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Yugioh needs some serious templating efforts, good god.
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Dec 25, 2014 00:57
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Ramos posted:Tutor a card for each spell you played that turn (which don't have a cost to begin with) and pull out a creature for free. It's nice to see other card games made the Storm mistake, too. homerlaw posted:Yugioh needs some serious templating efforts, good god. That's the first thing I think every time I see a Yu-Gi-Oh card (to be fair, it seems like pretty much no card/board game other than Magic can get wording right.)
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Dec 25, 2014 00:57
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My information about Yugioh is a few years out of date but here's what I remember: There are no Standard, Modern, or Limited formats. Their main format is "Advanced", which is basically Legacy. The only other format is Traditional, which is the equivalent of Vintage, but is unplayable because when you have a bunch of cards like a 0-mana Draw 2 and a 0-mana Draw 3 Discard 2 running around you end up with first-turn kills that work almost 100% of the time, and there's no equivalent to Force of Will to stop them. Because the combat mechanics are different, all creatures basically have haste, trample, and provoke. Players have 8000 life. Weak creatures with very strong effects usually have power in the 1000-1500; strong attackers are usually in the 2000+ range; and deck headliners are generally close to 3000. The only limit is that you can only summon one creature per turn, but that limit only applies to "normal" summons. Large creatures usually require you to sacrifice other creatures to summon them, but that rule also only applies to normal summons. You can get extra "special" summons from card effects that ignore all of those restrictions, and the game is littered with them, so summoning a bunch of monsters in one turn is trivial. Damage isn't really marked on creatures in Yugioh, so spells that would deal damage to creatures in MtG just kill them outright instead. It's also harder to cast spells during your opponent's turn. Instead of casting instants from your hand whenever you want, you have to play them face-down first, where they're vulnerable to your opponent's destruction effects. All of this makes offense much much faster in Yugioh. You can't attack on the first turn of the game, but winning on your second or third turn is common because it's so easy to swarm a bunch of monsters, each of which has power equal to a high percentage of the opponent's life, and attack with all of them - or, due to the lack of a mana system, to just combo off. Mass destruction effects are common because, between all creatures having provoke and the short game length, anything in play is practically already dead. In order to sell cards without limited or rotating formats, Yugioh uses the banlist aggressively to make the format pseudo-rotate. All good cards are in "archetypes", which are a bunch of cards that have a certain word in their name and buff other cards with that same word in their name. Every few months they release a couple new archetypes, including one with a bunch of incredibly powerful cards and a mythic rare with 3000 power that both summons itself and destroys the opponent's entire field for free. That card's cost goes to $300 immediately; JtMS would be completely unremarkable in Yugioh terms. Six months later, they ban that card and release a new, even stronger archetype with a newer, even stronger boss monster. Asymmetrikon posted:That's the first thing I think every time I see a Yu-Gi-Oh card (to be fair, it seems like pretty much no card/board game other than Magic can get wording right.) Dominion. 
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Dec 25, 2014 00:59
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YuGiOh also has an Anteater-Eating Ant.
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Dec 25, 2014 01:12
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homerlaw posted:Yugioh needs some serious templating efforts, good god. You have seen nothing, Yugioh breaks out like 10 point font on some cards 
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Dec 25, 2014 01:16
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Yugioh is basically Magic if R&D consisted of a bunch of 13 year old children.
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Dec 25, 2014 01:18
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One of the weirdest things about yu gi oh is that when they make a new tribal theme, instead of making a new subtype to go along with it, they just check to see whether there's a particular word in the card's name, and since the game is translated from japanese, you get things like: 
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Dec 25, 2014 01:24
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I would like to see a draft of yu gi oh... I imagine it would be equivalent to a sealed yu gi oh game, since it seems like there are "Good" cards, and there's no such thing as niches to fill... a level 1 monster with 400 attack and 500 defense is just as easy/difficult to summon as a level 4 monster with 2000 attack and 1800 defense. You just take the first, second, third etc. best cards from each pack, knowing the player before you got a better card than the one you did from the pack they past?
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Dec 25, 2014 01:30
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Yu gi oh sets don't really have more than one archetype in them, and packs are also 5 cards, so I don't think limited would be very good at all.
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Dec 25, 2014 01:33
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forbidden lesbian posted:Yugioh is basically Magic if R&D consisted of a bunch of 13 year old children.
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Dec 25, 2014 01:37
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Lots of other TCGs/CCGs are really fun. Not a lot of other games can say they have the consistency in rules or balance that Magic has.
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Dec 25, 2014 01:45
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I'm pretty sure YGO limited does exist, it's just super shallow and there's no thought put into it. I remember playing it at old prereleases.
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Dec 25, 2014 01:53
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Not sure I'm getting better at playing Magic thanks to MTGO, but my reimbursement claim-writing has definitely gone to the next level.
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Dec 25, 2014 01:56
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Lottery of Babylon posted:Instead of casting instants from your hand whenever you want, you have to play them face-down first, where they're vulnerable to your opponent's destruction effects. Am I crazy for thinking this is sorta a neat way to do poo poo on your opponents turn? Instant speed with the downside of possible countering (in a game that isn't loonball) seems like it could open up some interesting spaces. forbidden lesbian posted:You have seen nothing, Yugioh breaks out like 10 point font on some cards Snake lady with snake hair and snake hands which have snakes for tongues is the best art description ever.
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Dec 25, 2014 01:57
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Myriad Truths posted:I'm pretty sure YGO limited does exist, it's just super shallow and there's no thought put into it. I remember playing it at old prereleases. I do wonder what a Yugioh cube would be like. Seems like it would be interesting to try out and for some people, endlessly enjoyable.
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Dec 25, 2014 02:01
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Is constructed regarded as better value in MODO? I just can't see a way to make draft seem worthwhile, usually it's turn $12 of tickets into $2 of cards, then loose the first round because it doesn't think I should cast instants after blockers are declared.
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Dec 25, 2014 02:20
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The most annoying MODO thing is that if you have no untapped creatures it skips blockers. But if they time a tapping effect at the right time of pre-combat, if you OK it it will skip declare attackers and your whole combat step even if you have something like a Magosi.
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Dec 25, 2014 02:23
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Turns out there are yugioh cubes: https://www.pojo.biz/board/showthread.php?p=29903163 I kinda want to try this. The one thing about yugioh that's way better than magic is that there are rules enforcement engines that make playing for free on the computer super easy.
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Dec 25, 2014 02:24
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Magic: The Gathering: Megathread: Christmas Yugioh Edition
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Dec 25, 2014 02:26
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BizarroAzrael posted:Is constructed regarded as better value in MODO? I just can't see a way to make draft seem worthwhile, usually it's turn $12 of tickets into $2 of cards, then loose the first round because it doesn't think I should cast instants after blockers are declared. You have to set a stop for the declare blockers step or it will automatically pass priority when you would get it then. I understand not having a stop on every single step by default, but they do a poo poo job of communicating this quirk to new players.
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Dec 25, 2014 02:26
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Boxman posted:Am I crazy for thinking this is sorta a neat way to do poo poo on your opponents turn? Instant speed with the downside of possible countering (in a game that isn't loonball) seems like it could open up some interesting spaces. It's an interesting mechanic in principle. In practice it's very easy for your opponent to blow up all of your instants (traps) before attacking, at minimal cost. For example, here's one of the big $300 monsters from when I played:  In MtG-speak it's something like: Creature -- Dragon Haste, trample, provoke If there are exactly 3 black creatures in your graveyard, you may cast ~ without paying its mana cost. Exile a black creature from your graveyard: Destroy target permanent (including face-down instants). Activate this ability only any time you could cast a sorcery. 7/7 Graveyard manipulation is very easy in Yugioh, so it was almost trivial to summon this guy for free, destroy all your opponent's creatures and traps, and then attack with your army to win the game without fear of running into any trap cards that could disrupt the attack. Mirror Force is a 0-mana instant that reads "Destroy all attacking creatures" that was once on the restricted list, but it is now unlimited and considered unplayably weak because cards in play are just too fragile to still be around by the time your opponent is attacking. Dr. Stab posted:One of the weirdest things about yu gi oh is that when they make a new tribal theme, instead of making a new subtype to go along with it, they just check to see whether there's a particular word in the card's name, and since the game is translated from japanese, you get things like: My favorite was how all the "Frog" archetype support cards would specify "Except Frog the Jam". Frog the Jam was a very old, very weak vanilla with garbage stats that nobody would ever have any reason to use, but every single card in the archetype needed a clause specifically excluding it because its name didn't say "Frog" in the Japanese version and they couldn't think of any other solution. Apparently one of the newer archetypes is always referred to as "tellarknight" because some of the cards are named "stellarknight" and some are "satellarknight", so "tellarknight" is the common string in their names.
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Dec 25, 2014 02:27
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Ableist Kinkshamer posted:You have to set a stop for the declare blockers step or it will automatically pass priority when you would get it then. I understand not having a stop on every single step by default, but they do a poo poo job of communicating this quirk to new players. I have the defailt stops set up, and have cast after blockers before, but this game multiple times I didn't get the chance, including when it would have killed a morphed Ashcloud Phoenix, my last chance to interact with it.
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Dec 25, 2014 02:31
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Lottery of Babylon posted:My favorite was how all the "Frog" archetype support cards would specify "Except Frog the Jam". Frog the Jam was a very old, very weak vanilla with garbage stats that nobody would ever have any reason to use, but every single card in the archetype needed a clause specifically excluding it because its name didn't say "Frog" in the Japanese version and they couldn't think of any other solution. What are you talking about? Frog the Jam was loving a house.  He's loving ready the slam the... jam.
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Dec 25, 2014 02:34
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BizarroAzrael posted:I have the defailt stops set up, and have cast after blockers before, but this game multiple times I didn't get the chance, including when it would have killed a morphed Ashcloud Phoenix, my last chance to interact with it. The stops for your turn and your opponent's turn are separate, and there are separate settings for multiplayer games. Also, in the new client it's very easy to accidentally click the bar and change your stops without realizing it, something I've done multiple times. Just saying there are multiple issues with the interface that could be causing it.
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Dec 25, 2014 02:36
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Vital Signs posted:Magic: The Gathering: Megathread: Christmas Yugioh Edition It's just a cycle that occurs on occasion.
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Dec 25, 2014 03:04
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BizarroAzrael posted:Is constructed regarded as better value in MODO? I just can't see a way to make draft seem worthwhile, usually it's turn $12 of tickets into $2 of cards, then loose the first round because it doesn't think I should cast instants after blockers are declared. magicev.com is your friend. Constructed is much better than limited as long as you're willing to stick to a deck, but both are pretty poor at the moment. There's a cycle with MTGO where card/pack prices are really high when a set gets released and then continue to drop as time goes on, and we're currently in the lull until Fate Reforged hits.
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Dec 25, 2014 03:20
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Lottery of Babylon posted:Apparently one of the newer archetypes is always referred to as "tellarknight" because some of the cards are named "stellarknight" and some are "satellarknight", so "tellarknight" is the common string in their names. That's amazing.
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Dec 25, 2014 03:29
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Shaman Ooglaboogla posted:The most annoying MODO thing is that if you have no untapped creatures it skips blockers. But if they time a tapping effect at the right time of pre-combat, if you OK it it will skip declare attackers and your whole combat step even if you have something like a Magosi. I'm not sure which card you mean by Magosi. If you need to untap your creatures during the beginning of combat step, you probably need to set a stop there. If you enter declare attackers step, it's too late, because the first thing that happens in that step is you declare attackers.
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Dec 25, 2014 03:37
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Lottery of Babylon posted:My favorite was how all the "Frog" archetype support cards would specify "Except Frog the Jam". Frog the Jam was a very old, very weak vanilla with garbage stats that nobody would ever have any reason to use, but every single card in the archetype needed a clause specifically excluding it because its name didn't say "Frog" in the Japanese version and they couldn't think of any other solution. While looking this up, I found / remembered a very special thing about Yu-Gi-Oh: Rarities. Not content with any rarity system that makes sense, there are 23 distinct rarities in Yu-Gi-Oh, and some cards are printed at multiple rarities in the same set. You can find the full list here.
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Dec 25, 2014 03:42
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Lmao there is Ultra Secret Rare and then Secret Ultra Rare, christ
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Dec 25, 2014 04:03
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A Secret Ultra Rare foil has Secret Rare foil and a Ultra Rare name, but an Ultra Secret Rare is the other way around. God.
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Dec 25, 2014 04:07
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vOv posted:A Secret Ultra Rare foil has Secret Rare foil and a Ultra Rare name, but an Ultra Secret Rare is the other way around. God. And we had a shitfit when Alara block introduced Mythic Rares.
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Dec 25, 2014 04:21
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Despite being a game for schoolchildren Yugioh's rules are insanely hard to figure out. For all the poo poo Magic gets for having a 300-page comprehensive rulebook, Yugioh's rules are much, much harder to understand. The stack from Magic still exists in Yugioh, except they call it a "chain" and there are extra complications. Once things on the chain start resolving, nothing new can be added to the chain until the entire chain has finished resolving. Different effects have different "spell speeds", and each effect can only be used in response to other effects of certain speeds. Summoning a creature doesn't quite use the chain in the same way as everything else, if I remember correctly it can only be responded to with counters or something. Mandatory triggers are much stronger than optional triggers because for some reason optional triggers can't be used if anything at all happens between the triggering event and the chance to put the trigger on the chain. Thanks to the way Yugioh's chain works is pretty much all the time, but for equally unclear reasons the same isn't true of mandatory triggers.  This guy looks like he should be pretty useful: sacrifice him to summon a big monster, and draw an extra card. But it doesn't actually work, because between the frog being sacrificed and your chance to use the trigger, a creature came into play, and that means you can't use your trigger because it misses the timing. How the hell are school kids expected to figure this out based on the card text? Who knows. If it said "draw 1 card" instead of "you can draw 1 card", it would be extremely powerful; as written, it's useless. Here's another card that's hard to figure out:  That text in parentheses is printed on about half of all Aliens, seemingly at random. It's clearly reminder text explaining how A-Counters work, right? Except it's not - that's rules text, and it applies a number of times equal to the number of Aliens in play that have that effect. This is in a game where text in parentheses is usually reminder text, or at most clarification text. Cards receive functional errata frequently for power level reasons, to the point where their revised text often bears no relation to the original text. You'll just have to memorize whether your cards actually do what they say they do. Several cards say their name is always treated as [the name of another card], and the expectation is that you use all of those cards in the same deck so that they can benefit from various bonuses to cards of that name. That sounds okay in theory, except apparently "always" includes during deckbuilding, so you can't have more than a total of three of them in your deck because the game believes they're all the same card, so you end up not being able to do with them the one thing they're clearly designed to do. Yugioh doesn't have layers. It has some vague nebulous rules that are much worse. At least layers usually give you the outcome you expect; Yugioh's rules often give you the outcome you don't. If you use a spell to halve a creature's power until end of turn, then use another spell to give that creature +500 power, then after the end of the turn the creature will have 1000 more power than it started with. I couldn't tell you exactly how the rules reach that conclusion, but they do.
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Dec 25, 2014 04:36
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YuGiOh was bad because UDE didn't really care, just translated the Japanese cards and did minimal editing.
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Dec 25, 2014 05:01
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This is probably a horrible piece of garbage that is going to lose in round 1 but hey, I really, really wanted to try reanimator. Also, it was free!  Edit: Or my round 1 opponent can be the Mind's Desire deck, get all the ramp and none of the bombs. 
Count Bleck fucked around with this message at 05:29 on Dec 25, 2014 |
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Dec 25, 2014 05:07
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born on a buy you posted:YuGiOh was bad because UDE didn't really care, just translated the Japanese cards and did minimal editing. The rules all come from the japanese version, and the unreadable templating and names like "tellarknight" haven't stopped even after UDE was fired from Yugioh for running a counterfeiting operation.
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Dec 25, 2014 05:14
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Lottery of Babylon posted:UDE was fired from Yugioh for running a counterfeiting operation. Wait what. Link?
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Dec 25, 2014 05:17
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born on a buy you posted:YuGiOh was bad because UDE didn't really care, just translated the Japanese cards and did minimal editing. I played Yu-Gi-Oh as my initial card game as a kid and I was blown away after transitioning to Magic to learn that you were allowed to use cards that are in any language. I distinctly remember people saying in regards to YGO that yeah, the reason you can't have cards of a different language is because they literally do different things depending on what language they're written in. Edit: also, you wanna talk about rough translations there was also a very specific card name that made me go "ok, wait a second here" 
Gumdrop Larry fucked around with this message at 05:21 on Dec 25, 2014 |
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Dec 25, 2014 05:18
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There was also stuff like them completely loving up the translation for one card and making the English version incredibly powerful. I think it was a baboon that ate souls; it could only exile (using MTG terms here) creature cards for an attack boost originally, but the American translation changed this to any card type. This had no other cost and was loving bullshit as a result.
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Dec 25, 2014 05:20
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Elyv posted:Wait what. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Upper_Deck_Company#Konami That happened.
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Dec 25, 2014 05:36
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