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Frostwerks posted:I think I've heard in this very thread that even in its peak, the WRE outside of Rome proper was comparatively rural and that the east was more cosmopolitan. What were the big cities in the east anyways? Alexandria, Antioch, Tyre, Byzantium? Were those period names? A lot of cities that don`t really exist anymore. Sardis, Ephesus, Side, formerly dotted around the coast mostly. Inland, a lot of old, old, cities that still exist today, Jerusalem, Damascus, Sidon, Trebizond, Aleppo. All of Greece is a part of the East, as well as Egypt and Cyrenaica (Quite productive before the climate changed!). It might be easier to consider what the West had. There`s Rome itself, bits of Italy, the non-Carthage cities in North Africa, and maybe Marseilles and other Greek colonies.
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Dec 23, 2014 20:36
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London, York (Eboricum), Lutetia, Mediolanum, Naples, Ravenna, Lugdunum, Cologne, Trier, Syracuse Thessaloniki was huge. euphronius fucked around with this message at 20:42 on Dec 23, 2014 |
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Dec 23, 2014 20:40
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euphronius posted:All of the cities of greece and macedon, too, don't forget. And all of the cities of asia minor. And further north, you've got Sirmium and Naissus. Both were the birthplaces of a fuckton of emperors, including Constantine the Great.
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Dec 23, 2014 21:00
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Slim Jim Pickens posted:It might be easier to consider what the West had. There`s Rome itself, bits of Italy, the non-Carthage cities in North Africa, and maybe Marseilles and other Greek colonies. Plus Hispania, which was rather wealthy, even if a lot of that was driven by mineral extraction. There are loads of Roman sites in the Iberian peninsula, but I don't know which of them were particularly significant.
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Dec 23, 2014 23:41
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Yes, it's like a lava lamp.
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quote:We'll never know, of course. McGovern says the Romans preferred white wine, but according to inscriptions found on ancient bottles and casks, most wine from the Holy Land was, indeed, red. Is this true? Being a lush I consider this a staggeringly important part of history.
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Dec 26, 2014 07:02
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From Homer, we know that the Greeks preferred blue-green wine.
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Dec 26, 2014 07:21
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I was doing some research on Saturnalia for a blog and I learned that apparently Augustus liked giving out gag gifts to people. What type of gag gifts are we talking about because I doubt they had fake vomit back then.
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Dec 26, 2014 07:24
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achillesforever6 posted:I was doing some research on Saturnalia for a blog and I learned that apparently Augustus liked giving out gag gifts to people. What type of gag gifts are we talking about because I doubt they had fake vomit back then. Oh, Augustus and his wife Livia were totally into gags. An old favourite of theirs was to give figs out as presents, some of them poisoned, the others not. Of course, it all turned sour when Augustus died as the result of one of Livia's practical jokes. History has never forgiven her.
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Dec 26, 2014 07:49
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Tunicate posted:From Homer, we know that the Greeks preferred blue-green wine. Dawn with her rose-red fingers poured libations of the wine-dark sea.
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Dec 26, 2014 08:38
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Amused to Death posted:http://www.npr.org/blogs/thesalt/20...tm_content=2051 Just going off this quote:Jenna Nejame attended Catholic Catechism classes as a kid, but references to wine were typically avoided. "They don't really dwell on ... the drinking alcohol part," she says with a laugh. Catholics (even children) drink alcohol every Sunday as part of Mass so that's kind of a strange thing to say. Otherwise while it seems a little ham fisted (Jesus as a foodie) it is an interesting question as reconstructive archaeology what wine for the time was like.
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Dec 26, 2014 09:27
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Elagabalus is possibly the inventor of whoopie cushions. He's at least the first recorded user of them, as far as I know.
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Dec 26, 2014 11:31
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Tunicate posted:From Homer, we know that the Greeks preferred blue-green wine. There is a credible theory that Homer was in fact colourblind. I heard that Gladstone, who used to translate classical texts for a lark, first proposed that Homer might have issues processing colour normally, though people hadn't worked out what colourblindness was until some time later (than either person). Which would be his only real contribution to this field, dilettante as he was. Alternatively, I believe it is thought that Greeks thought about colour in extremely different ways. Forgive me if I'm being redundant. Disinterested fucked around with this message at 12:01 on Dec 26, 2014 |
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Dec 26, 2014 11:58
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Disinterested posted:Alternatively, I believe it is thought that Greeks thought about colour in extremely different ways. It's not unique to the ancient Greeks. There's a color called ao in Japanese which is either blue or green. Koreans have the same thing, and frequently draw the green light on a traffic signal as blue and don't see the issue with it. Here in China there's a color qing, which is green but also blue and maybe something in between? Nobody seems to be able to define it really.
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Dec 26, 2014 12:03
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It's also not hard to imagine the sea being a color at dawn/dusk that could be plausibly described as wine-like.    Doesn't always explain the uses referring to scenes probably during daytime, but.. still makes more sense than "all Ancient Greeks were colorblind and also weren't properly human because bicameral mind  "It's also entirely possible that he was referring more to the depth and clarity of the color (the saturation and luminance, for lack of a better term), rather than a specific hue. hailthefish fucked around with this message at 12:20 on Dec 26, 2014 |
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Dec 26, 2014 12:16
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Poetic license doesn't get enough credit. But it is just true that not every culture uses the same terms for colors as we do. It's entirely possible ancient Greek simply didn't have the language to distinguish those colors. English has that in its history--orange is a newish concept, it was just called red before the fruit was brought over from Asia and they adopted the name for the color as well. Orange is definitely not red to us but if you read something from like the 12th century, when they say red it could be red or orange.
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Dec 26, 2014 12:19
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I'm not disagreeing that it's entirely possible they mapped their color vocabulary a little differently, I'm just putting forward the alternative explanation of "he's a poet, not Wikipedia." 
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Dec 26, 2014 12:21
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Yep. Either is possible, or both! That's one of the problems with using works of fiction for this sort of thing. They are full of cultural insights, both intentional and not, but... they're fiction.
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Dec 26, 2014 12:23
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There are far fewer words for colors in Greek and Latin than in English. There's no doubt some poetic license in Homer -- he needed to have color descriptors that fit in hexameters -- but there is plenty of evidence otherwise (from not-poetry) that they used much broader categories for their colors. The bits with "wine-faced sea" are arguably some of the "older" phrases in Homer; Greek οἶνος (oinos, "wine") was originally ϝοῖνος (woinos, which looks a lot more like our "wine" and Latin vinum), and the meter still scans as if the word started with a consonant, suggesting that phrase had been handed down even after people stopped saying "w".
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Dec 26, 2014 14:36
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Just checking in, Dalael told me about this thread. I'm going to start reading from the beginning, see you in a couple of weeks. There's no quiz right?
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Dec 26, 2014 14:38
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Rocksicles posted:Just checking in, Dalael told me about this thread. I'm going to start reading from the beginning, see you in a couple of weeks. Of course there is, and it's on the impact of grue on the development of Mediterranean poetry.
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Dec 26, 2014 14:52
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Rocksicles posted:Just checking in, Dalael told me about this thread. I'm going to start reading from the beginning, see you in a couple of weeks. I've also started to read from the beginning and was completely overwhelmed by the sheer amount of information in this thread. I've had to take multiple breaks and eventually forgot where I was at.  I hope you enjoy this thread. The OP and plenty of other posters have put a lot of effort in this thread and it shows. 
Dalael fucked around with this message at 15:43 on Dec 26, 2014 |
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Dec 26, 2014 15:00
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Rocksicles posted:Just checking in, Dalael told me about this thread. I'm going to start reading from the beginning, see you in a couple of weeks. I'll only ask you one question, and the answer is a date, and something either did or did not happen then. So I guess it's sort of a two-part question.
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Dec 26, 2014 15:02
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So... no pressure then. I'm learning about Cuneiform, so that might push out other important stuff.
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Dec 26, 2014 15:58
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You may substitute your quiz for a massive effortpost about cuneiform
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Dec 26, 2014 16:04
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I've never written an essay before, so i might just write it in cuneiform for authenticity.
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Dec 26, 2014 16:56
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Rocksicles posted:Just checking in, Dalael told me about this thread. I'm going to start reading from the beginning, see you in a couple of weeks. The quiz will consist of one question "Please describe what happens to the man who buggers the fire"
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Dec 26, 2014 17:06
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Actually there are two questions, and the second one is "On which specific date did the Roman Empire fall?"
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Dec 26, 2014 17:09
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Oberleutnant posted:Actually there are two questions, and the second one is "On which specific date did the Roman Empire fall?"  Has anyone ever heard of Paul Chiasson's theory that Chinese explorers may have reached Cape Breton in Canada and made a colony? I wonder if there is anything in chinese history that could even hint at such an idea? I recently saw a documentary about this, and I am extremely far from being convinced. However, I do not like to discount anything on the basis that I find it far fetched. Also, anyone knows what is happening with Jim Allen's theories regarding ruins on the altiplano in Bolivia? Has there been any digs or any serious exploration of the area?
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Dec 26, 2014 17:17
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Dalael posted:Has anyone ever heard of Paul Chiasson's theory that Chinese explorers may have reached Cape Breton in Canada and made a colony? I wonder if there is anything in chinese history that could even hint at such an idea? I recently saw a documentary about this, and I am extremely far from being convinced. However, I do not like to discount anything on the basis that I find it far fetched. I have not heard of this, but it sounds absurdly far-fetched, beyond even the crap that Gavin Menzies likes to spew out.
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Dec 26, 2014 17:44
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I haven't heard of it but as soon as I looked up Cape Breton and found out it's on the east coast I know it's bullshit. I could believe in the slim possibility that Chinese ships reached the west coast but the east coast is absurd. There is no evidence whatsoever Chinese ships went to the New World. Hell China never managed to get to Europe for a bizarrely long time. China never had any real interest in exploration, as far as they were concerned there was nothing outside China worth exploring. Yes there are a exceptions to that. Not many.
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Dec 26, 2014 17:44
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Grand Fromage posted:Poetic license doesn't get enough credit. But it is just true that not every culture uses the same terms for colors as we do. It's entirely possible ancient Greek simply didn't have the language to distinguish those colors. English has that in its history--orange is a newish concept, it was just called red before the fruit was brought over from Asia and they adopted the name for the color as well. Orange is definitely not red to us but if you read something from like the 12th century, when they say red it could be red or orange. I'm pretty sure they said 'gold-red' (or whatever the middle/old english equivalent is), and not just red.
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Dec 26, 2014 17:48
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And the other thing mentioned is a theory that Bolivia is actually Atlantis. That seems... farfetched.
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Dec 26, 2014 17:53
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Apparently, it has been confirmed that Chinese explorers have reached and settled a colony somewhere in south africa... Paul Chiasson's theory is that they may have kept going further. From there, following the currents of the Atlantic Ocean, it would be quite possible that they may have ended up in Cape Breton. We know for sure that these currents exists. The idea that someone leaving south africa going west could be swept in those currents and end up in Canada is actually not that far fetched. I personally do not believe the chinese managed this feat tho. As far as I am aware, there is no lore in Canada regarding this. Don't get me wrong. I personally do not believe in this theory, but I find it kind of intriguing. Considering I know practically nothing about chinese history (ancient or modern), I have no idea what ancient China's knowledge of the world looked like. I figured I would bring this subject up and leave it up to debate.
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Dec 26, 2014 17:53
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The Chinese view of the world was that Earth was a flat square, with China in the middle. Outside China were the northern, southern, eastern, and western barbarians. Europeans were in the southern barbarians group. They maintained this at least through the Ming dynasty.
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Dec 26, 2014 17:57
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hailthefish posted:It's also not hard to imagine the sea being a color at dawn/dusk that could be plausibly described as wine-like. We did discuss this before, yes? I have read a bit about painting with natural pigments and in absence with far trade, you only have a limited range of colours. There's a huge range of brownish-reds, ocres etc, but other colours like blues are hard to get. (Think of azure blues that come from lapis). If there's no immediate reference for something new, people come up with all kinds of analogies that are rooted in their socio-cultural environment. We're pretty spoiled in terms of colours, e.g. the range that you can pick for your car, or your gf's nailpolish. Every nuance has some weird name, but you'd only know them if your job or hobby had to do with them. How would a guy rowing a galley describe the sunset? Or a smith the different colours that indicate a certain temperature in his workpiece?
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Dec 26, 2014 17:57
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sullat posted:And the other thing mentioned is a theory that Bolivia is actually Atlantis. That seems... farfetched. That one I do not believe so far fetched and would really like for real archeologist with an open mind to go and take a look at it. Was it Atlantis? I don't know. Was there a great civilization there a long time ago, I have no doubt. For those who have never heard of this, here's a site worth reading. Keep in mind I am very skeptical about these type of things, but after reading the entirety of that site, including all links provided in it, I am convinced there is more than meets the eyes. http://www.atlantisbolivia.org/atlantisboliviapart1.htm (Beware, the site itself looks cheap but it actually is an interesting read, even if it eventually turns out to be all bullshit) All links must be read for this to make any sense. Grab a cup of coffee, sit down and waste a few hours/days reading this. Dalael fucked around with this message at 18:01 on Dec 26, 2014 |
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Dec 26, 2014 17:58
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Dalael posted:Apparently, it has been confirmed that Chinese explorers have reached and settled a colony somewhere in south africa... Chinese fleets did sail over the Indian ocean to Africa in the 1400s. This is not disputed but neither is it unusual. Greek, Roman, and Muslim traders had been making that journey for over a millennium. Certainly the Chinese expedition was larger than normal, more of a diplomatic/military expedition than a trading mission. There are court records listing where the ships went, how much they cost, and why they were deemed an unnecessary expense and discontinued. There's no evidence to suggest they went any farther than east Africa.
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Dec 26, 2014 18:02
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On reading hour post, I immediately assumed it was some random nutjob. 10 minutes after googling Paul Chiasson, I'm convinced he's some random nutjob. The roads and walls he cites as evidence are 20th century access roads and fire brakes built by the Nova Scotian government or private companies. For a lot of this stuff the people who built the artifacts Chiasson claims as 15th century Chinese are still alive and living in the area. It's utterly banal 20th century forest management and resource exploration. The most recent "features" of the "site" were constructed 25 years ago. He also talks about finding piles or worked stone and charcoal. I could walk 100 feet from my door back in the north woods and find piles of "worked" rock and charcoal; those are both natural features in a forest on glaciated terrain. He knew there were two forest fires in that area in the last 100 years and yet he treats charcoal pits as evidence of habitation. He shouldn't be too stupid to realize that Nova Scotia is recently glaciated terrain and yet he treats piles of abraded and smoothed rock as evidence of habitation. Ditto for the fire brake "walls" and the road that was only 16 years old at the time he wrote the book. He's either too dumb to recognize roads and natural features or he's lying for money. Oh and there's also a giant glaring inconsistency: smallpox was endemic to China in the 15th century. A significant Chinese population on Nova Scotia should have coincided with a mass die-off in the North American population. But that didn't happen until the 16th century. Also, the Atlantic wasn't exactly empty at the time. You'd think the Portuguese and Spanish would have noticed very foreign ships (to a nautical eye a junk is instantly recognizable as a definitely-not-European ship from a dozen miles) wandering around the West African coast. In order to find America by accident you'd almost certainly have to start out in Africa... though how you'd end up in Nova Scotia is beyond me because the prevailing winds and currents should take you to the Caribbean, just like they actually did for Colombus when he actually discovered America by accident, actually starting from the African coast. This leaving aside the domestic political argument against the idea which others have already covered. edit2: this is actually funny now, he says the Chinese came to Nova Scotia for coal? China is very rich in coal. Arglebargle III fucked around with this message at 18:28 on Dec 26, 2014 |
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Dec 26, 2014 18:02
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Arglebargle III posted:On reading hour post, I immediately assumed it was some random nutjob. 10 minutes after googling Paul Chiasson, I'm convinced he's some random nutjob. The roads and walls he cites as evidence are 20th century access roads and fire brakes built by the Nova Scotian government or private companies. For a lot of this stuff the people who built the artifacts Chiasson claims as 15th century Chinese are still alive and living in the area. It's utterly banal 20th century forest management and resource exploration. The most recent "features" of the "site" were constructed 25 years ago. That is pretty much my line of thinking too. But then I remembered L'Anse aux Meadows and how the people who first said there was an old viking settlement there were also considered crazy. Dalael fucked around with this message at 18:10 on Dec 26, 2014 |
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Dec 26, 2014 18:08
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I found a book review reading Island of Seven Cities as a parody of Gavin Menzies. I guess we have all been had! In that note goodnight. Ave Sol Invictus, tribus Goonii! (pedicabo et irrumabo mater tuam menzies delenda est)
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Dec 26, 2014 18:27
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