. And they were lying. And it's nobody's rear end. Your weird defensiveness about no-knock SWAT poo poo is exactly what we're talking about btw. Shachi posted:yep it literally happens that way all the time. So why did you imply that posters in this thread are somehow naive for demanding that things be done that way?
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Dec 22, 2014 18:16
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^^^^ For all the "high standards" those raids sometimes manage to be to the wrong address. AreWeDrunkYet posted:This would be an improvement! How many people do you seriously think are going to go nuts and start shooting at police, pretty much guaranteeing their own death or at least life in prison, over drug charges? How is it preferable to kick in a door in the middle of the night and create a violent confrontation, when you can far more simply cut off any escape and inform the suspect he is under arrest? I should also note that there have been incidents of those night-time drug raids that resulted in dead police officers when the resident freaked out and panicked, thinking there was some sort of home invasion going on. And, well, over something like a couple of pot plants. It seems likely that this "normal accepted procedure" endangers regular citizens and police both.
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Dec 22, 2014 18:21
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Shachi posted:I said they avoid casualties. I'm being general. You know, like how tasers reduced the amount of people who might have otherwise have been shot but some people die being tased? They don't reduce the amount of people who otherwise would have been shot. They do increase the amount of people who die from a heart attack due to a mysterious condition called "excited delirium" that only exists when cops repeatedly torture them with electricity for compliance.
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Dec 22, 2014 18:23
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Megaman's Jockstrap posted:They don't reduce the amount of people who otherwise would have been shot. They do increase the amount of people who die from a heart attack due to a mysterious condition called "excited delirium" that only exists when cops repeatedly torture them with electricity for compliance. Yeah, this was a weird thing- I understand that the "talking point" regarding tasers is that they reduce deaths. But Shachi, are you actually trained to respond to lethal force with a taser? In which situations? If you aren't taught to do that, in what way do tasers reduce the user of lethal force by officers?
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Dec 22, 2014 18:27
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30.5 Days posted:If you aren't taught to do that, in what way do tasers reduce the user of lethal force by officers? I would rather get tazed than face the business end of a baton. Neither is lethal strictly speaking, but the latter is a lot more likely to cripple or kill you. But they seem to be used too often for pain compliance or just because someone was talking back. This is really the problem - tazers are seen as safe enough to introduce force to a situation that would not have warranted it otherwise
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Dec 22, 2014 18:33
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AreWeDrunkYet posted:But they seem to be used too often for pain compliance or just because someone was talking back. Batons are used the same way, to be frank. I'll be honest, I'd rather get tased than batonned, but I'd rather officers use the baton. Giving agents of the state a way to beat someone without leaving a mark isn't really something I want happening.
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Dec 22, 2014 18:35
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Radish posted:This is why you aren't a "good" cop. Careful, if you make him mad he'll never track down that poor girl.
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Dec 22, 2014 18:36
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AreWeDrunkYet posted:I would rather get tazed than face the business end of a baton. Neither is lethal strictly speaking, but the latter is a lot more likely to cripple or kill you.
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Dec 22, 2014 18:37
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Shachi posted:Google it yourself? You just claimed that Taser use has reduced police shootings. Provide evidence for your claim.
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Dec 22, 2014 18:40
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CheesyDog posted:I think that's the quickest I've seen someone ignore what they just said. I've already condemned the flashbang a baby incident as a bad thing. I'm not going to keep talking about it. Yes like 99% raids like that are simply a matter of knock and talk. 1% of the time we use SWAT for whatever reason it's deemed necessary. Sometimes, that poo poo goes south. But public perception, which is clearly accurate is the other way around. We have a horrible image problem. It's also largely our fault. It doesn't mean it's very accurate. Using my personal agency as an example. The last time a person died as a result of something we did was something like 5 years ago (officer involved shooting...also was the last time anyone at our agency shot anyone). Our city is about 80k population. We have about 120 sworn personnel. We field around 150k calls for service/citizen contacts in an average year. That's like 600 thousand interactions with the public one of which ended in a person being killed by us. The problem I guess is...us doing the the right thing generally met with "Well duh that's your loving job." But a single incident is cause to decry it as an epidemic. Two black guys died this year becomes a rally cry for "Police murder all black people" My personal feelings are that Furgeson was legal shoot...the police response was not. NYPD choking incident was unjustifiable and that's bull poo poo. The grand jury system is ultra hosed up in both cases. I'm fully willing to acknowledge that. But I really get the feeling that this thread will accept nothing short of police having no arrest powers, no ability to use force, or basically for there to be such an institution any longer. So I'm not going to debate it any further. But you sit here an wonder why police get defensive, why is NYPD so mad? Its because we've had to sit down to the news everyday for past six months or more and hear about what poo poo, soul-less people we are. It cultures and fosters that "Us against them mentality" When you say goodbye to your spouse and kids everyday to risk your life for others who don't appreciate it even remotely. I don't expect appreciation. I understand what I represent to a lot of people. I do what I can to change that and teach other the same. I'm wearing the same uniform that killed Gardner, fire hosed the civil rights movement, and lynch mobbed slaves and I 100 percent understand that. I promise, no one is face-palming harder every time a cop fucks up than other cops. It undermines everything that the vast majority of us work to accomplish every day. I'm pretty much closing on that but I'd be happy to talk about...you know....reform ideas.
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Dec 22, 2014 18:41
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CheesyDog posted:
Like how in any other profession if you wrote a very public, very racist article about how you don't care about your job anymore and all of your company's clients are stupid, ungrateful, and also bad parents you would cease to have said job.
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Dec 22, 2014 18:42
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Shachi posted:I've already condemned the flashbang a baby incident as a bad thing. I'm not going to keep talking about it. This is so hyperbolic I don't even know where to start. People want the police to have the power to arrest and use force. People don't want police who abuse this privilege to get away scott free. This isn't hard. Seriously most people would be 100% okay if the cops who hosed up got punished and fired. Quietly going on paid leave and then pretending it never happened is not accountability. Also its laughable to say its because 2 black guys got killed this is happening. These are not isolated incidents just the straw that broke the camel's back. You can't honestly believe that the media has whipped up a frenzy so large just because 2 black guys got killed. People are sick of this poo poo and they all have their own stories.
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Dec 22, 2014 18:46
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Then lets talk about reforms! What about the idea of a National police force? I believe here in the States we are unique in having such regional police forces. Wouldn't having a National force potentially be better because you would have uniform standards, sure more bureaucratic red-tape but more record keeping (preventing lovely officers from jumping to other departments like that Tamir Rice shooter. I know this will never happen in ARE COUNTRY but who knows? Edit: And sorry dude, cops and minorities have had issues since the beginning of modern Policing in the 19th century.
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Dec 22, 2014 18:46
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joeburz posted:He means ActusRhesus says they are a lawyer in just about every third post they make. You catty assholes have more in common with the comments section on a Fox News affiliate site than you might want to think. I'd say you'd fit in well on Papa Fox News but I think that'd be a little too generous.
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Dec 22, 2014 18:47
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Shachi posted:The problem I guess is...us doing the the right thing generally met with "Well duh that's your loving job." But a single incident is cause to decry it as an epidemic. Are you just not reading the posts or did you read them and subsequently decide to misrepresent them?
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Dec 22, 2014 18:48
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anonumos posted:Tasers were intended to be a less-lethal alternative to guns (and even batons). But that's another touchy subject. Lots of people get tasered when there is no need. They have become a more-lethal alternative to conversation. And that's assuming the officer in question can remember which holster is the tazer and which is the pistol, which is far from a given.
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Dec 22, 2014 18:49
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Ghost of Reagan Past posted:Being tazed loving sucks. It really, really hurts. Yeah it loving does. 30.5 Days posted:Yeah, this was a weird thing- I understand that the "talking point" regarding tasers is that they reduce deaths. But Shachi, are you actually trained to respond to lethal force with a taser? In which situations? If you aren't taught to do that, in what way do tasers reduce the user of lethal force by officers? No. Lethal force is met with lethal force. Taser's are, by our policy at least, used to meet an actively resisting person example a person taking a fighting stance or who is actively combative. Taser's often prevent fights from escalating to the level of lethal force if an officer finds himself on the losing end of a fight. I fully believe a Taser would have prevented Michael Browns death had Wilson started out in a tactically sound position ie. not right beside Brown in his patrol car. Taser's also prevent deaths caused by baton etc. It's easy to get tunnel visioned in a fight and let emotion over take you and seriously injure someone. We actually don't care batons now and a lot of other agencies are doing the same. Taser's have been used largely since 2001 and there have been 12 deaths from Tasing as of 2011 http://www.canada.com/saskatoonstarphoenix/story.html?id=7f62c7ad-26b1-4523-8654-ebe8fe1f4127 http://fortune.com/2011/09/06/a-new-life-for-taser-this-time-with-less-controversy/
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Dec 22, 2014 18:51
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Cracker King posted:Then lets talk about reforms! I don't think the FBI has the best track record either, though certainly it's tempered by the fact that they aren't dealing with local matters.
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Dec 22, 2014 18:53
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Shachi posted:But you sit here an wonder why police get defensive, why is NYPD so mad? Its because we've had to sit down to the news everyday for past six months or more and hear about what poo poo, soul-less people we are. It cultures and fosters that "Us against them mentality" When you say goodbye to your spouse and kids everyday to risk your life for others who don't appreciate it even remotely. Can you please post the news broadcast that said this, because I would think a guy with a kevlar vest wouldn't need an army of strawmen to defend himself.
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Dec 22, 2014 18:55
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Shachi posted:Taser's have been used largely since 2001 and there have been 12 deaths from Tasing as of 2011 lol http://electronicvillage.blogspot.com/2009/05/taser-related-deaths-in-united-states.html
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Dec 22, 2014 18:55
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Cracker King posted:Then lets talk about reforms! Would never happen, and doesn't even need to happen. Greater accountability from external pressures can accomplish the same goals without a complete takeover. Now to the likelihood of that happening...you can already see the pushback from federal investigations into county offices so who really knows. GENDERWEIRD GREEDO posted:You catty assholes have more in common with the comments section on a Fox News affiliate site than you might want to think. I'd say you'd fit in well on Papa Fox News but I think that'd be a little too generous. What?
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Dec 22, 2014 18:55
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Cracker King posted:Then lets talk about reforms! Well its kind of dumb we have Federal Institutions of policing as well as at the local level. You have to consider we have states with populations bigger than most countries that have a National Police. I think with that would come a much more militarized police force than already exists as well. It would be super loving rad if we had a standardized federal policy and procedure that extends to all police agencies beyond just some bare general policies . However, since laws vary greatly from state to state you either have local agencies or basically federal law becomes the only enforceable law.
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Dec 22, 2014 18:56
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Just a reminder that those taser numbers are, by definition, incomplete, because police precincts do not report officer-instigated deaths to anyone, and that should certainly not be taken as a sign that the system is broken.
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Dec 22, 2014 18:57
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Shachi posted:
I too believe shooting a unarmed already shot black man that's 30+ feet away from you is justifiable.  Please tell me why!
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Dec 22, 2014 18:58
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ratbert90 posted:I too believe shooting a unarmed already shot black man that's 30+ feet away from you is justifiable. I guess it depends on what parts of the evidence or witness accounts you choose to believe 
Shachi fucked around with this message at 19:01 on Dec 22, 2014 |
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Dec 22, 2014 18:58
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I just can't understand why the police are so resistant to the idea if you are negligent to the point where someone literally loses their life or sustains serious bodily harm and it could have been avoided they should lose their job. Why would you want to be on a police force that shields these kinds of individuals I am just not getting it and I have never seen a single officer explain this in a reasonable fashion.
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Dec 22, 2014 18:58
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Shachi posted:I think the issue is more maybe what ME's are determining Taser's to be the cause of death or if other issues are at play. For instance, excited delirium,
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Dec 22, 2014 18:59
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Vire posted:Also its laughable to say its because 2 black guys got killed this is happening. These are not isolated incidents just the straw that broke the camel's back. This is just a fundamental difference on the way people think and view the world. Or how much they pay attention. People who see a systematic abuse of power and see things as "big picture" see these incidents as just more to add to the oppression they feel. People who have probably never felt this oppression and have a different experience with police, different up-bringing, different social circumstances may agree that police need to be held accountable for excessive force but see these protesters as hanging their hat on the wrong incidents, because they're more inclined to believe a different narrative. I hope that made sense, I'm phone posting so it's hard to make an ultra thoughtful post, but maybe it'd help if people try to understand why people are forming such contrasting opinions instead of being so adversarial.
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Dec 22, 2014 18:59
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