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The most swedish thing you can possibly do is to obsess endlessly over what is typically swedish.TheFluff posted:I didn't say we should, but doing the SD thing and trying to reinvent an ethnic identity just to use it as an excuse for conflict with others is most definitely not the answer. That said, our own lack of identity causes confusion and conflicts on its own when other ethnicities demand that we respect theirs, because in our modern world of glass and steel where our traditions are slowly being eroded away it just seems like that kind of stuff can't be all that important. The things that bring us together.
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Dec 23, 2014 01:33
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Poil posted:The most swedish thing you can possibly do is to obsess endlessly over what is typically swedish. With a proper assimilation program, yes (like in the US).
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Dec 23, 2014 01:37
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computer parts posted:With a proper assimilation program, yes (like in the US). is this sarcasm?
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Dec 23, 2014 07:19
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Groda posted:is this sarcasm? The very existence of a "white" identity for European descended Americans should tell you how successful their integration programs were. Hell, they even almost integrated Hispanics of various nationalities into the "white" category too.
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Dec 23, 2014 07:49
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Swedes are Northern Europeans living in Sweden. Your welcome.
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Dec 23, 2014 11:03
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TheNakedFantastic posted:Swedes are Northern Europeans living in Sweden. Your welcome. Racist
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Dec 23, 2014 12:03
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Is the Northern European qualifier a paper bag test or just to keep out vile papists?
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Dec 23, 2014 12:04
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Prav posted:Is the Northern European qualifier a paper bag test or just to keep out vile papists? Papists have been allowed to enter Northern Europe since 1956 
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Dec 23, 2014 13:42
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computer parts posted:With a proper assimilation program, yes (like in the US). Yes. The American assimilation program: you are told what you can't do anymore and what you can do in very blunt terms - before you leave your original country if you are a refugee. Then you get a bit of monthly cash for a short time and an address where you can take classes in English. Depending on your status you might get some money for 6 months or perhaps a little longer, or not at all, but it won't last very long no matter what. Then you are off to fend for yourself. If you can't find a job, you will go hungry and most who don't make it head home. If you are criminally inclined, you will be immediately deported. I agree this is a good program. However this would never fly in most EU countries who receive any meaningful number of immigrants, especially Nordic ones. It would be called "inhumane" and racis' and whatnot. Yet, a thing: Somalians do not integrate very well anywhere in Europe and are notorious for their inability and disinterest in getting along with the society at large. No wonder: they hardly have many tools for it, despite a new generation of younger (female) Somalis showing a lot of promise. Yet, they are doing ok in somewhere like... Minnesota. Sure they still earn only 30-50% of average local income but by and large do fine. But the countries who receive 'em in EU refuse to learn anything of it. I wonder why. Other reasons why you can't compare Europe and US: quote:The reasons go beyond America’s nation-of-immigrants heritage, although that’s important. Compared with Europe, the U.S. attracts more immigrants who share the dominant faith. (Imagine if Mexicans built mosques.) An economy that, until recently, had lots of entry-level jobs has made it easier for immigrants to find work. American schools generally provide students second chances, while Europeans are more likely to leave stragglers on vocational tracks. The U.S. also had Martin Luther King Jr.—the civil-rights movement, cresting just before the current mass migration started, bequeathed a robust apparatus for promoting opportunity. And American culture sells, in all its tawdriness and splendor. In Europe, the children of immigrants sometimes cling to the Old Country more than their parents do: sons import brides. In the U.S., the bigger danger is assimilating too fast: children get fat eating french fries and watching TV. Indeed. It's completely apples and oranges. But we could still try to take something out of their book, seeing that it works so much better.
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Dec 23, 2014 13:47
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I don't know why we expect this thread to be any constructive though since it's dominated by a racist Finn and one SD voter whom together derails the whole thing into a circular strawman highschool debate surrounding immigration. Immigration, which is a relatively minor problem facing Sweden or Norway today compared to the nonsensical taxcuts, high youth unemployment, collapsing healthcare, miserable elderlycare and gutted defense in face of Russian agression etc. But no, let's make a real ruckus about Swedens 11.000 Syrian migrants last year. That's really representative of the problems we have. gently caress you all. And for the love of all that's holy stop replying to Ligur or Cardiac's bullshit. Postorder Trollet89 fucked around with this message at 14:06 on Dec 23, 2014 |
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Dec 23, 2014 14:00
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Poor you. You will, one day, grow up though. Don't worry. It comes with a thicker skin. Then you can perhaps stop endlessly debating the evils of SD (a rather minor problem)  edit: but to be honest, I actually tried to think why Postorder Trollet would get so mad about the post above - but couldn't think of any. He just rages because someone he dislikes made a post? Is he in disagreement with something specific he could formulate in some other way except screaming and cursing on the internet? Why does he think minor problems have to be ignored as long as larger ones exist, because nobody in the world ever works or thinks like that for real (every minor problem usually has someone trying to fix it)? It's all a mystery! Ligur fucked around with this message at 14:17 on Dec 23, 2014 |
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Dec 23, 2014 14:05
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Postorder Trollet89 posted:I don't know why we expect this thread to be any constructive though since it's dominated by a racist Finn and one SD voter whom together derails the whole thing into a circular strawman highschool debate surrounding immigration. Immigration, which is a relatively minor problem facing Sweden or Norway today compared to the nonsensical taxcuts, high youth unemployment, collapsing healthcare, miserable elderlycare and gutted defense in face of Russian agression etc. Oh no, different opinions!
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Dec 23, 2014 14:52
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Call it whatever you want, but this thread has become a prime example of your typical flashback thread on immigration issues minus the really vulgar racism. Immigration as debated by Swedes on the internet devolve into a pretty pointless circular debate that never really goes anywhere becuase one side just don't understand that it's not 1954 anymore and can't bring anything to the table besides how awful foreigners are, allegedly.
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Dec 23, 2014 15:25
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And the other side cannot accept or understand there are other reasons for being careful with mass immigration, other to being prejudiced and/or thinking foreigners are awful. I literally don't know a single person who thinks like that. Sure anecdotes don't go a a long way and no doubt those exist, but to shove everyone under the same supposed way of thinking is quite dishonest. And I never use the word "literally" but literally in this case, it is literal.
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Dec 23, 2014 15:31
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Ligur posted:Yes. The American assimilation program: you are told what you can't do anymore and what you can do in very blunt terms - before you leave your original country if you are a refugee. Then you get a bit of monthly cash for a short time and an address where you can take classes in English. Depending on your status you might get some money for 6 months or perhaps a little longer, or not at all, but it won't last very long no matter what. Then you are off to fend for yourself. If you can't find a job, you will go hungry and most who don't make it head home. If you are criminally inclined, you will be immediately deported. Refugees aren't the only immigrants. The US is culturally just better at integrating immigrants.
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Dec 23, 2014 16:47
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Postorder Trollet89 posted:Call it whatever you want, but this thread has become a prime example of your typical flashback thread on immigration issues minus the really vulgar racism. Immigration as debated by Swedes on the internet devolve into a pretty pointless circular debate that never really goes anywhere becuase one side just don't understand that it's not 1954 anymore and can't bring anything to the table besides how awful foreigners are, allegedly. Yes, I agree that debating is easier when both sides agree before the debate starts. I'm not sure what there is to say after an outburst like that. You're entitled to your opinion, I guess?
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Dec 23, 2014 16:59
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it would be better if we could discuss political issues that are actually, you know, issues. instead of all immigration, all the time gently caress, one of the main protagonists of that discourse is a Finn, making his touching concern for Sweden and Norway's immigration issues completely loving bonkers in any historical context (Finns being the original unwashed immigrant diluting our aryan culture up here)
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Dec 23, 2014 17:03
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computer parts posted:Refugees aren't the only immigrants. I disagree
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Dec 23, 2014 17:07
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computer parts posted:Refugees aren't the only immigrants. Nobody ever makes the argument refugees are the only immigrants. Like, ever. Most of all not the people who are critical of very liberal immigration policies. Their arguments after economic factors usually come down to what kind of immigrants you can receive and still call it enriching, useful, etc. quote:The US is culturally just better at integrating immigrants. No poo poo. There's also a bit of a concensus why this might be so to those who are interested. And if you give a poo poo about what opinions people have in that regard (not talking about you, as the person who wrote the message I quoted here, using the "you" as used in English i.e. people who might take note of the topic in general) then just follow the leads: what is done differently, what isn't done at all, what are the results. The quote from The Atlantic I pasted is pretty good as well if you want to figure stuff out. V. Illych L. posted:gently caress, one of the main protagonists of that discourse is a Finn, making his touching concern for Sweden and Norway's immigration issues completely loving bonkers in any historical context (Finns being the original unwashed immigrant diluting our aryan culture up here) Why can't you reflect on the current situation, and then figure out how it differs from the past, also somewhere else altogether, but instead want to make comparisons that have no substance? Say, Finnish and Swedish immigrants to the US (and there were plenty!) were moving into an undeveloped wilderness (stolen from now mostly extinct original natives), where they could, if capable, carve their own place. Those who didn't make it came back. Later on, Finnish immigrants to Sweden (our former colonial masters for centuries) immigrated because there were available jobs to be had, many of them low-tier skill-wise. poo poo, all of the women in my family who are about my mothers age used to work for a year or two in a Norwegian Fish factory in their late teens or early 20s to make some money. But all of that has little to do with you paying smugglers 200sek or whatever to get into a certain country, and then destroying your passport or other documents just before you request asylum and receiving a free of charge, gratuitous apartment and welfare benefits forever because human rights or something. And then "re-unifying" your family to the new country? But this makes a major, often the largest single group of immigrants to Finland; never mind Norway or Sweden. Yet somehow people who are obviously not stupid keep making the comparison "back in the 60s people also moved to work in the factory.... blaa blaa" and "US frontiersman 120 years go...." so you can't argue against it ahhahaaa, but it's not like that today. The world has changed a bit. Ligur fucked around with this message at 17:32 on Dec 23, 2014 |
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Dec 23, 2014 17:11
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Ligur posted:Nobody ever makes the argument refugees are the only immigrants. Like, ever. Your response quite clearly indicated in that direction. quote:No poo poo. There's also a bit of a concensus why this might be so to those who are interested.
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Dec 23, 2014 17:13
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There's arbetsasyl, permanent asyl and asyl på grund av familjanknytning All of this administered by Asylverket according to Asylsökarlagen.
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Dec 23, 2014 17:13
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computer parts posted:Your response quite clearly indicated in that direction. Are you just assuming poo poo because you wish to disagree? Or how did my response indicate that unless you have a very low IQ? Regularly talking about refugees and immigrants and their different situations, as well as work based immigrants and asylum seekers and family re-unifiers etc. etc, should reveal, even to the stiffest of thinkers, that there might be some distinctions to be made. quote:Because they're not quite as virulently racist? So ummm you think that because US doesn't offer (any) immigrants free of charge, forever, benefits and housing over any reason they are less virulently racist than I am, or do you think Nordic countries (and me) are virulently racist because they offer those sort of things? Or what the gently caress. Ligur fucked around with this message at 17:44 on Dec 23, 2014 |
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Dec 23, 2014 17:41
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Ligur posted:
It's because(I'm assuming) several times people has tried to steer the conversation away from immigration, because its not leading anywhere, to discussing the other issues Sweden (or Scandinavia) is currently facing. But it always comes back to immigration. There was discussion about the housing problem many many pages ago, which suprise suprise ended up being an immigration debate. The thread was made to discuss Swedish politics, but it never gets away from the immigration debate. As if it was the only issue. Some of us wants to read and discuss different views on taxes, socialdemocracy, liberals ETC. But it always ends up being about loving immigration. And I'm pretty sure its you and Cardiac (possibly a few others) who are the only ones who don't realise that immigration in itself is not a problem, in fact it can end up being a net gain. As long as our economy is properly cared for. (I.E not selling out all of our cash-cow companies such as Vin och Sprit.) But there is no room at all for these debates in this thread cause it's always end up back at immigration. loving reddit threads has better discussion. So I'm asking you now, please, go 10 pages of this thead without bringing up immigration as an issue so that we can debate other things. edit; I suggest discussing NATO membership, our role in european security, or the possibilty/benefits/whatevs of a Nordic Union rather then EU. fanfic insert fucked around with this message at 19:31 on Dec 23, 2014 |
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Dec 23, 2014 19:28
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RajCooper posted:The thread was made to discuss Swedish politics, but it never gets away from the immigration debate. As if it was the only issue. Some of us wants to read and discuss different views on taxes, socialdemocracy, liberals ETC. But it always ends up being about loving immigration.
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Dec 23, 2014 19:34
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A Buttery Pastry posted:Typical Swede. Sees "Scandinavian politics thread", reads "Swedish politics thread". It was first Swedish Politics Election edition before it was made into a Scandinavian, hence the parenthesis earlier. Those things I listed must be relevant to the other scandinavian/nordic countries no?
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Dec 23, 2014 19:41
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RajCooper posted:It was first Swedish Politics Election edition before it was made into a Scandinavian, hence the parenthesis earlier. Those things I listed must be relevant to the other scandinavian/nordic countries no?
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Dec 23, 2014 19:57
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RajCooper posted:Those things I listed must be relevant to the other scandinavian/nordic countries no? The Nordic Union thing isn't really relevant for Norwegians
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Dec 23, 2014 20:02
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Alhazred posted:The Nordic Union thing isn't really relevant for Norwegians Oh come on, you flew too close to the sun and as a result your brent wings are melting. You've had your chance at being the Dubai of Scandinavia.
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Dec 23, 2014 21:27
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Hob_Gadling posted:Yes, I agree that debating is easier when both sides agree before the debate starts. It's not about the idea that both sides have to agree which is dumb and not what I said. However, for some reason these discussions always boil down to a Swedish version of Tribal politics. It's the Marxist-Liberal-Anti-Swedish-Aryan-Genocide crowd vs the We-Hate-PK-Media-And-Muslims brigades on the other side. I've not seen any internet discussion on Nordic politics as whole where a few SD trolls wont derail the whole goddamn thread about immigration, not even on freaking dancarlin.com. My point is: Why can't we talk about anything else? Why do you keep talking about immigration despite the fact that the discussion has gone nowhere beyond Cardilac and Ligur calling well known liberal news outlets marxist for 20 pages? It's almost Christmas eve and maybe we should find something else to talk about than awful muslims for five seconds? But not now since you all better have more important poo poo to do. God Jul på er och hoppas ni kan tänka på något annat än invandrare. Postorder Trollet89 fucked around with this message at 22:20 on Dec 23, 2014 |
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Dec 23, 2014 22:13
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Xoidanor posted:Oh come on, you flew too close to the sun and as a result your brent wings are melting. You've had your chance at being the Dubai of Scandinavia. All the more reason not to share any of those precious oil kroner.
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Dec 23, 2014 23:50
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I would also be down with this thread being somewhat different from the comment-fields of our newspaper (the home of the racist/fascist vocal minority), but it would probably require some thread rules. Our non-Scandinavian finn friend self-imposed sabattical lasted what, a couple of hours after the probation lifted? For example, I'm rather interested in what your take is on the NOK/SEK value situation. It's not been this equal in a pretty long time. Are Norwegian grocery prices going up? Internet shopping is a right bitch at the moment 
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Dec 24, 2014 00:43
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Biomute posted:For example, I'm rather interested in what your take is on the NOK/SEK value situation. It's not been this equal in a pretty long time. Are Norwegian grocery prices going up? Internet shopping is a right bitch at the moment  e: unless you mean historically Noctone fucked around with this message at 03:40 on Dec 24, 2014 |
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Dec 24, 2014 03:36
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Guyz. Read the posts. It's not only me and Cardiac who start talking about immigration and SD and never quit with it. Not by a long shot. I can shut up for now since yeah it is pretty fruitless (who was it that said people will never convice each other?), but you'll probably get back to those topics without us, within a page or two.
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Dec 24, 2014 07:48
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Biomute posted:For example, I'm rather interested in what your take is on the NOK/SEK value situation. It's not been this equal in a pretty long time. Are Norwegian grocery prices going up? Internet shopping is a right bitch at the moment I'm sorry but can you elaborate on this? I've heard pretty much nothing about the norwegian buying sprees since this summer and this is news to me.
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Dec 24, 2014 08:48
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RajCooper posted:It's because(I'm assuming) several times people has tried to steer the conversation away from immigration, because its not leading anywhere, to discussing the other issues Sweden (or Scandinavia) is currently facing. But it always comes back to immigration. There was discussion about the housing problem many many pages ago, which suprise suprise ended up being an immigration debate. The thread was made to discuss Swedish politics, but it never gets away from the immigration debate. As if it was the only issue. Some of us wants to read and discuss different views on taxes, socialdemocracy, liberals ETC. But it always ends up being about loving immigration. So you are saying we shouldn't discuss what the current subjects in Swedish politics are? Hint: Immigration and the forms of government are the current subjects, in case you have missed it. But I would be perfectly happy to discuss the forms of government and how S and Alliansen apparently wants to lock down the budget and get it through by minority votes, simply since none of them are mature enough to compromise. S+M is something that would actually benefit Swedish politics, but both of them are locked down in their trenches and have been like that for the last 30 years or so. Immigration by itself is not a problem as long as people end up with jobs. However it is not a net gain even in the best cases, since you need to expand social services to accommodate for them. Best you can hope for is +/- 0. However that is not what is happening in Sweden. 50% of the immigrants still don't have work after 7 years, and that is not due to lack of integration. Apparently Sweden is among the best countries in the world for integration (http://www.mipex.eu/countries. 58% of the foreign born have work, and the level needs to be 72% in order to not be a burden on the Swedish economy. Why doesn't it work better then? Part of the reason is that the labour market have large tresholds and the amount of simple jobs are very few, and in other countries these types of jobs serve as integration tools. So we have larger competition for simple jobs, which also directly affects youth unemployment for obvious reasons. Another reason is that taking people from poorer countries and assuming they are per default going to fit in like cogs in the Swedish machine is naive. Our social security system also provides a disincentive for taking lower payed works. All of this would be more manageable with lower immigration levels, but currently we have the highest immigration per capita in Europe. Migrationsverket is close to collapsing and it was actually the budget post that increased in the budget. Arbetsförmedlingan and social security systems are approaching collapse by all indications and there are no available cheap apartments in Sweden, and all of this can be attributed to immigration. Swedish schools are going downwards, where foreign born kids get the worst of it through segregation and white flight. So yeah, let us don't talk about immigration since it is a minor problem. Being poor is not a reason to get asylum in Sweden, and good luck keeping the Swedish welfare system if all refuges in the world would end up in Sweden. I like our welfare system, and would like to keep it. But if we don't deal with the levels of the immigration, I see 2 future scenarios, neither : 1. Like in France, where you have suburbs where people have been unemployed for 3 generations and with high segregation. 2. Decreases in the social security system, healthcare and labor security which is what the neoliberals are working for. I would like to avoid both, since I like how our system works. Postorder Trollet89 posted:I don't know why we expect this thread to be any constructive though since it's dominated by a racist Finn and one SD voter whom together derails the whole thing into a circular strawman highschool debate surrounding immigration. Immigration, which is a relatively minor problem facing Sweden or Norway today compared to the nonsensical taxcuts, high youth unemployment, collapsing healthcare, miserable elderlycare and gutted defense in face of Russian agression etc. Oh, a constructive post.  I am sort of amused how thin-skinned people are on a forum known for its internet trolls. For someone accusing people of strawman debates, you sure assume I am a SD voter. How is that logic working out for you? Also, stop reading ETC http://www.tino.us/2014/12/etc-och-mediavarlden-granskar-logner/ and tell me when you have published in PNAS like Tino. Cardiac fucked around with this message at 12:19 on Dec 24, 2014 |
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Dec 24, 2014 12:13
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Postorder Trollet89 posted:My point is: Why can't we talk about anything else? I suppose there's an underlying reason similar to Israel-Palestine discussions. I've never seen any thread here about Israel that isn't about fighting with Palestinians within 5 messages on the first page. It's just one of those things.
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Dec 24, 2014 12:32
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Postorder Trollet89 posted:It's not about the idea that both sides have to agree which is dumb and not what I said. However, for some reason these discussions always boil down to a Swedish version of Tribal politics. It's the Marxist-Liberal-Anti-Swedish-Aryan-Genocide crowd vs the We-Hate-PK-Media-And-Muslims brigades on the other side. I've not seen any internet discussion on Nordic politics as whole where a few SD trolls wont derail the whole goddamn thread about immigration, not even on freaking dancarlin.com. Yeah. Biomute posted:I would also be down with this thread being somewhat different from the comment-fields of our newspaper (the home of the racist/fascist vocal minority), but it would probably require some thread rules. Our non-Scandinavian finn friend self-imposed sabattical lasted what, a couple of hours after the probation lifted? 'Nother vote for this. Not that immigration isn't an issue but there are a lot of other things happening in Scandinavia that bears discussing without derails. E: Almost forgot SplitSoul posted:Go' jul, j'øll.
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Dec 24, 2014 13:01
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Cardiac posted:
Cardiac posted:and all of this can be attributed to immigration. Do you even read what you write? You list a whole bunch of problems, and at the end of it you blame it all on immigration. Yes it put further strain on it. But it is NOT that fact that we accept refugees that keeps cheap rentals from being built. It is NOT the fact that we accept refugees that has caused a near school collapse. It is NOT the fact that we accept refugees that keeps our hospitals from being effective. How can you be so closed of from reality that this is the only thing you can discuss. We had these issues before Syria/Iraq happened, it's been in a steady decline since atleast the 90's and it's pretty drat naive to think it's all becuase of this one thing. The housing problem is not something new, it should've been dealt with 10 years ago when it was pretty loving clear that if the trend keeps going we'll end up with a real problem. But yet nothing has been done, is this because of immigration also? You bring up Arbetsförmedlingen, who are pretty much know for being poo poo in every way. I am what Björn Söder would call an ethnic Swede, and they couldn't help me at all. How about we discuss how it could be improved, rather then blaming it on immigration time and time again. Even if it is all because of immigration, atleast join us in a discussion on how to solve these things, rather then proclaiming blame. We're not about to start deporting the masses, unless SD gets in charge, which you dont want(?), so now we have to deal with it- So yeah, let us not talk about only immigration since it is a minor problem among several huge ones.
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Dec 24, 2014 13:38
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RajCooper posted:Do you even read what you write? You list a whole bunch of problems, and at the end of it you blame it all on immigration. SD: the person
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Dec 25, 2014 06:54
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Ceterum censeo immigration esse delendam.
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Dec 25, 2014 15:08
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