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Dalael posted:"Rationalhub"  Look, your hypothesis clearly starts from the end ("there was a "real Atlantis"), that idea is broad enough to support anything ("there was a civilisation that was destroyed by a natural disaster, which may have become a myth if anyone besides Plato used it"), and you go for an extremely unlikely explanation possible ("there was a civilisation in South America that the ancient Greeks/Plato knew about, and was the basis for the myth of Atlantis"). The thing is, there is literally no point to finding out a "real Atlantis". According to Plato, it was an imperial Atlantic-Mediterranean state that battled Athens. That's Atlantis. Anything else is just stretching the idea until it becomes unrecognisable. That's how it became the archetypical lost civilisation, which means there cannot be a "real Atlantis". It's a story archetype. Your hypothesis is that there was a civilisation in South America that made contact with the Mediterranean peoples and was destroyed, but that doesn't really have anything to do with Atlantis except the vague outlines of the story. You should look into the concept of falsifiability. e: The really interesting part is cross-Atlantic contacts, yes, but there is no way to prove if that inspired Platon's hypotethical Atlantis. In fact, I don't see why Atlantis needs to be brought into this at all, except to provide a sheen of mythic glamour to a grant application. BravestOfTheLamps fucked around with this message at 11:15 on Dec 27, 2014 |
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Dec 27, 2014 10:46
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Dalael, what do you think of the widely-accepted theory that the Garden of Eden was in Missouri?
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Dec 27, 2014 10:54
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Hey, hey guys. There's a movie coming out. It's based on a completely unhistorical non-event. Rome vs China. http://io9.com/its-hard-to-believe-this-ancient-rome-vs-china-movie-1675376897 I just think they could have done a more interesting film with Justinian's secret expedition to Asia to smuggle out silk worms but whatever.
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Dec 27, 2014 11:16
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Octy posted:Hey, hey guys. There's a movie coming out. It's based on a completely unhistorical non-event. Rome vs China. At least they're coming out and saying it's non-historical. Anyway, this Bolivian Atlantis thing strikes me as colonialist and racist: apparently the reason why we should care about an extinct non-Western civilisation is because of how it relates to a Western myth. "Gee whiz, we sure would like to study these archeological sites on their own merits, but first we need to see if the ancients gave a piss about them. No? Then why the gently caress should we care about these brown people?" Atlantis was literally used to describe the inferiority of "barbarians", I don't think the people looking for it have the best intentions. BravestOfTheLamps fucked around with this message at 11:26 on Dec 27, 2014 |
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Dec 27, 2014 11:24
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Berke Negri posted:So if this evidence points towards ancient Bolivians coming from across the sea to what would become Arhens , what chances are there that this links up with the Sea Peoples causing the Bronze Age collapse? Bolivians... Barbarians. poo poo, this theory is coming together.
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Dec 27, 2014 11:26
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Yes, it's like a lava lamp.
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Can you guys please stop piling on the poor sod? It's what the Athenians would do.
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Dec 27, 2014 11:30
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Alright, let's each scratch the name of a poster in this thread on a broken piece of pottery and whoever has the most gets banished   
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Dec 27, 2014 11:51
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echopapa posted:Dalael, what do you think of the widely-accepted theory that the Garden of Eden was in Missouri? I was waiting patiently for this comparison to arrive. Thank you.
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Dec 27, 2014 11:54
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hailthefish posted:Alright, let's each scratch the name of a poster in this thread on a broken piece of pottery and whoever has the most gets banished Oh, that's his name. I wanted to make a comparison with Agesilaus but I couldn't quite remember him.
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Dec 27, 2014 11:58
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My choice: Kleon. Kleon all the way. e: Not a poster, but this guy deserves it. Power Khan fucked around with this message at 12:12 on Dec 27, 2014 |
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Dec 27, 2014 12:09
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Thucydides. Possibly for slandering Kleon, the sour old aristocrat.
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Dec 27, 2014 12:20
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Octy posted:Hey, hey guys. There's a movie coming out. It's based on a completely unhistorical non-event. Rome vs China. Is that anything close to Roman armour and battledress? If so, what era?
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Dec 27, 2014 12:45
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Comstar posted:Is that anything close to Roman armour and battledress? If so, what era? Not even remotely. Looks like
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Dec 27, 2014 12:58
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Comstar posted:Is that anything close to Roman armour and battledress? If so, what era? Remember that scene in Rome, when they show of that street theater where the actor strolls around with the giant fake cock out? What this guy wore was more authentic than this. Or picture a movie about knights and the main protagonist wears a bucket instead of a helmet.
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Dec 27, 2014 13:01
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I think what you're seeing is what Chinese people think Romans looked like. Which figures, because their armour is some weird Ancient Greek / Chinese hybrid.
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Dec 27, 2014 13:16
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This film was a pretty fun Rome-meets-China scenario. Instead of fighting the two empires just go "hey let's ally and rule everything forever". Edit: Also the Malaysian origin myth is awesome. A Hindu prince (descended from Alexander the Great!) living in Rome sails to China to do some trade, but he gets shipwrecked so he founds a kingdom instead.
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Dec 27, 2014 13:21
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Why did the Romans get lazy naming months halfway through? I know January and February were added later, and July and August were renamed later, but March-June were named after gods and festivals while September-December (and originally July and August) are just "month 7, month 8, etc." Do we have any idea why they only gave special names to the ones they did?
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Dec 27, 2014 16:45
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JaucheCharly posted:Remember that scene in Rome, when they show of that street theater where the actor strolls around with the giant fake cock out? What this guy wore was more authentic than this. Or picture a movie about knights and the main protagonist wears a bucket instead of a helmet. That's really a cool moment in the series. Romans had "stock" characters for their theater, the way we have the "zany best friend" or "future frumpy 30 year old spinster" in our sitcoms. That character in particular is a "miles gloriosus", a "most glorious soldier", a Roman stock character which represented a returning legionary. This is nerd relevant because in Morrowind, the master sword trainer is a legionary named Miles Gloriosus. 
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Dec 27, 2014 17:12
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I see your videogame reference and raise you a broadway musical.
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Dec 27, 2014 17:27
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physeter posted:That character in particular is a "miles gloriosus", a "most glorious soldier", a Roman stock character which represented a returning legionary. Well, or 'boastful soldier'...
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Dec 27, 2014 18:45
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Dalael posted:Actually no. No other button has been pushed. No it is not a possibility that must be considered. Plato exclusively refers to fictional and fictionalized characters as knowing of Atlantis in his fictional story. He never once says that he actually knew anyone who knew about Atlantis. Read the drat dialogues for once! What you're doing is the equivalent of reading the Lord Of The Rings and decding that since Tolkein wrote extensive backstory and had characters refer to it, deciding that Middle Earth was real and then going to find places that kind of match some chunks of Middle Earth as proof.
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Dec 27, 2014 18:57
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Nintendo Kid posted:What you're doing is the equivalent of reading the Lord Of The Rings and decding that since Tolkein wrote extensive backstory and had characters refer to it, deciding that Middle Earth was real and then going to find places that kind of match some chunks of Middle Earth as proof. Well, technically, the entirety of Earth is supposed to be post magic-leaves-the-world Middle Earth. I just "Well, technically"-d fishmech. Welp. Help.
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Dec 27, 2014 19:05
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SlothfulCobra posted:I see your videogame reference and raise you a broadway musical. Wasn't that based on an actual Roman comedy? It's always interesting when those things can translate across two thousand years.
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Dec 27, 2014 19:07
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my dad posted:Well, technically, the entirety of Earth is supposed to be post magic-leaves-the-world Middle Earth. Guys, I think I figured it out. Numenor is Atlantis! Which matches this place called "England" perfectly! Therefore England is Atlantis.
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Dec 27, 2014 19:18
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Ancient Minoan civilization actually a staggeringly close match for Sonic the hedgehog's Green Hill Zone.
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Dec 27, 2014 19:35
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BurningStone posted:Wasn't that based on an actual Roman comedy? It's always interesting when those things can translate across two thousand years. Reminds me of that episode of QI where everyone was baffled by the "oldest recorded joke" because they translated it wrong. It was a joke about farting during sex. Vincent Van Goatse fucked around with this message at 20:24 on Dec 27, 2014 |
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Dec 27, 2014 20:21
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Jokes about making GBS threads yourself or stepping in said material are the only things that are considered universally funny. Hence, we can enjoy the pompeii grafitis or jokes about farting while having sex without much effort.
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Dec 27, 2014 20:57
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Testikles posted:Very interesting First and foremost, thanks for the comprehensive reply. In order to not poo poo up this thread any longer with this subject, I will not make a long reply. When I brought up Jim Allen's theory, I left out some very important detail regarding his theory (in hindsight I should have included). Long story short, Jim Allen believes plato did accurately describe the south american continent (Seriously, the way his description matches the place is uncanny and unreal, and the description of the people and plenty other things also does) But he does not believe that they invaded europe or some poo poo like that. He believes that Plato would have used the South American continent as a location for his story, used some other war to make up his point... I don't want to go in too much details here and will do so in the thread I plan to create. However, I will include links to his 3 academic papers downloadable in pdf for anyone interested. They are not such a long read, are interesting and even if you put the Atlantis idea aside are definitely worth a read considering the very real possibility of a civilization having been there. (There are ruins that have yet to be excavated) First paper: http://www.atlantisbolivia.org/athensfullpaper.pdf 2nd Paper: http://www.atlantisbolivia.org/athensfullpaper2.pdf 3rd Paper: http://www.atlantisbolivia.org/athensfullpaper3.pdf Those were first presented in 2008 at the 2nd International Atlantis Conference in Athens.
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Dec 27, 2014 20:58
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Dalael posted:Long story short, Jim Allen believes plato did accurately describe the south american continent Long story short, Jim Allen must have no idea what the South American continent looks like, or has never ever read either of Plato's dialogues concerning Atlantis.
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Dec 27, 2014 21:03
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Dalael posted:(Seriously, the way his description matches the place is uncanny and unreal, and the description of the people and plenty other things also does) You know, you keep saying this, and you keep pressing Jim Allen. I'm going to make a suggestion: Do some INDEPENDENT research on both the place Jim Allen describes, and Plato's original text. Don't use anything sourced by Jim Allen for now, look up tour books or whatever to examine the description of the place and its notable features. Go really in-depth. Start listing not only similarities with Plato's account, but DISSIMILARITIES as well - things that Plato mentions that the place doesn't have, and notable things that the place has that Plato doesn't have. Come back with a full list of that stuff, and THEN we can talk about "uncanny matching." No archeological work required, mind, I'm only asking that you look for public access information about the place. It's really easy to make something sound eerily similar to something else if you ONLY focus on the things that are similar and ignore the things that aren't. Suppose I were to say, for example, that Bill Clinton is secretly George Bush, because they're 1) Both white 2) Both male 3) Both wear suits often 4) Both have greying hair 5) Both work in politics 6) Both in fact have been Presidents of the United States before 7) Both are married 8) Both are Christian 9) Both have been on public television before 10) Both have been to England at one point And so on. I could go on and on and bring up a list of a hundred similarities, and it won't matter for poo poo because there's a hell of a lot more dissimilarities and they're not actually anywhere near the same. But if I gave that list to someone who has never seen or heard of either Bill Clinton or George Bush, it would look like I have a huge list of meticulously researched data points proving the similarities between them and the fact that they are in fact the same person. And for God's sake find a source other than Jim Allen. You NEVER rely on just one source if you can avoid it. Tomn fucked around with this message at 21:22 on Dec 27, 2014 |
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Dec 27, 2014 21:14
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Dalael posted:However, I will include links to his 3 academic papers downloadable in pdf for anyone interested. They are not such a long read, are interesting and even if you put the Atlantis idea aside are definitely worth a read considering the very real possibility of a civilization having been there. (There are ruins that have yet to be excavated) These are not academic papers, they are pseudo-academic nonsense. The "2nd International Atlantis Conference", of which little record on the internet exists besides vague mentions of various theories of where Atlantis was (including Greenland), was obviously a gathering of fools, blitherers, frauds, and whackjobs.
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Dec 27, 2014 21:17
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Nintendo Kid posted:Long story short, Jim Allen must have no idea what the South American continent looks like, or has never ever read either of Plato's dialogues concerning Atlantis. Or just maybe, he has read them extensively while you have done so just once in your life? maybe twice? Maybe not even once? And just maybe, the guy worked as an expert in satellite mapping with the British Royal Air Force and is a researcher of ancient measuring systems. Or we could also consider other facts such as him going multiple times in South America, at least 5 on the Altiplano in order to verify the location. We are not talking about a guy who pulled something out of his rear end, made a website and then collected money. We are talking about someone who combined two line of works and a hobby, put his own money where his mouth is and has done serious enough work regarding a subject that plenty of people don't believe in. It may not be Atlantis. but there ARE ruins over there. There IS an extensive network or ancient canels that dwarf the ones in Cambodia, and a long time ago, the water level was high enough for those cannels to be filled. We are talking about an area that is huge. But no one has yet done any serious digs over there yet because of lack of money and possibly  EDIT: Jim Allen is himself no archeologist. He made a theory, showed his evidence and is now hoping that serious archeologist/academics will one day go on site and find out exactly what is there. Edit2: ALL-PRO SEXMAN posted:These are not academic papers, they are pseudo-academic nonsense. The "2nd International Atlantis Conference", of which little record on the internet exists besides vague mentions of various theories of where Atlantis was (including Greenland), was obviously a gathering of fools, blitherers, frauds, and whackjobs. If you don't read the papers, you are not arguing in good faith especially if you only take the little I have wrote here as basis to argue against. Its easy to call something non sense if you have not read it and only assume what is in it. Dalael fucked around with this message at 21:26 on Dec 27, 2014 |
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Dec 27, 2014 21:18
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Dalael posted:Or just maybe, he has read them extensively while you have done so just once in your life? maybe twice? Maybe not even once? He clearly hasn't read them extensively if he thinks a a random plain in the middle of South America matches Atlantis because a few points on it kinda line up, moron. Plato's characters go into great detail about the fictional location, including it explicitly being its own landmass in the ocean. Dalael posted:
There is no "may not be Atalntis". It is 100% not Atlantis because Atlantis was a fictional location in a fictional work. That there is ruins means literally nothing. He'd come offa lot less crackpot if he didn't feel the need to jam in "also it's Atlantis" into his treatise on how "this site might have been cool once".
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Dec 27, 2014 21:26
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Dalael posted:We are not talking about a guy who pulled something out of his rear end, made a website and then collected money. We are talking about someone who combined two line of works and a hobby, put his own money where his mouth is and has done serious enough work regarding a subject that plenty of people don't believe in. Actually, there are have been lots of eccentric cranks over the years who have squandered fortunes in pursuit of absurd ideas. Add Jim Allen to the pile. You don't seem to realize that the time scale involved (9200 years before Plato, or about 12,000 years ago) puts it right to the edge of the earliest recorded human habitations in South America, coexistent with the Clovis culture. You are studiously ignoring all the absurdities of this whole scheme just because Jim Allen has tickled some emotional itch in you. It makes no sense whatsoever and you make yourself sound like a fool in expounding it.
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Dec 27, 2014 21:27
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Dalael posted:If you don't read the papers, you are not arguing in good faith especially if you only take the little I have wrote here as basis to argue against. Its easy to call something non sense if you have not read it and only assume what is in it. They are not peer reviewed and have zero academic value. Edit: that is not to say there aren't a bunch of unexcavated ruins down there we should check out, but Allen's lack of credentials and peer-reviewed publications on the matter means you are taking him (and only him) purely at his word. They are not academic papers, full stop. Pellisworth fucked around with this message at 21:32 on Dec 27, 2014 |
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Dec 27, 2014 21:30
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Dalael posted:If you don't read the papers, you are not arguing in good faith especially if you only take the little I have wrote here as basis to argue against. Its easy to call something non sense if you have not read it and only assume what is in it. I have read his website. It is drivel that contradicts every well-established archeological and paleo-anthropological fact about the Ancient Americas. They laughed at Galileo and Goddard and the Wright Brothers, but they also laughed at Bozo the Clown. Vincent Van Goatse fucked around with this message at 21:32 on Dec 27, 2014 |
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Dec 27, 2014 21:30
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Dude you're loving retarded
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Dec 27, 2014 21:31
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Nintendo Kid posted:He clearly hasn't read them extensively if he thinks a a random plain in the middle of South America matches Atlantis because a few points on it kinda line up, moron. Plato's characters go into great detail about the fictional location, including it explicitly being its own landmass in the ocean. The first part of your post, clearly shows you have never read (or have not understood) the text Critias by Plato. Plato describes the Capital city as being on an island, which itself was located in a rectangular plain surrounded by mountains high above the level of the sea. The plain was crisscrossed by cannels. He also describe how Atlantis was bigger than Asia and Libya together and was formed of 10 kingdoms. Seriously, I don't know why I bother arguing with you since you probably haven't even bothered to read Plato's work and will definitely not bother to read Jim Allen's papers.
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Dec 27, 2014 21:35
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I believe there's a lot of undiscovered archeological sites in South America, and probably some undiscovered civilizations too, if Charles Mann's splendid book 1491 is any indication. Jim Allen has conflated a lot of that legitimate research into a bunch of nonsense derived from misreading Plato because he's a hobbyist with a crazy theory.
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Dec 27, 2014 21:36
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Dalael posted:The first part of your post, clearly shows you have never read (or have not understood) the text Critias by Plato. Yes I have. None of that matches with some random plateau in South America plus Literally All Of The Rest of South America. I don't know why you bother arguing with anyone when you are as deluded as the dude whose work you worship. Atlantis factually didn't exist, Plato never even claimed so.
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Dec 27, 2014 21:37
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