|
30.5 Days posted:I actually really don't think much work is needed to fix the system. Just legal consequences. Which is why I basically think this is an academic exercise, because Ta-Nehisi Coates is right. As a society, we don't want police to face consequences for the violence committed in our name, because we don't want the violence to stop. Just like we don't want people to face consequences for torturing, or for illegally feeding telecom data to the CIA. We want the government to break the law in pursuit of criminals/terrorists/outsiders. That's why the death of eric garner/hands up don't shoot/etc. are so important, because they carry the possibility to change minds about the consequences of police violence. That's also why Shachi is so loving ridiculous, because his complaints are about people openly expressing contrary ideas about the place of police in our society. The problem is a lot bigger than cops not being punished though. The point I get from Eric Garner is that he shouldn't have had years of constant contact with the police that eventually facilitated his death. Yes things would have been better if he had encountered nicer cops but they would have been even better if the concept of "broken windows" policing were abolished and he never would have had a life of being constantly hassled by police officers in the first place. That's the part of this that will be difficult to fix because too many people support these sort of policies.
|
#
?
Dec 22, 2014 20:20
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 4, 2024 05:42 |
|
|
I mean this with zero sarcasm, why should I give a gently caress about how the police feel about this or that, over why an SEO feels about a Google algorithm update or something? I literally do not understand the "respect and care about our jobs, while we give you no respect or care about yours" line of thinking. I don't know why you did this or thought that, I didn't ask the garbageman what he thought about dumpsters vs. cans?
|
|
#
?
Dec 22, 2014 21:25
|
|
|
Radbot posted:I mean this with zero sarcasm, why should I give a gently caress about how the police feel about this or that, over why an SEO feels about a Google algorithm update or something? One angle that seems to actually be getting through to people about "oops" is the analogy of police brutality with medical malpractice. We acknowledge that our emergency doctors are some of the most stressed, hardest-working people on the planet. At the same time, we don't tolerate "oops" in medicine. We look to improve healthcare outcomes. We hold bad doctors accountable. We might have fundamental disagreements on tort reform with regards to medical malpractice penalties, but there's very few people out there who think that medical malpractice as a concept outright shouldn't exist. Someone replied with "yeah, but you don't see people taking out their anger by killing random doctors like they do with cops." It turns out, you do. And that's before you even get into anti-abortion violence.
|
|
#
?
Dec 22, 2014 21:34
|
|
|
The mistake isn't the police believing they had achieved ARE TROOPS status with America at some point. Rightly or wrongly they had cultivated that sort of aura, particularly with groups that weren't targeted by the ugly side of law enforcement. Their mistake is thinking that having that sort of national recognition stemmed from something other than public opinion and that no matter how lovely they are they deserve it. That poo poo is well on it's way to being revoked and being big whiny babies about how you can't kill people with zero consequences and then brag about it publically is what's doing it.
|
|
#
?
Dec 22, 2014 21:51
|
|
|
The thing that always seems to be ignored about cases where cops get shot is that there was never a question of "justice" for the shooter. Chances are the suspect will be shot on the spot (as it was in this case) - but even if he managed to surrender, is there a single sane person out there who would expect anything less than a vigorous prosecution and a likely life sentence? Is there a chorus line of public figures and organizations insisting that everyone refrain from judgment until the suspect's employer conduct a thorough investigation? Is there any pattern of prosecutors distorting the judicial process in favor of people accused of murdering cops? If anything, this weekend's shooting just makes the police reform protesters' point for them. If the police, courts, and public dealt with murders committed by police even half as vigorously as murders committed against police, none of this would be an issue.
|
|
#
?
Dec 22, 2014 21:52
|
|
|
The issue there is that sometimes police have to murder people as part of their job. Actually, that's not the real issue. The real issue is that professional standards to be a cop are astoundingly low.
|
|
#
?
Dec 22, 2014 21:56
|
|
|
AreWeDrunkYet posted:The thing that always seems to be ignored about cases where cops get shot is that there was never a question of "justice" for the shooter. Chances are the suspect will be shot on the spot (as it was in this case) - but even if he managed to surrender, is there a single sane person out there who would expect anything less than a vigorous prosecution and a likely life sentence? Is there a chorus line of public figures and organizations insisting that everyone refrain from judgment until the suspect's employer conduct a thorough investigation? Is there any pattern of prosecutors distorting the judicial process in favor of people accused of murdering cops? This and "So how responsible is the (tea party/GOP/whoever) for the Las Vegas shooters from earlier this year?" are my two security checkpoints for intelligent discussion of police reform right now. If you can't be honest about the difference between someone being killed and facing the legal consequences OR a very very clearly justified police killing and a police officer killing someone and facing an inconvenience for a few months, then I won't even start. If you can't be honest about what the NY and LV shooters' politics mean for the larger movement*, then I won't even start. *Not "nothing" but not "BLOOD ON ALL YOUR HANDS" either.
|
|
#
?
Dec 22, 2014 22:05
|
|
|
Intel&Sebastian posted:The mistake isn't the police believing they had achieved ARE TROOPS status with America at some point. Rightly or wrongly they had cultivated that sort of aura, particularly with groups that weren't targeted by the ugly side of law enforcement. I wonder if it would help them stop being babies if they didn't have the power of life and death. I mean how could a cop ever do my job? Teenagers talking poo poo to me all week long. Somehow I manage not to cry about it.
|
|
#
?
Dec 22, 2014 22:11
|
|
|
It comes down to team sports, to tribalism. For a lot of people cops are part of who they identity as "us". The police are the heroes that will do what ever it takes to violently protect "us" from "them" not unlike the troops. The troops kill them over there, and the police kill them here. Anyone who doesn't like this must be a supporter of "them". You either 100% support the police and are on the good team, or you hate the police and are on the bad team. You either want the police around doing what they do and enforcing the law, or you want urban ferals descending over suburbia in a tide of rape, murder, and even property crime. There are no other positions, you are either with society or against it.
|
|
#
?
Dec 22, 2014 22:12
|
|
|
Well said. It all plays right into an authoritarian mindset.
|
|
#
?
Dec 22, 2014 22:13
|
|
|
Baronjutter posted:You either want the police around doing what they do and enforcing the law, or you want urban ferals descending over suburbia in a tide of rape, murder, and even property crime. That's the other thing. These same people will pontificate endlessly about the decay of society, how the breakdown of morality and sagging pants are leading to the erosion of culture as those thugs ruin the perfect vision of America that has only ever existed in their fever dreams. And police are just the last line of defense, putting their lives on the line to stand against this tide of darkness running rampant. Of course crime rates are down substantially over the last few decades, but hey, why let facts get in the way of a perfectly good narrative?
|
|
#
?
Dec 22, 2014 22:30
|
|
|
Radbot posted:Well said. It all plays right into an authoritarian mindset. It's this. Most people would be fine in a fascist country as long as the government's preferences match their own.
|
|
#
?
Dec 22, 2014 22:42
|
|
|
AreWeDrunkYet posted:That's the other thing. These same people will pontificate endlessly about the decay of society, how the breakdown of morality and sagging pants are leading to the erosion of culture as those thugs ruin the perfect vision of America that has only ever existed in their fever dreams. And police are just the last line of defense, putting their lives on the line to stand against this tide of darkness running rampant. The police should be happy they've helped lower the crime rate in the country, but instead they're trying to get a democratically elected mayor thrown from office before his first term is even complete because he decided to be a loving human being and not a racist piece of poo poo like Giuliani.
|
|
#
?
Dec 22, 2014 22:42
|
|
|
Nonsense posted:The police should be happy they've helped lower the crime rate in the country, but instead they're trying to get a democratically elected mayor thrown from office before his first term is even complete because he decided to be a loving human being and not a racist piece of poo poo like Giuliani.
|
|
#
?
Dec 22, 2014 22:44
|
|
|
Unzip and Attack posted:It's this. Most people would be fine in a fascist country as long as the government's preferences match their own. I hate to introduce third-hand information (hee hee no I don't) but I remember years ago on a gun board there was a cop who was posting about his first days joining the force. A sergeant told him that it's the police's job to enforce order, and that if the Soviet Union conquered America tomorrow it would still be their job. Now this cop and the others on the board disagreed with this idea, but apparently it's out there.
|
|
#
?
Dec 22, 2014 22:47
|
|
|
Shachi posted:It's all the tasing I've received to make me so racist. I just can't help it. Sorry you didn't experience the coddling and deference you're used to while in uniform on an internet debate forum.
|
|
#
?
Dec 22, 2014 22:48
|
|
|
SedanChair posted:I wonder if it would help them stop being babies if they didn't have the power of life and death. I mean how could a cop ever do my job? Teenagers talking poo poo to me all week long. Somehow I manage not to cry about it. But if they put their arms up at you how can you sleep at night?
|
|
#
?
Dec 22, 2014 22:51
|
|
|
I'd actually love to see statistics concerning how dangerous it actually is to be a police officer relative to something like being a woman or trans, in terms of contributing factors to their death or abuse. I looked at some bureau of labor stuff, and we're lucky lumberjacks and commercial fishermen aren't throwing grenades on babies.SedanChair posted:A sergeant told him that it's the police's job to enforce order, and that if the Soviet Union conquered America tomorrow it would still be their job. Now this cop and the others on the board disagreed with this idea, but apparently it's out there. Does this mean they'd have to enforce the laws of the Soviet Union or that they'd be obligated to go Red Dawn?
|
|
#
?
Dec 22, 2014 22:59
|
|
|
moths posted:I'd actually love to see statistics concerning how dangerous it actually is to be a police officer relative to something like being a woman or trans, in terms of contributing factors to their death or abuse. I looked at some bureau of labor stuff, and we're lucky lumberjacks and commercial fishermen aren't throwing grenades on babies. Any job where you spend most of your time driving around is going to be extremely dangerous. Excluding stuff where you're working around obviously dangerous industrial equipment (logging/fishing/farming/etc, and most of those have high death rates but relatively low absolute numbers), most of the most dangerous jobs seem like perfectly mundane things until you realize these people are spending most of their time behind the wheel. http://www.bls.gov/news.release/pdf/cfoi.pdf quote:Fatal transportation incidents were lower by 10 percent in 2013, but still accounted for about 2 out of every 5 fatal work injuries in 2013. (See chart 1.) Of the 1,740 transportation-related fatal injuries in 2013, nearly 3 out of every 5 (991 cases) were roadway incidents involving motorized land vehicles. Ironically enough, getting police officers out of their cruisers and engaging the community is probably good for both their health and safety (not to mention just making for better policing).
|
|
#
?
Dec 22, 2014 23:10
|
|
|
moths posted:I'd actually love to see statistics concerning how dangerous it actually is to be a police officer relative to something like being a woman or trans, in terms of contributing factors to their death or abuse. I looked at some bureau of labor stuff, and we're lucky lumberjacks and commercial fishermen aren't throwing grenades on babies. While I doubt it has much of an effect, the fact that cops are trigger-happy when they even remotely think they're in danger probably does help to reduce the number of actual instances of danger they're subjected to. (In much the same way as using an umbrella at all times, including when it's sunny, reduces the chance of getting rained on.)
|
|
#
?
Dec 22, 2014 23:16
|
|
|
Misogynist posted:Ongoing reminder that this is all actually over a contract dispute with the police union. I know de Blasio is no saint, he's going to be a dick to the other civil services as well, like a lot of mayors. I think Mr. Lynch is an abhorrent edit: bigot and I believe many would be pretty firmly in support of his ouster. Lynch and whoever else claims to represent the NYPD is also at fault for whatever raw deals they get. Nonsense fucked around with this message at 00:02 on Dec 23, 2014 |
|
#
?
Dec 22, 2014 23:17
|
|
|
moths posted:I'd actually love to see statistics concerning how dangerous it actually is to be a police officer relative to something like being a woman or trans, in terms of contributing factors to their death or abuse. I looked at some bureau of labor stuff, and we're lucky lumberjacks and commercial fishermen aren't throwing grenades on babies. Jobs involving heavy machinery tend to have higher fatality rates, although I'd imagine they skew toward workplace accidents rather than homicides, since armed suspects are more likely to shoot back than trees. Homicides and assaults alone, police are probably way up there with cab drivers and gas station clerks and the like.
|
|
#
?
Dec 22, 2014 23:58
|
|
|
As a reminder, the most obese profession in the USA is cops & security guards. So hearth attack is going to kill a number of them too.
|
|
#
?
Dec 23, 2014 00:05
|
|
|
moths posted:Does this mean they'd have to enforce the laws of the Soviet Union or that they'd be obligated to go Red Dawn? The sergeant thought the former, the cop who posted it was more sympathetic to the latter I think.
|
|
#
?
Dec 23, 2014 00:06
|
|
|
The oft-quoted statistic is 1 in 12 transgendered people are victims of murder.
|
|
#
?
Dec 23, 2014 00:07
|
|
|
SedanChair posted:The sergeant thought the former, the cop who posted it was more sympathetic to the latter I think. The whole conversation is a sad little picture of what's wrong with how cops think of themselves. They really have internalized that whole "They're just another gang" thing.
|
|
#
?
Dec 23, 2014 00:23
|
|
|
Intel&Sebastian posted:The whole conversation is a sad little picture of what's wrong with how cops think of themselves. They really have internalized that whole "They're just another gang" thing. You aren't kidding  "Who watches the wat.....holy poo poo are you guys even trying anymore?"
|
|
#
?
Dec 23, 2014 00:32
|
|
|
Nonsense posted:I know de Blasio is no saint
|
|
#
?
Dec 23, 2014 00:38
|
|
|
Zeitgueist posted:The oft-quoted statistic is 1 in 12 transgendered people are victims of murder. What study is that from?
|
|
#
?
Dec 23, 2014 00:39
|
|
|
eviltastic posted:What study is that from? Hard to find, I just read a blog post trying to find the original cite and can't. I'd think it's safe to say that transgendered folks get murdered at a higher rate than the average, but 1 in 12 might be slightly high without a solid source to back it up.
|
|
#
?
Dec 23, 2014 00:45
|
|
|
While looking for that info, I came across this report on hate violence against LGBTQ victims that has content relevant to the thread involving police misconduct. It's also really depressing.
|
|
#
?
Dec 23, 2014 00:56
|
|
|
Zeitgueist posted:Hard to find, I just read a blog post trying to find the original cite and can't. http://www.patheos.com/blogs/wwjtd/2012/05/murder-statistics-of-transgender-people/
|
|
#
?
Dec 23, 2014 00:58
|
|
|
Misogynist posted:I've never seen a proper attribution to that statistic either, but here's a good spread of other statistics that are cited: Yeah that's the blog post I read. Basically it says it's clear a disproportionate number of victims are trans but nobody knows for sure exactly how much.
|
|
#
?
Dec 23, 2014 00:59
|
|
|
Zeitgueist posted:You aren't kidding http://youtube.com/watch?v=qv2XGQBcvxQ
|
|
#
?
Dec 23, 2014 01:01
|
|
|
Zeitgueist posted:Yeah that's the blog post I read.
|
|
#
?
Dec 23, 2014 01:04
|
|
|
SedanChair posted:A sergeant told him that it's the police's job to enforce order, and that if the Soviet Union conquered America tomorrow it would still be their job. Now this cop and the others on the board disagreed with this idea, but apparently it's out there.
|
|
#
?
Dec 23, 2014 01:15
|
|
|
Dead Reckoning posted:I don't really see the problem with that statement. Most of the low level nuts and bolts work of government is the same no matter who's in charge, Democrat, Republican or Communist Puppet Regime. The guy stamping passports in LAX is still going to do that (with his new hammer and sickle stamp.) The folks working at the water and power utilities are going to respond to service calls, so the taps keep running and the lights stay on. If a patrol officer sees his job as writing tickets, taking reports, and trying to keep citizens from killing or robbing each other as much as possible, it's entirely reasonable for him to see his role as helping people keep their lives and society going, rather than being about The Big Picture. I certainly don't think the guy writing parking tickets in Omsk in 1951 worried about whether it was moral to participate in a government run by Stalin. Sure, but if you point out "Cops aren't about justice, they're about enforcing whomever is in power" people get all upset. Even though it's the same as what you just said.
|
|
#
?
Dec 23, 2014 01:16
|
|
|
Zeitgueist posted:
Last calculation of US lifetime murder rate I could find (from 1997) is 1 in ~240, though that number goes down to 1 in 40 for black men (if I did my math right). http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/1999/99sec5.pdf Doubtful any specific statistics exist on transgender murders, but wouldn't be shocking if it were in the ballpark.
|
|
#
?
Dec 23, 2014 01:16
|
|
|
Xandu posted:Last calculation of US lifetime murder rate I could find (from 1997) is 1 in ~240, though that number goes down to 1 in 40 for black men (if I did my math right). I wouldn't be surprised either, but it would be nice to have a good cite on it.
|
|
#
?
Dec 23, 2014 01:17
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 4, 2024 05:42 |
|
|
Dead Reckoning posted:I don't really see the problem with that statement. Most of the low level nuts and bolts work of government is the same no matter who's in charge, Democrat, Republican or Communist Puppet Regime. The guy stamping passports in LAX is still going to do that (with his new hammer and sickle stamp.) The folks working at the water and power utilities are going to respond to service calls, so the taps keep running and the lights stay on. If a patrol officer sees his job as writing tickets, taking reports, and trying to keep citizens from killing or robbing each other as much as possible, it's entirely reasonable for him to see his role as helping people keep their lives and society going, rather than being about The Big Picture. I certainly don't think the guy writing traffic citations in Omsk in 1951 worried about whether it was moral to participate in a government run by Stalin. But the flip-side is that you don't hear anti-doctor sentiment in the same way you do anti-police sentiment. A lot of people feel like there's anti-police attitudes that go beyond reform. BrutalistMcDonalds fucked around with this message at 01:35 on Dec 23, 2014 |
|
#
?
Dec 23, 2014 01:32
|
|
