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Senor Tron posted:I really think the part at the end with Old Clara was intended to be a send-off for her initially, then swapped around once she decided to stay. I actually think the young Clara ending wasn't in the original script at all. The Doctor and Clara were all the same number of dream "layers" deep as Shona and the others, right? They were sharing a dream, and every time they woke up, they woke up together. When they wake up after the sleigh ride, it's played as if they're now in the real world, it's finally over--but the Doctor and Clara still have to wake up one more time to accommodate the old Clara fakeout. So, did Shona and the others have one more layer, too? Are they still asleep and dying/dead? After all, the Doctor isn't there to point out that they're still dreaming this time. I'm sure that's not the intent behind it at all, but it was one of the first things I thought of when they pulled the "you're still dreaming" twist at the very end.
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Dec 26, 2014 05:02
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| # ? Jun 1, 2024 12:08 |
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I really enjoyed this episode. After as intensely as I disliked the series finale with Missy and the Cybermen, I had low expectations. I never imagined it would be the second best Christmas special of 'new Who.' I also really, really wanted Clara to go away by midseason, especially with the Danny sidebar that I wasn't enjoying. The only thing I enjoyed about the series finale was that I liked how Clara progressed in that ep, and with this special, I'm a little happy now that she's coming back. Also, maybe I missed totally missed it but was the tangerine a call back to something?
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Dec 26, 2014 05:02
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Doronin posted:Also, maybe I missed totally missed it but was the tangerine a call back to something? Tangerines used to be common stocking stuffers, because their peak season is in December. EDIT: Or, if you mean the one on the windowsill at the end, I think it's meant to suggest the whole "is Santa real after all? Did he bring the Doctor and Clara back together?" Harrow fucked around with this message at 05:13 on Dec 26, 2014 |
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Dec 26, 2014 05:06
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Senor Tron posted:The dreams try to make you happy, to want to stay in them. What then is the logic of having Clara be old, close to death and apparently having lived her life alone? They could impact the dream state, which is how they all escaped in the first place. The out they had was the ideals they made were perfect ideals of what they imagined those people to be. So of course her Dream Danny tries to save her. How couldn't he? Danny would have done anything for Clara. And of course Santa comes to save them on Christmas, whatever you think of the holiday he is a personification of hope and justice [All the good kids will be rewarded, all the bad kids will not, and he always knows]. That's what he'd do. In the end, "Santa" gave them a little parting gift. Had they just woken up they probably would have stayed parted. By forcing them to acknowledge how lonely they are and how much they've missed each other, they can say screw it and run off again. Which, of course, is what they both wanted. Which is why their linked sub-conscious made that little vignette in the first place. Telepathic contact is the greatest excuse for getting past obfuscating bullshit. As for how it might have been charted to end in the first place, who knows? I don't find it surprising she's staying on for at least a bit longer. I remember people saying they cast an older Doctor to cut down on the flirty chemistry between companions, and then watching the first few episodes with Capaldi and Coleman and going "Well that failed miserably". Those two just work together, it'd be nice to give them some time to bounce around before sending her off to inevitable horrific end.
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Dec 26, 2014 05:08
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The old Clara bit wouldn't necessarily imply everyone else had another layer too - dream worlds aren't real so you could just have two people falsely hallucinate waking up while the others genuinely awaken. The idea that one of his companions could go on to lead a normal and fulfilling life after parting from him actually makes sense as a comfort dream for The Doctor too.
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Dec 26, 2014 05:27
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Doctor is really  Am I still old?  I dunno, you tell me. (hands mirror)
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Dec 26, 2014 05:35
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There was a neat callback in there - the Doctor helping Old Clara with the Christmas crackers because she hadn't the strength to pull her end was exactly what Clara did with Old Eleven in the previous Christmas special 
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Dec 26, 2014 05:41
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AndyElusive posted:From everything I've read, Twelve is still really defining who he actually is. This. Yeah, Twelve can be a GIGANTIC rear end in a top hat, but arguing that he's lost fifty years of character development is a bit much. Remember his circumstances; he spent centuries in one spot endlessly fighting his legions of enemies, knowing it was going to end in his final, absolute death (all of the Doctor's other deaths were either stuff that happened in the course of dangerous adventuring or vague on how death was going to come, ie 'he will knock four times': I think this was the first time he knew it was coming, ever so slowly.), and then at the last minute he got a new regeneration cycle, which is apparently pretty drat rare ("We're breaking some serious science here boys!"). On top of that, a new cycle's apparently one hell of a bear: Ten slept through the majority of his regeneration issues, Eleven ate fish fingers and custard, Twelve was acting literally nucking futs up until he ended up in that fake restaurant. It's understandable if after all that he's tending towards being a dismissive rear end in a top hat: something like that would probably make ANYONE immensely cranky for a while. Now, if he spends his WHOLE run as the Doctor doing it, THEN we have a problem, but I think that just like One he's climbing out of that pit, slowly but surely. Nine also had more than a few rear end in a top hat traits when he first showed up, let's not forget.
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Dec 26, 2014 05:49
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Solaris Knight posted:How did two separate Santas both think about Festival TWAAAAAANNNNNNNNGGGGGG! Loved the Christmas special. One of my favorites of the past season. The callbacks to Clara and Old 11 were great, Santa was as good as Robin Hood, and there were some great moments of humor ("Am I old?" "No idea.")
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Dec 26, 2014 05:55
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I liked it! Santa was the role Nick Frost was born to play.
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Dec 26, 2014 05:59
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It's worth pointing out that the Doctor isn't intentionally being a jerk. There have been a few scenes this series where he clearly thinks he is acting the same way he always has, and is trying to be helpful, and is obviously confused as to why people are annoyed with him.
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Dec 26, 2014 06:14
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Shite, complete shite. Even for a Christmas episode it was shite.
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Dec 26, 2014 06:14
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Senor Tron posted:It's worth pointing out that the Doctor isn't intentionally being a jerk. There have been a few scenes this series where he clearly thinks he is acting the same way he always has, and is trying to be helpful, and is obviously confused as to why people are annoyed with him.
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Dec 26, 2014 06:18
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Senor Tron posted:It's worth pointing out that the Doctor isn't intentionally being a jerk. There have been a few scenes this series where he clearly thinks he is acting the same way he always has, and is trying to be helpful, and is obviously confused as to why people are annoyed with him. Same dialog, different voice, and the Doctor can't quite register how that delivery is what's making it not work this time. I believe it. I liked this Christmas special, it wasn't overly precious with its plotting and I was legitimately happy to see we're getting a new season of Twelve/Clara, since they work so wonderfully well together.
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Dec 26, 2014 06:20
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adhuin posted:Oh no! It is happening! Its just "YEAH! CHOCOLATE!" A common Christmas phrase.
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Dec 26, 2014 06:49
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Rocksicles posted:Shite, complete shite. Got any actual criticisms?
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Dec 26, 2014 07:29
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Is there a Doctor Who episode set on a beach? Because today I've watched "The Ice Warriors"* and "Last Christmas" and I would love something set somewhere a little warmer. * - Received for Christmas, loved the little factoid track that pointed out little things, like one of the scientists is Wallace from "Wallace and Gromit."
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Dec 26, 2014 07:31
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"There's a horror movie called Alien? That's really offensive, no wonder everyone keeps invading you!"
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Dec 26, 2014 07:32
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Had to look up the cast on IMDB since the actress who played Shona reminded me of Jane Horrocks but turned out to be Faye Marsay. Turns out that the one scientist is a son of Patrick Troughton, which I'd completely missed! Also, loved that Santa kept drinking from what I assume was the same blue mug that the Doctor stole in "Listen." Because dreams are like that, too.
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Dec 26, 2014 07:39
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Jet Jaguar posted:Is there a Doctor Who episode set on a beach? Because today I've watched "The Ice Warriors"* and "Last Christmas" and I would love something set somewhere a little warmer. Planet of the Dead 
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Dec 26, 2014 07:40
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Senor Tron posted:It's worth pointing out that the Doctor isn't intentionally being a jerk. There have been a few scenes this series where he clearly thinks he is acting the same way he always has, and is trying to be helpful, and is obviously confused as to why people are annoyed with him. I think that on the face of it, Twelve would really like to just be "the one who stops the monsters" and let other people handle all the tedious Emotions business. He still understands the niceties of pain and sympathy and loss on an intellectual level, but it takes him a while to catch up and he doesn't like to waste that kind of time, which gets him into trouble occasionally. The only good part of Kill the Moon was the blowout between him and Clara, and the best part of that was Twelve gradually going from faintly smug praise of humans, to confusion at Clara's reaction, to "oh, I really hosed this one up." By the time he actually twigs to Clara's feelings, it's way too late to undo the damage he's caused.
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Dec 26, 2014 07:42
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Jet Jaguar posted:Is there a Doctor Who episode set on a beach? Because today I've watched "The Ice Warriors"* and "Last Christmas" and I would love something set somewhere a little warmer. Midnight is at a resort.
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Dec 26, 2014 07:43
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jivjov posted:Got any actual criticisms? It was boring, the story was retarded, no one was particularly good in it. Nick Frost was wasted. I'm not writing as essay on something i'd sooner forget.
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Dec 26, 2014 07:43
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ewe2 posted:"There's a horror movie called Alien? That's really offensive, no wonder everyone keeps invading you!" Best line. I did love all the movie references, and the to do list at the end that showed why they were all there (because apparently Dave was a now forgiven rear end in a top hat!). Though she really was watching the wrong version of The thing and also no videodrome on the list -but I can sort of understand why they might not want to include that one on a movie list on a family show- but other then that great. I also liked that no matter how many layers of dreams they had woken up from, the first thing they did was never check wither they were still in a dream or not. It was sort of adorably stupid. Which I think sort of sums up the episode quite well. Nick Frost was of course awesome.
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Dec 26, 2014 07:58
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ewe2 posted:"There's a horror movie called Alien? That's really offensive, no wonder everyone keeps invading you!" gently caress, I wish John Hurt had gotten a few more appearances between there and here. Could you imagine how that joke would have played if it was the War Doctor on the receiving end instead of Twelve?
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Dec 26, 2014 08:16
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computer parts posted:Midnight is at a resort. And you'd get one hell of a tan.
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Dec 26, 2014 08:49
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Jet Jaguar posted:Is there a Doctor Who episode set on a beach? Because today I've watched "The Ice Warriors"* and "Last Christmas" and I would love something set somewhere a little warmer. Keys of marinus
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Dec 26, 2014 08:54
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... and another thing... gently caress Slade. Fire whoever's idea that was.
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Dec 26, 2014 09:00
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Given how Clara reacted when the Doctor turned up on the roof, I wonder how long it's been. She reacted like it had been ages.
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Dec 26, 2014 09:32
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The way this episode was going, I half expected it to end with Paul McGann watching a headcrab die.
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Dec 26, 2014 09:52
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Rocksicles posted:... and another thing... gently caress Slade. Fire whoever's idea that was. What I couldn't get over is how bad the ADR was there. Rumour is that it was originally I Wish it Could be Christmas Every Day but they recut it and dubbed in new audio after Black Mirror. Not sure if there's any truth to that but I could see it being true.
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Dec 26, 2014 10:28
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Jet Jaguar posted:Is there a Doctor Who episode set on a beach? Because today I've watched "The Ice Warriors"* and "Last Christmas" and I would love something set somewhere a little warmer. The Enemy Of The World starts on an Australian beach.
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Dec 26, 2014 10:50
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So.... Do they both have brain damage now? How long were those things liquifying their brains before they woke up?
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Dec 26, 2014 11:02
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I liked this one. All things considered it's a pretty simple well idea that was well-developed throughout the episode, Santa was handled well (Nick Frost and the actors who did the elves did a fairly good job), and the ending for once didn't feel like a cop out. Not totally sold on some of the emotional beats, but overall this was a good Christmas special.
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Dec 26, 2014 11:33
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New Christmas episode was fab.Jet Jaguar posted:Is there a Doctor Who episode set on a beach? Because today I've watched "The Ice Warriors"* and "Last Christmas" and I would love something set somewhere a little warmer. Not a beach, but you could enjoy the sunny Spanish surrounds of The Two Doctors 
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Dec 26, 2014 11:43
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Rocksicles posted:It was boring, the story was retarded, no one was particularly good in it. Nick Frost was wasted. Counterpoint: It was interesting, the story was mentally functional, everyone was nonspecifically bad in it. Simon Pegg was sober. I am reading an speech on everything I'd later remember.
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Dec 26, 2014 11:44
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TheKeeper posted:So.... Do they both have brain damage now? How long were those things liquifying their brains before they woke up? Doesn't matter. Nobody had a head wound when they "really" woke up. So it's all still another level of dreaming. Maybe the series script editor should've told the writer they'd not be doing even that small level of gore in an xmas special and removed the lines about head wounds when they first woke up.
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Dec 26, 2014 11:46
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So what petition do I need to sign to get Shona as a companion?
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Dec 26, 2014 11:50
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I used to be pretty sure that you could estimate the quality of a Christmas episode from its initial pitch. Voyage of the Damned sounded like a terrible idea, and it was. Doctor Who doing a Christmas Carol on the other hand was a pretty neat idea, and actually rode it out fairly well. For whatever reason, Christmas specials never seem to rise above the initial idea. I'm going to retire this line of logic, because despite the utter stupidity of an episode about Santa, this one was actually really really good. It had a bunch of really good ideas, it actually included the Christmas parts of things fairly well, and I'm having one of those moments where I'm realizing that it was actually being more clever than I thought. Thinking about it, there's actually a lot of logic behind Dave actually being a dream construct of Shop Girl Whose Name I Forgot. The only mentioned interaction between the four on the 'base' before the Doctor and Clara turn up is between those two. He's the only one being impolite to the Doctor as they explain what's going on, because she thinks he's kind of an rear end in a top hat. He brings up Alien because she's been watching it. And he dies first not just because she's not keen on the guy, but because she's big on horror movies and that was exactly the time where someone had to die. I'd talk more abut this, but I've got this little ice cream headache on the side of my head, so I'm gonna go dig out some painkillers.
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Dec 26, 2014 11:56
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| # ? Jun 1, 2024 12:08 |
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That was really enjoyable. I liked that "dreamy weamy" callback.
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Dec 26, 2014 11:58
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