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Barry Convex posted:This is apparently a full-page ad in the NYT today. Nothing new for those who are familiar with the usual rhetoric, but pretty vile nonetheless. http://www.haaretz.com/news/national/.premium-1.601759
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Dec 24, 2014 21:21
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Brainbread posted:... isn't same-sex marriage illegal in Israel? Well, civil marriage doesn't really exist in Israel, it's left to the religious authorities.
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Dec 24, 2014 21:27
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Brainbread posted:... isn't same-sex marriage illegal in Israel? Well, Israel *is* genuinely progressive on gay rights relative to the occupied territories or elsewhere in the region. Just not to the extent that it ought to be or claims to be, especially regarding gay Palestinians seeking asylum. And of course, the implication that this gives Israel a blank check on human rights is beyond repugnant. But sadly, a lot of my fellow gays (especially my fellow Jewish gays) buy into this garbage.
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Dec 24, 2014 21:35
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Barry Convex posted:Well, Israel *is* genuinely progressive on gay rights relative to the occupied territories or elsewhere in the region. Just not to the extent that it ought to be or claims to be, especially regarding gay Palestinians seeking asylum. Its not that Israel gets a blank check, its that were Palestinian groups to win control over their stated objectives, ie a single-state solution under arab control, then all the homosexual individuals in Israel would be subject to mass extermination. How can you share power with someone who proclaims, "Death to your family"?
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Dec 24, 2014 21:37
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Barry Convex posted:Well, Israel *is* genuinely progressive on gay rights relative to the occupied territories or elsewhere in the region. Just not to the extent that it ought to be or claims to be, especially regarding gay Palestinians seeking asylum. Yeah, I don't disagree on the first part! Palestine sure as hell isn't a safe place for someone who is queer! Looking online though - Israel explicitly bans Queer Palestinian Asylum Seekers because they're Palestinians. Which is... kind of the opposite of their message there. But Israel clearly gives no shits about international law, so blanket bans on Palestinian Asylum seekers for any reason doesn't seem out of place (it is prohibited to return an asylum seeker to a place where he or she would be in a life endangering situation). At least they sometimes sort of maybe push the application to other countries though. If they stay in Palestine, they are in danger because of a rampantly homophobic culture. If they escape to Israel and are caught, they'll be deported and possibly murdered for their orientation or gender identity (according to the linked report, they are often deported against the order of judges. The police themselves are apparently deporting them prior to their appointments with the courts, as well). But you know, its a great place according to gay Americans!
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Dec 24, 2014 22:09
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None of the religious institutions that would be willing to recognize gay marriage in Israel are recognized by any of the religious courts because they are willing to recognize gay marriage. It wasn''t until 2006 that Israel would even acknowledge gay marriages from other countries.
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Dec 24, 2014 22:15
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My Imaginary GF posted:Its not that Israel gets a blank check, its that were Palestinian groups to win control over their stated objectives, ie a single-state solution under arab control, then all the homosexual individuals in Israel would be subject to mass extermination. Except that PLO formally endorses and seeks a two state solution. All Arabs in Israel, including the gay ones are and would be subjected to apartheid and life as either a second class citizen or a colonial subject. So yes, Israel gets a blank check. Ironically enough that gay non-Jewish American doesn't have a chance in hell of even becoming a citizen, and even if he did he would be an inferior one. He's free to wave the rainbow flag on a Tel Aviv beach I guess, but there are countries where you can do that and not be treated like dirt if you actually live there and aren't a member of the master race. DarkCrawler fucked around with this message at 22:31 on Dec 24, 2014 |
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Dec 24, 2014 22:25
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FRINGE posted:Its funny (not funny) but years ago when some of us would point that out the various Israeli propagandists had an easy time making fun of the crazy conspiracy people. I don't think that's the reason they have an easy time making fun of you. It's because you repeatedly spew unverified infodumps as long as they seem to prop up a narrative that is convenient for you. The people who bring up serious issues they yell at to go live in Gaza or threaten with murder and rape. emanresu tnuocca posted:So, two things, apparently an IDF soldier was seriously wounded during the incident earlier today: http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4607234,00.html It would be utterly delicious if, after years of trying to push Feiglin out of the Knesset using silly technical maneuvers, Netanyahu is pushed out of leadership in this way. As for Lieberman's party, wow; where did they find 30 people to be involved in such a scandal?! emanresu tnuocca posted:Israeli propaganda is for people who already support Israel, it's a way to promote talking points. Israel relies on its existing power base, it doesn't seek new converts. Pretty much. They can then point to this and tell their constituents at home "hey, see, we're doing something with this money you're paying us! We are Hasbaraing, it's not working because they're antisemites!" As for gay rights, one of the things that came out of the refusenik letter by intelligence officers a few months back, is that Israel uses the homophobia in Palestinian society to recruit homosexuals as informants, thus exacerbating their persecution there. It is despicable that they then pinkwash themselves as this pro-gay utopia. This is before I talk about how it is like there in practice in places outside of Tel Aviv. It's better than most other countries in the area, but it's no San Fran.
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Dec 24, 2014 23:07
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More and more, things are slowly lumering towards Nakba 2: Nakba Harder.DarkCrawler posted:Except that PLO formally endorses and seeks a two state solution. I feel like a broken record for saying this, but you are talking to noted fascist robot MyImaginaryGF. He will not read what you said, will make no attempt to udnerstand, and will poo poo the thread for pages arguing the same insane points over and over again. Talking to a wall would be more constructive.
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Dec 24, 2014 23:07
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Absurd Alhazred posted:It would be utterly delicious if, after years of trying to push Feiglin out of the Knesset using silly technical maneuvers, Netanyahu is pushed out of leadership in this way. Gurvitz claims to have reviewed the Likud rule book and that there is absolutely no cause to think that a comptroller has the authority to disqualify anyone, I'll take his word for it therefore I guess it's an internal power play, Sa'ar behind the scenes or Feiglin? I actually doubt Feiglin is in anyway involved cause he seems like a competent politician and he knows better than to alienate King Bibi. And for the second paragraph, "lol" at living anywhere outside of Tel-Aviv regardless.
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Dec 24, 2014 23:33
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emanresu tnuocca posted:Gurvitz claims to have reviewed the Likud rule book and that there is absolutely no cause to think that a comptroller has the authority to disqualify anyone, I'll take his word for it therefore I guess it's an internal power play, Sa'ar behind the scenes or Feiglin? I actually doubt Feiglin is in anyway involved cause he seems like a competent politician and he knows better than to alienate King Bibi. quote:And for the second paragraph, "lol" at living anywhere outside of Tel-Aviv regardless. ETA: LOL, the Kachniks' election campaign started, they're calling Bennett a brother to Tibi and not a true representative of real right-wing Jews. Absurd Alhazred fucked around with this message at 00:39 on Dec 25, 2014 |
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Dec 24, 2014 23:45
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My Imaginary GF posted:Its not that Israel gets a blank check, its that were Palestinian groups to win control over their stated objectives, ie a single-state solution under arab control, then all the homosexual individuals in Israel would be subject to mass extermination. It's like Hitchens 3.0. Neo neo con. Maybe we can convince him that Liberalism in One Country is feasible for the U.S. instead of permanent counterrevolution.
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Dec 25, 2014 01:17
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MonsieurChoc posted:More and more, things are slowly lumering towards Nakba 2: Nakba Harder. I agree that you shouldn't have conversations with My Imaginary GF* and he should be added to an ignore list to make the task easier, but his talking points aren't fascist at all. Real fascists support the one state solution with no jews left alive in Palestine (or anywhere else), fyi. The few words I've read of him because some sad bastard quoted him were strongly in Israel support, which is the opposite of what fascists say. On that topic, I'd say that in Europe Israel is losing what little support it had, only moderate rightists are left in their field. Everyone else finds enough reasons to dislike Israel, wether it's a racist or ethical/political point of view. *he's very likely just joking, but he's boring and not fun at that either Cippalippus fucked around with this message at 03:53 on Dec 25, 2014 |
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Dec 25, 2014 03:51
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My Imaginary GF posted:How can you share power with someone who proclaims, "Death to your family"? good question 
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Dec 25, 2014 04:20
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Cippalippus posted:I agree that you shouldn't have conversations with My Imaginary GF* and he should be added to an ignore list to make the task easier, but his talking points aren't fascist at all. Real fascists support the one state solution with no jews left alive in Palestine (or anywhere else), fyi. The few words I've read of him because some sad bastard quoted him were strongly in Israel support, which is the opposite of what fascists say. Except fascists in the UK explicitly support Israel even going as far as waving Israeli flags at their rallies? Not all fascists are Nazis dude.
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Dec 25, 2014 04:29
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How many of Europe's fash outfits dont support Israel? It's not like Fascism is just a synonym for rabid anti-semitism. It's even possible to be a Jewish Fascist 
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Dec 25, 2014 05:32
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Absurd Alhazred posted:I don't think that's the reason they have an easy time making fun of you. It's because you repeatedly spew unverified infodumps as long as they seem to prop up a narrative that is convenient for you.
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Dec 25, 2014 05:38
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FRINGE posted:Ive been told to leave the country plenty of times thanks. I dont know why you feel the need to justify the reactions of TIC and company. I think I've actually argued more coherently at TIC and co. than you have; I just think you're stealing other people's thunder, and should get over yourself.
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Dec 25, 2014 05:46
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eSports Chaebol posted:It's like Hitchens 3.0. Neo neo con. Maybe we can convince him that Liberalism in One Country is feasible for the U.S. instead of permanent counterrevolution. I like how not glossing over Saddam's crimes, and instead shedding as much light as possible on the full extent of how terrible he was makes you a neocon these days.
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Dec 25, 2014 05:49
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Volkerball posted:I like how not glossing over Saddam's crimes, and instead shedding as much light as possible on the full extent of how terrible he was makes you a neocon these days. Have you considered the fact that Dubya and company's crimes were objectively worse than Saddam's? It works on multiple levels including intent and body counts and the bit where the US supposedly held itself to a higher moral standard than a tinpot dictatorship.
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Dec 25, 2014 05:57
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syscall girl posted:Have you considered the fact that Dubya and company's crimes were objectively worse than Saddam's? One of that rear end in a top hat's few SCUDs fell near my grandmother's house in the Gulf War, and even I don't give a poo poo about this now long dead dictator. He was poo poo. So are a lot of US allies who did not and are not getting their nations rebuilt. Most importantly, this is the I/P thread, how about these discussions stick to the ME thread? This thread has plenty of useless derails to deal with as it is.
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Dec 25, 2014 06:01
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Absurd Alhazred posted:One of that rear end in a top hat's few SCUDs fell near my grandmother's house in the Gulf War, and even I don't give a poo poo about this now long dead dictator. He was poo poo. So are a lot of US allies who did not and are not getting their nations rebuilt. Point taken.
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Dec 25, 2014 06:09
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syscall girl posted:Have you considered the fact that Dubya and company's crimes were objectively worse than Saddam's? Nah, the Iran-Iraq War was several orders of magnitude more cruel and devastating than the Iraq War, even if you include Bush I's murderous sanctions, and it was entirely Saddam's fault. And I'm pretty sure ol' Chemical Ali had worse intentions than anyone in the US government could have gotten away with supporting. Regardless, do you feel that we should whitewash what Saddam did in order to further condemn the Iraq War, or should we be open and honest about what happened on both sides? If you believe the latter, Hitchens provided valuable context. Absurd Alhazred posted:One of that rear end in a top hat's few SCUDs fell near my grandmother's house in the Gulf War, and even I don't give a poo poo about this now long dead dictator. He was poo poo. So are a lot of US allies who did not and are not getting their nations rebuilt. Sorry about your thread, bud. What's the latest on the Herzog/Livni coalition, aside from it being poo poo?
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Dec 25, 2014 06:10
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Volkerball posted:Sorry about your thread, bud. What's the latest on the Herzog/Livni coalition, aside from it being poo poo? They christened (LOL) a new campaign office for the coalition. Apparently a bunch of the older Labor activists were not happy to see some people who had left the party for Kadima/Hatnua, like former chairman Amram Mitzna. There's a lot of awkwardness going on. Remember that Livni comes from a line of Begin supporters. She has repeatedly made it clear she isn't joining Labor herself. I'm guessing this whole thing will easily fall apart two minutes after the elections are over.
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Dec 25, 2014 06:17
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Volkerball posted:Nah, the Iran-Iraq War was several orders of magnitude more cruel and devastating than the Iraq War, even if you include Bush I's murderous sanctions, and it was entirely Saddam's fault. And I'm pretty sure ol' Chemical Ali had worse intentions than anyone in the US government could have gotten away with supporting. Regardless, do you feel that we should whitewash what Saddam did in order to further condemn the Iraq War, or should we be open and honest about what happened on both sides? If you believe the latter, Hitchens provided valuable context. Interesting. I guess I'm only familiar with the post Iran-Iraq war stuff. Chemical Ali had very bad intentions but I am more critical of people (from my country) who place war profiteering above the lives of innocents. Ignorance of the consequences is not a good excuse and usually feigned. Having an ethnic bias is almost more sympathetic (still horrible) to me than saying a bunch of people you don't know anything about are worth less than the weapons you can sell to exterminate them.
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Dec 25, 2014 06:23
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Absurd Alhazred posted:They christened (LOL) a new campaign office for the coalition. Apparently a bunch of the older Labor activists were not happy to see some people who had left the party for Kadima/Hatnua, like former chairman Amram Mitzna. There's a lot of awkwardness going on. Remember that Livni comes from a line of Begin supporters. She has repeatedly made it clear she isn't joining Labor herself. I'm guessing this whole thing will easily fall apart two minutes after the elections are over. It's pretty funny when a woman who came to power through Likud and has sounded just as nationalist as anyone in Israel at times is supposed to be a key cog in the "left." Looking more and more like a dumb political maneuver to overthrow Bibi for reasons that have nothing to do with policy. I expect when it fails, you'll probably be right.
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Dec 25, 2014 06:29
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Volkerball posted:It's pretty funny when a woman who came to power through Likud and has sounded just as nationalist as anyone in Israel at times is supposed to be a key cog in the "left." Looking more and more like a dumb political maneuver to overthrow Bibi for reasons that have nothing to do with policy. I expect when it fails, you'll probably be right. Considering that the current President who's being excoriated by the right for being too Arab-friendly is from Likud, and that a past leading Likud member, Meridor, called this government out for having no purpose, and that I know several former Likudniks who are yearning for Begin who at least was able to make peace (and have been posting a speech he made during or after the vote on the accord with Egypt that "yes, there are victims of peace; but they are nothing like the victims of war"), I don't know entirely how cynical this is. I think Livni might be one of the few Jewish non-leftists to realize that maybe, just maybe, Jews running all of Palestine as a naked ethnic dictatorship is not a sustainable way to get things done. That being said, nobody stopped her from leaving the Netanyahu government before she was kicked out. There's a lot of bullshit here, I don't really care as much about the motives as I do about how malleable their expressed positions make them to outside pressures.
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Dec 25, 2014 06:32
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Radio Prune posted:How many of Europe's fash outfits dont support Israel? It's not like Fascism is just a synonym for rabid anti-semitism. You had people going around all "One Land, One People, One Leader" for Bibi during the last massacre. Like, without any trace of irony.
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Dec 25, 2014 07:30
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Volkerball posted:I like how not glossing over Saddam's crimes, and instead shedding as much light as possible on the full extent of how terrible he was makes you a neocon these days. I was thinking more of his rhetoric about how the only possible response to Islamism is to double down on the violence
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Dec 25, 2014 08:18
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Lethal Drizzle posted:Except fascists in the UK explicitly support Israel even going as far as waving Israeli flags at their rallies? Fascists in the UK are even more ridiculous than anywhere else, but you'll find all the antisemitism you need in Italy, Germany and Spain - places where fascism actually matter(ed). Or are we going through the usual D&D retarded discussion, where seeing a flag in a fascist rally in the UK automatically makes every fascist in Europe kosher?
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Dec 25, 2014 13:59
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eSports Chaebol posted:I was thinking more of his rhetoric about how the only possible response to Islamism is to double down on the violence Yeah, I don't know what it is about militant atheists and just despising the poo poo out of Muslims. I'm not sure if they're attempting to be equal opportunity haters and failing or what, but all those guys are crazy intolerant towards Islam relative to other religions. It's weird.
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Dec 25, 2014 16:41
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Volkerball posted:Nah, the Iran-Iraq War was several orders of magnitude more cruel and devastating than the Iraq War, even if you include Bush I's murderous sanctions, and it was entirely Saddam's fault. And I'm pretty sure ol' Chemical Ali had worse intentions than anyone in the US government could have gotten away with supporting. Regardless, do you feel that we should whitewash what Saddam did in order to further condemn the Iraq War, or should we be open and honest about what happened on both sides? If you believe the latter, Hitchens provided valuable context. You forgot to mention that the US actively supported and was a huge ally of Saddam during the Iran-Iraq war. Where do you think he got his chemical weapons? We were more than happy to watch him gas those mean evil Iranians who took all that oil.
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Dec 25, 2014 16:54
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Peace Now are doing this facebook campaign where they share statements by former Likud prime ministers which contradict the hare brained statements of the current leadership, I enjoyed this one. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iSHyny7Ia8k I dedicate this post to resident Ariel Sharon fan Avshalom.
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Dec 25, 2014 17:04
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Cippalippus posted:Fascists in the UK are even more ridiculous than anywhere else, but you'll find all the antisemitism you need in Italy, Germany and Spain - places where fascism actually matter(ed). Relocating Jews to a non-European country was an early alternative to mass extermination floated around the Nazi party. Maybe support of Israel and anti-semitism aren't mutually exclusive positions? Most fascists are probably happy that the Jews can all go live in the Middle East with the barbaric Muslims instead of mucking up their pure white European gene pool.
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Dec 25, 2014 17:13
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Breivik splurges all over Israel in his "manifesto", he even copy pastes a caroline glick j-post op-ed iirc. Also, instead of looking for links between european fascism and Israel, why not just take a gander at how dudes like Danny Danon and Brother Bennet try to market themselves to the Israeli public ahead of the elections: http://972mag.com/watch-rightists-campaign-on-hate-and-arrogance/100466/ Also worth noting that Brother Bennet's party is joined by one Dr. Ronen Shoval of former "Im Tirzu" infamy, a dude whose opinions are so reminiscent of european fascism that when he tried to sue the operators of a facebook page who dubbed his movement a fascist one the court ruled that there are sufficient similarities between his ideology and fascism that it cannot be considered libelous to claim he is one. He's gonna feel right at home with the likes of Ayelet Shaked. emanresu tnuocca fucked around with this message at 17:42 on Dec 25, 2014 |
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Dec 25, 2014 17:25
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the boston bomber posted:You forgot to mention that the US actively supported and was a huge ally of Saddam during the Iran-Iraq war. Where do you think he got his chemical weapons? We were more than happy to watch him gas those mean evil Iranians who took all that oil. We aided Iran as well. Reagan was a piece of poo poo who just wanted everyone to die. Iraq had its own sophisticated CW production facilities, and was even making its own VX near the end of the war. Rumsfeld was involved in getting them some insecticides and computers and things that ended up being used in production, but that was far from a key pillar for their program. The US didn't order Saddam to open up concentration camps for Kurds, or to use civilians as human shields, or to start the war to begin with. If you try to take Saddam's agency away and place it all on the US, you're just showing your bias.
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Dec 25, 2014 17:27
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Volkerball posted:We aided Iran as well. Reagan was a piece of poo poo who just wanted everyone to die. Iraq had its own sophisticated CW production facilities, and was even making its own VX near the end of the war. Rumsfeld was involved in getting them some insecticides and computers and things that ended up being used in production, but that was far from a key pillar for their program. The US didn't order Saddam to open up concentration camps for Kurds, or to use civilians as human shields, or to start the war to begin with. If you try to take Saddam's agency away and place it all on the US, you're just showing your bias. Responding to this in the Middle East thread.
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Dec 25, 2014 17:41
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emanresu tnuocca posted:Breivik splurges all over Israel in his "manifesto", he even copy pastes a caroline glick j-post op-ed iirc.
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Dec 26, 2014 00:54
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CSM posted:Jews have mostly been replaced by Muslims as the scapegoat for a lot of European fascists. In Belgium the local fascists have become really friendly towards Jews (because all Jews hate Muslims as well right?) but they've been smart enough not to bite. Actually, from what I understand, the nationalists have managed to use this to gain ground in Antwerp, which has a large Jewish population. 
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Dec 26, 2014 01:06
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Absurd Alhazred posted:Actually, from what I understand, the nationalists have managed to use this to gain ground in Antwerp, which has a large Jewish population.
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Dec 26, 2014 01:15
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