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Anne Whateley posted:I'm betting it's a tomato knife. Yeah, if you don't already have a normal paring knife, go for that instead. Yeah I was thinking tomatoes and maybe other fruit/vegetable? A little too specific for me at least.
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Dec 29, 2014 04:10
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I did a very quick look through the thread, and didn't see a lot of love for ceramic knives. I have a single ceramic chef's knife that I use exclusively for fruits and vegetables, and I love it. It wasn't anything fancy, i think under $50 at bed bath and beyond but it is very nice knowing that I can pull it out of the drawer and it'll be sharp enough to effortlessly chop anything i put under it. I have never sharpened or honed the edge in the roughly 5 years that I have had it and it still goes right through a tomato, which has historically been my yardstick for when to hone my blade. I still keep a nice steel chef's knife handy for any meat products I have to cut. 1) I worry that washing my ceramic knife may damage it, not only from the lateral pressure on the blade but also from the temperature changes from hot to cold, but 2) I also worry that it will break if I hit a bone. Knowing those drawbacks, I heartily recommend a ceramic knife for everyone. It really is a great investment.
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Dec 29, 2014 04:46
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adorai posted:I did a very quick look through the thread, and didn't see a lot of love for ceramic knives. I have a single ceramic chef's knife that I use exclusively for fruits and vegetables, and I love it. It wasn't anything fancy, i think under $50 at bed bath and beyond but it is very nice knowing that I can pull it out of the drawer and it'll be sharp enough to effortlessly chop anything i put under it. I have never sharpened or honed the edge in the roughly 5 years that I have had it and it still goes right through a tomato, which has historically been my yardstick for when to hone my blade. I prefer the japanese steel knives because I can get them just as sharp and I only have to sharpen them once every two weeks to a month. I can also use them on most ingredients without worrying about lateral pressure nearly as much as I would with a ceramic knife. If you are willing to deal with the drawbacks I can see a ceramic being worth it, it's just not for me. BTW if you mean putting your ceramic knife in a dishwasher when you say "washing" then you shouldn't do that with any knife, a dishwasher will really damage handles and dull the hell out of the knife. I just use a sponge, warm water and some soap on my knives.
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Dec 29, 2014 05:14
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AVeryLargeRadish posted:BTW if you mean putting your ceramic knife in a dishwasher when you say "washing" then you shouldn't do that with any knife, a dishwasher will really damage handles and dull the hell out of the knife. I just use a sponge, warm water and some soap on my knives.
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Dec 29, 2014 06:46
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Got my Tojiro 240mm gyuto in today, and it's a huge step up over the Victorinox it's replacing. The choil definitely needs to be smoothed out with some sandpaper, but I'll live for now. The stock edge is quite good, but I definitely want to see what this blade can do after some time on some water stones. One weird thing about mine is that the logotype and label on the handle don't match any of the stock photos I've seen of the DP series online. I'm sure it's just a newer/older stock thing, or maybe a reseller thing (I got mine from Amazon), but it did stand out. 
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Dec 30, 2014 03:19
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TheJeffers posted:Got my Tojiro 240mm gyuto in today, and it's a huge step up over the Victorinox it's replacing. The choil definitely needs to be smoothed out with some sandpaper, but I'll live for now. The stock edge is quite good, but I definitely want to see what this blade can do after some time on some water stones. 
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Dec 30, 2014 03:53
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TheJeffers posted:Got my Tojiro 240mm gyuto in today, and it's a huge step up over the Victorinox it's replacing. The choil definitely needs to be smoothed out with some sandpaper, but I'll live for now. The stock edge is quite good, but I definitely want to see what this blade can do after some time on some water stones. nice! congrats. yeah Tojiros are pretty renowned for needing a bit of touch up out of the box, at least for knife spergs. based on your photo it looks like it could probably use quite a bit of thinning behind the edge and probably a more aggressive edge, too.
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Dec 30, 2014 04:07
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Tell me why I shouldn't but this. Tojiro Black Finished Shiro-ko Kasumi Nakiri - 6.4" (16.5cm) https://www.amazon.com/dp/B000UANWGE/
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Dec 30, 2014 05:06
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Flash Gordon Ramsay posted:Tell me why I shouldn't but this. Because you can get a 9.5in kiritsuke for $70? And they look infinitely cooler.
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Dec 30, 2014 05:12
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Flash Gordon Ramsay posted:Tell me why I shouldn't but this. If you don't want the kurouchi finish, bluewayjapan has them without: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Japanese-Kn...=item3a95d925a6 cheaper, too. otherwise, it looks fine. gitchu one, report back. I've been eyeing one of those tojiro shiro nakiris for no other reason other than I want an excuse to buy another knife :X
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Dec 30, 2014 05:28
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Flash Gordon Ramsay posted:Tell me why I shouldn't but this. There is no real reason not to unless you don't want to deal with the highly reactive iron cladding on that line.
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Dec 30, 2014 06:06
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Just went over to a friend's house. They had a Global chef knife, I think 7" (tiny. Better than their 5" Wusthof santoku.) I utterly despise the handle. How the hell do you put any pressure on it? It hurt my hand cutting through pre-sliced swiss cheese. Is there any better way to use it than a standard pinch grip? Just curious, not planning on getting any. Knife shopping on Saturday, woohoo. Not sure if I'll find anything, but hopefully it'll at least give me a chance to feel D and octagon handles so I can compare. I'm absolutely not feeling bound to get anything now, so worst case scenario I get a feel for some knives and order online.
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Dec 30, 2014 08:34
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Karia posted:but hopefully it'll at least give me a chance to feel D  Don't worry, you're not alone with the global hate. I for one love the feel of a good D tho  When shopping also pay attention to the blade profile. Some have more swoop to the belly others more flat, depending on how you like to use your knife it could be something you love or hate also. Many stores will have a cutting board so you can rock the knife on it and feel the profile through the belly.
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Dec 30, 2014 09:12
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Karia posted:Just went over to a friend's house. They had a Global chef knife, I think 7" (tiny. Better than their 5" Wusthof santoku.) I utterly despise the handle. How the hell do you put any pressure on it? It hurt my hand cutting through pre-sliced swiss cheese. Is there any better way to use it than a standard pinch grip? Just curious, not planning on getting any. Yeah, not a big fan of the global handles here either. I have knives with octagonal handles and I have found them just as comfortable as western style handles. The main difference is that the knives with japanese handles are balanced around the pinch grip so they can feel slightly blade heavy in a racket grip, though because of the lightness of japanese knives in general the blade heaviness is fairly minor and I have found it useful in getting a little bit more force into my chopping.
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Dec 30, 2014 09:24
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AVeryLargeRadish posted:There is no real reason not to unless you don't want to deal with the highly reactive iron cladding on that line. Anything special I need to know about taking care of it?
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Dec 30, 2014 13:55
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Flash Gordon Ramsay posted:Anything special I need to know about taking care of it? Not really, just wash and throughly dry it after each use, some people like to keep a towel next to their cutting board and wipe it every few cuts. If you are going to store it for a while you might want to put some mineral oil on it to keep moisture off. Also, it will need some sharpening, the out of the box edge on these is pretty bad but with some sharpening they will take a really great edge. Though I have heard horror stories about cladding so reactive that you can watch the rust form in mere seconds after contact with a liquid, dunno how much truth there is to that. There are some good alternatives if you are willing to pay more for something stainless or stainless clad.
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Dec 30, 2014 14:12
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So this isn't one of those that will develop a protective patina?
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Dec 30, 2014 14:16
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Flash Gordon Ramsay posted:So this isn't one of those that will develop a protective patina? It might or might not, they sometimes they develop rust before the patina and then you have to clean the rust off and hope that next time it patinas instead. Even then the patina will wear off from washing and cutting stuff, so you always have to be on the lookout for anything orange and clean it off before it can eat into the cladding. It varies from knife to knife and also based on what ingredients you cut, so it can be hard to nail down. The Tojiro white steel line's cladding it just one of the most reactive iron claddings out there and I thought you should know before jumping in. 
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Dec 30, 2014 14:31
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Flash Gordon Ramsay posted:So this isn't one of those that will develop a protective patina? Force a patina. Take some yellow mustard, thin it just a bit with water, dab it onto the knife with a paper towel, let it dry, and wash it off. Instant patina. e: I have 2 knives out of that line, they do form patina, and aren't stupidly reactive, but will rust if left wet for a minute or two. Once you've got your patina though, it's much less likely to be an issue.
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Dec 30, 2014 16:09
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I kind of want one just to see how reactive it is. My Moritaka is pretty reactive but it's not really that big of a deal if you keep it wiped down. Part of me wonders if the knifespergs are overreacting a smidge. then again a Tanaka is blue #2 and in the same price range so, idk, shirogami seems better suited to things where you really really need a keen edge all the time like yanagibas and sujihikis. Veg prep like nakiris seem like a more durable steel would serve better. edit for link to tanaka http://www.ebay.com/itm/Japanese-Ta...=item2edb875708 GrAviTy84 fucked around with this message at 00:16 on Dec 31, 2014 |
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Dec 31, 2014 00:05
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also: anyone ever try the wokshop cleavers? http://wokshop.stores.yahoo.net/vegcleav.html theyre way cheaper than CCKs, but CCKs are now 60bux and honestly that's ridiculous.
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Dec 31, 2014 00:16
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GrAviTy84 posted:also: anyone ever try the wokshop cleavers? http://wokshop.stores.yahoo.net/vegcleav.html  You can tell which one sees more use. The CCK is a #1 slicer, so it's a little bigger than the one you'd get from chefknivestogo (unless they've changed things, they sell the #3, which is smaller). But the wokshop cleaver is around 21cm. Not tiny, but noticeably smaller. The build quality is okay. Handle construction is essentially identical to the CCK (tang through then hammered over). The blade is slightly thicker and there's more belly to the blade, neither of which I consider an improvement. If you want a punchline, it's definitely no replacement for a CCK, but it isn't the worst US$10 I've spent on cutlery.
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Dec 31, 2014 02:28
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they also have other cleavers, too http://wokshop.stores.yahoo.net/carsteelclea.html
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Dec 31, 2014 02:46
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GrAviTy84 posted:they also have other cleavers, too
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Dec 31, 2014 04:51
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 Knife shopping! I got a nakiri. Very similar to the SLD that Radish suggested, D-shaped handle, stainless-clad SLD. However, the blade is much flatter, which I ended up preferring. It cuts very nicely, is very light, and I'm declaring victory. I got it at Bernal Cutlery, which I recommend for any Bay Area knifegoons. The staff knew what they were talking about and were very helpful, and the selection seemed quite good, too. I can't comment on prices, though, not enough points of reference. GrAviTy84 posted:
Sigh. Keep it classy, Gravity.
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Jan 4, 2015 04:52
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Karia posted:
Very nice looking knife! I prefer a flatter profile too so I would have chosen that one over the other SLD blade I suggested anyway.
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Jan 4, 2015 12:01
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e50gujs4l-I A range of carbon steel knives tested, then tested vs the best stainless steel knives. Result: a $300 carbon steel is the best, followed closely by a $40 stainless.
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Jan 7, 2015 09:06
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Yeah, that's about right. Victorinox is a great knife which is why it is recommended so often as a first knife for people getting into it. They greatly oversimplify carbide and grain though. There isnt just stainless and carbon, there are hundreds of specific alloys of each, from lovely cheap 440 stainless to fancy vg10 and molybdenum vanadium alloys. Likewise in carbon steel. There is cheap tool steel like sk5 and there are ultra pure Hitachi patented alloys like shirogami #1. Kramer uses 52100 alloy carbon steel. Its a great steel. I don't have a CI sub, so I don't know what else they tested against but I didn't recognize any of the ones that I would go up to after a victorinox (takeda, moritaka, masakage, masamoto, gesshin etc). I don't even think there was a single wa handle knife on there so I would be hesitant to say $300 or bust. Takeaways are yes victorinox owns. They are right that it is more than just the label "carbon steel" that matters, heat treating, alloy choice, etc all play a factor. If you're a push chopper though that belly on the Kramer would be annoying as poo poo.
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Jan 7, 2015 09:30
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Oh wow, the Victorinox is on sale for $30 now. http://www.amazon.com/dp/B000638D32/
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Jan 7, 2015 09:34
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Fozzy The Bear posted:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e50gujs4l-I ... Well, that was a thing. Let's deconstruct it, shall we? A stainless knife will come somewhere around 56 Rockwell C hardness, compared to a carbon steel which might be a bit north of 60. I can't find any hard numbers on glass HRC, because it's so hard and brittle that it's basically impossible to test. Essentially, it's off the scale. The end result is that their test on the glass sheet (which was flat-out abuse of the knives) was utterly meaningless. The glass is far harder than either, and will destroy them both at roughly the same rate. Trying to claim that they'll both wear at the same rate in normal work conditions from that test is meaningless. Sharpness is also very hard to quantify. There's no really good way of comparing the edges in a manner that's anywhere near objective. You could try to get there by measuring cut force, but slicing paper and relying on a non-blind subjective test isn't going to tell you much. Now, we don't really have to get that precise here, since subjective feel actually is kind of the point. But they're packing a huge amount of different factors into a simple test, and it's not going to work. For example, they didn't mention that you can't sharpen most stainless steels as finely as carbon. It's too soft, the edge bends. So when they said that the thinner edges are better at the beginning... yeah, those were the carbons and harder stainless. So. Get a knife you can take care of. A well-maintained stainless will beat the crap out of an abused carbon. But when you're comparing apples to apples, it's not going to mean much. Meanwhile, if edge sharpness is our only criteria, I'll just sit here with some hand-knapped glass blades and have fun with my single-atom edges. Talk to the guys with the electron microscope or maybe some eye surgeons, they might be able to help you.
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Jan 7, 2015 09:48
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Fozzy The Bear posted:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e50gujs4l-I Wow, that was terrible. They completely ignore the shape of the grind, which has huge, huge effects on the way the knife cuts. Grind is easily more important in most cases than steel type or edge sharpness. They also categorize into "carbon" or "stainless" when there are many types of both steels and there are very large differences in edge taking and edge holding ability from steel to steel. HRC is primarily decided by the heat treat and the limits of the HRC are decided by steel composition. As an example White Steel #1, aka Shirogami #1, is generally treated to around 60-63 HRC, though there are some exceptions like the Teruyasu-Fujiwara knives somehow manage to reach a usable 64-65 HRC, presumably via some form of dark magic. VG-10, a common higher end stainless steel is regularly treated to 60-63 just like Shirogami #1, but it won't take as fine of an edge because of grain structure and carbide shape, it also tends to be more brittle and "crunchy" regardless of the HRC when compared to Shirogami #1. ZDP189, an extremely high end and hideously expensive stainless steel, is generally treated to 66-67 HRC, well above almost any carbon while also being incredibly strongly stainless with 20% chromium content. Based on what I have observed I would say that the heat treat is by far the most important part of what defines the feel and qualities of a particular knife's steel and I would much rather have a random stainless knife with a good heat treat, profile and grind than a random carbon knife with deficiencies in any of those areas. Also, as has been pointed out, the glass cutting board test is just terrible and will ruin the edge regardless of the quality or hardness of the steel. If they really wanted to test them for edge retention they should have put them through a week or so of prep work in a restaurant environment and checked for sharpness at the end of each day. Fozzy The Bear posted:Oh wow, the Victorinox is on sale for $30 now. It's almost always on sale for $30 IME, that's what I got mine for. v  v
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Jan 7, 2015 11:07
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RedChops posted:A couple years ago I bought a set of Chicago Cutlery knives, mostly because they looked nice. I later found that they don't really hold their edge well. I got a 18 knife block set of cutco as a wedding present. What I like about them is the lifetime replacement and free sharping that comes with the purchase. I lost one of the 8 steak knives (think it fell in trashcan), the next day some pimple infested kid was at my door with a replacement and attempted to sharpen all my knives. I declined and he gave me the sharpening block for free. He did try to sell me some sissors and cut one of his own pennies in half to demo. I gave him two quarters for his troubles and showed him the door. So I guess he made a 49 cent profit off me Cutco has great knives so far from my experience
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Jan 7, 2015 13:52
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good jovi posted:I got that chinese Edge Pro knockoff that I think someone linked in here for Christmas. It's a lot of fun to use. What angle do most people use for their knives? I had just been free-handing it with a water stone, so I've never really worried about the actual angle. I got one of these things for christmas too! I have the same question as you, I need to sharpen my Wusthof Classic 8" and Victorinox 8", which angle should I use?
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Jan 7, 2015 21:28
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BraveUlysses posted:I got one of these things for christmas too! I have the same question as you, I need to sharpen my Wusthof Classic 8" and Victorinox 8", which angle should I use? For soft steels like those a 18-20 degree angle is most effective, closer to 18 for higher sharpness and closer to 20 for longer edge retention. For hard steel like Japanese knives around 12-16 degrees.
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Jan 7, 2015 21:43
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AVeryLargeRadish posted:For soft steels like those a 18-20 degree angle is most effective, closer to 18 for higher sharpness and closer to 20 for longer edge retention. For hard steel like Japanese knives around 12-16 degrees. I mean I really don't care about online knife arguments in general, and really don't care about online knife sharpening arguments. But I kinda feel like there are a lot of people going out there and buying knives with high-end Japanese steels and then are sharpening them down to single-digit bevels just because they feel like they have to because otherwise they're doing it wrong or they're going to offend the Hanzo spirits or whatever the gently caress. And then a week later they're posting that they've chipped the blade. When they'd probably be way better off with a less acute angle and better edge retention because about 90% of what they're doing is general veg prep or whatever and you don't get much out of having a really acute primary for poo poo like that.
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Jan 8, 2015 02:22
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BraveUlysses posted:I got one of these things for christmas too! I have the same question as you, I need to sharpen my Wusthof Classic 8" and Victorinox 8", which angle should I use? 18 to 20 is about right - but be careful, the factory marks for angles on the sharpener might be way off. They were on mine, by like 10 degrees. Measure the angle yourself when you set it.
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Jan 8, 2015 05:25
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SubG posted:Eh. Steel is part of the equation, but things like the blade geometry matter. As does what you're actually planning on using the knife for, and what your maintenance routine looks like. Errrr, I agree..? Single digit bevels are silly and just cause your edge to wear out faster and micro chip or chip outright. In general I use a 14 degree(28 degree inclusive) bevel on my japanese knives because I find it to work well and last a long time between sharpenings. The victorinox just gets a 20 degree(40 inclusive) bevel because it works and because the knife is there for more abusive jobs anyway.
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Jan 8, 2015 08:03
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How do you guys measure/know the angle to sharpen at or do you just kind of learn it with time and practice like most things? At the local Japanese market they had some miniature grinding and finishing stones for which I assume would be setup for Japanese angles? I can't read the Japanese so I cannot say for sure.
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Jan 8, 2015 16:04
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Salsa McManus posted:How do you guys measure/know the angle to sharpen at or do you just kind of learn it with time and practice like most things? At the local Japanese market they had some miniature grinding and finishing stones for which I assume would be setup for Japanese angles? I can't read the Japanese so I cannot say for sure. The sharpening systems that people are talking about can be set to a specific angle. I have no idea what you saw at the Japanese market so I can't really comment on that. For normal stones you generally just go by feel, when you hit the angle of the bevel you can feel it catch against the surface of the stone, eventually you just learn what different angles feel like. There are also angle guides like this.
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Jan 8, 2015 17:42
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Salsa McManus posted:How do you guys measure/know the angle to sharpen at or do you just kind of learn it with time and practice like most things? At the local Japanese market they had some miniature grinding and finishing stones for which I assume would be setup for Japanese angles? I can't read the Japanese so I cannot say for sure. You can buy little guides for various angles, or for a lazy quick trick fold a piece of paper into a triangle for a 22.5 or 11.25 angle. But mostly time and practice.
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Jan 8, 2015 17:43
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