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Kyrie eleison posted:Christianity has been rapidly growing in China, despite persecution, at a faster clip than any time in history, to the extent that China is predicted to become the most Christian nation. There's presently estimated at over 100 million Christians in China. They're syncretists like yourself, but unlike yourself they blend Christianity with real and majestic cultural beliefs, not with base libertarianism and Reaganism.
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Dec 30, 2014 17:26
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Kyrie eleison posted:Essential doctrines held by the Church are infallible, such as the Trinity, the Assumption of Mary, the Real Presence, outside the Church there is no salvation, etc. Not everything the Church does is infallible. It is human and has had plenty of corruption throughout its history. During and after Vatican II, there have been some excessive attempts at "ecumenism" by some overly ambitious (and likely corrupt) theologians, but they will ultimately be seen as errors by history. And what makes that infallible? To your personal faith? Sure, its infallible. But what makes your religion any more true than Islam, Mormonism, Baptists, etc.? YOU think its true. That's great. But you are trying to convince others its true. That requires a little more than 'I feel it is true' to convince others. In the end, the entirety of Christianity is a human invention. To claim it as infallible ignores the fact that WE made it. Humans made it. It is no more infallible than Zeus or other Gods/Goddesses that came before.
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Dec 30, 2014 17:28
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happyhippy posted:The question is why does God want us in heaven with him. Been there for eons without us, then all of a sudden wants to force bipeds to cut either their cocks or other peoples heads off to join him and sing forever. We cannot know his motives, only that he loves us enough to have sent his Son for us, so that we might have eternal life. Dzhay posted:To the various Christians and pseudochristian trolls in this thread: if you're going to go full Plato, does your God not end up being timeless and unchanging? If so, how can it think, or have opinions on whither dicks should go? God is unchanging in character and opinion, because He already knows everything.
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Dec 30, 2014 17:29
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Kyrie eleison posted:We cannot know his motives, only that he loves us enough to have sent his Son for us, so that we might have eternal life. Loves us so much that, as George Carlin pointed out, he made a pit of fire and agony for those who didn't take note of him. Nice guy. Kyrie eleison posted:God is unchanging in character and opinion, because He already knows everything. 
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Dec 30, 2014 17:30
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Kyrie eleison posted:God is unchanging in character and opinion, because He already knows everything. So God still supports slavery then, since he personally outlined the ways to own and treat other human beings as property in Leviticus.
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Dec 30, 2014 17:30
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Who What Now posted:So God still supports slavery then, since he personally outlined the ways to own and treat other human beings as property in Leviticus. Blah blah blah Old Testament old laws Jesus changed it blah blah blah. But we'll still be quoting those books in the Sermon!
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Dec 30, 2014 17:32
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Kyrie eleison posted:Essential doctrines held by the Church are infallible, such as the Trinity, the Assumption of Mary, the Real Presence, outside the Church there is no salvation, etc. Not everything the Church does is infallible. The essentialness of the doctrines is not the test; mere formalities for the preparations of documents by the Church are. I mean, you'd have to back down about the acts of the church - that's a no brainer. It has even knowingly made use of forgeries to steal land. Nonetheless, there are curious acts that have had the full sanction of the church that have always been inexplicable in doctrine - such as the resignation of popes or previous grandiose claims on the church's part in papal bulls to secular power. CommieGIR posted:And what makes that infallible? To your personal faith? Sure, its infallible. Real answer: strange and unintended foibles in the understanding of Roman law.
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Dec 30, 2014 17:39
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Who What Now posted:So God still supports slavery then, since he personally outlined the ways to own and treat other human beings as property in Leviticus. Uh yeah? Slavery is quintessentially Christian, despite the lies and biblical distortions of those apostate abolitionists. Remember you're talking to a guy who thinks interracial and intercultural marriage is disordered and poisonous to children.
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Dec 30, 2014 17:41
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Kyrie eleison posted:We cannot know his motives, only that he loves us enough to have sent his Son for us, so that we might have eternal life. We do know his motive, so we can sing his praises at his side forever. And he loves us enough to watch us be to be eternally torn apart for something trival over 80 years of average life time. Even if you started an orphanage, cured a plague, saved millions, or introduced peace for generations, you are going straight to hell for not having your cock cut off, or shaved too much, or didnt cover yourself up, or not know your place in your caste. But hey, a soppy eyed portrait of a white Jesus in your house will counter that, see Jesus loves you! God never cured an amputee. Ever. God is a oval office.
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Dec 30, 2014 17:51
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VitalSigns posted:Uh yeah? Slavery is quintessentially Christian, despite the lies and biblical distortions of those apostate abolitionists. Well yeah, but I wanna hear him say it or try to weasel out of it. VitalSigns posted:Remember you're talking to a guy who thinks interracial and intercultural marriage is disordered and poisonous to children. "But how can they be both black and white?! They'll have to act like a black person and white person at the same time."
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Dec 30, 2014 17:53
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Disinterested posted:Real answer: strange and unintended foibles in the understanding of Roman law. Thank goodness they saw the error of that paganism and accepted the TRUE religion. Who What Now posted:Well yeah, but I wanna hear him say it or try to weasel out of it. Yet, lo, Kyrie had foreseen the blasphemy of Who What Now, and verily did place him upon the ignore list forever and ever, Amen. CommieGIR fucked around with this message at 17:55 on Dec 30, 2014 |
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Dec 30, 2014 17:53
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Kyrie eleison posted:We cannot know his motives, only that he loves us enough to have sent his Son for us, so that we might have eternal life. Sorry, that wasn't really my point. If god is unchanging, it doesn't think. So it's not really a person in any meaningful sense. Your god can't have opinions, nor motives, it can't become angry or disappointed. It's an inert slab with some rules engraved on it; you might argue that they are the right rules, but the slab can hardly be said to have an opinion on this (or any other) matter.
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Dec 30, 2014 18:02
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Who What Now posted:Oh sure, we appear to have free will but do not have it in actuality. I'm not really sure what "having it in actuality" would even look like. Can someone explain how "free will" is a meaningful concept in any conceivable universe?
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Dec 30, 2014 18:06
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I don't see why God couldn't have created a universe in which everyone has the free will to accept or reject salvation, but no one happens to choose rejection.
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Dec 30, 2014 18:06
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SedanChair posted:They're syncretists like yourself, but unlike yourself they blend Christianity with real and majestic cultural beliefs, not with base libertarianism and Reaganism. For now, at least, I am trying to stay on-point and not dabble in other ideologies. None of them ultimately satisfy me as much as Christianity. They are ideas I now associate with my past, or the path I took to get here, and so I have defended them. But I don't need to, really. I also sometimes just want to rile people up, so I defend things they hate, but I'm going to try and stop doing that... for this morning at least. I know myself too well to predict my future behavior. Who What Now posted:So God still supports slavery then, since he personally outlined the ways to own and treat other human beings as property in Leviticus. Jesus accounts for flaws in the Mosaic Law by saying they were a result of people being unable to accept the fullness of God's teaching, so they were given an imperfect one. He gives the example of divorce being allowed (Mt 19:8). So, Leviticus is not the full law. The purpose of the passage in Lv 25:44-46 is to ensure that the Israelites do not enslave one another. It is a step in the right direction. But slavery violates the dignity of all mankind and the Seventh Commandment, "you shall not steal." The fullness of the law is that no man should enslave. I have to go to work now. Back later.
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Dec 30, 2014 18:08
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Kyrie eleison posted:Jesus accounts for flaws in the Mosaic Law by saying they were a result of people being unable to accept the fullness of God's teaching, so they were given an imperfect one. He gives the example of divorce being allowed (Mt 19:8). So, Leviticus is not the full law. The purpose of the passage in Lv 25:44-46 is to ensure that the Israelites do not enslave one another. It is a step in the right direction. But slavery violates the dignity of all mankind and the Seventh Commandment, "you shall not steal." The fullness of the law is that no man should enslave. Yeah. Not each other. Just enslave other groups. Wait did you just make a libertarian 'People as Property' argument? A real winner. Kyrie eleison posted:For now, at least, I am trying to stay on-point and not dabble in other ideologies. None of them ultimately satisfy me as much as Christianity. They are ideas I now associate with my past, or the path I took to get here, and so I have defended them. But I don't need to, really. You are so fulfilled that you are a gay guy who thinks hes a sociopath being saved by Christianity. Take your meds, sociopath.
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Dec 30, 2014 18:12
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Kyrie eleison posted:Jesus accounts for flaws in the Mosaic Law by saying they were a result of people being unable to accept the fullness of God's teaching, so they were given an imperfect one. He gives the example of divorce being allowed (Mt 19:8). So, Leviticus is not the full law. The purpose of the passage in Lv 25:44-46 is to ensure that the Israelites do not enslave one another. It is a step in the right direction. But slavery violates the dignity of all mankind and the Seventh Commandment, "you shall not steal." The fullness of the law is that no man should enslave. So God was so inept that he couldn't think of a way to say "don't enslave anyone" in a way the Israelites would understand? And I'm supposed to worship this idiot? You also need to go back and actually read Leviticus because there are in fact many ways for them to enslave fellow Israelites! For women it was as simple as just selling off your daughter, as female Jews sold as slaves did not go free after seven years like male Jewish slaves did. However, even that was surmountable, for if a man was given a wife by his master and they started a family then the wife and children did not go free when the husband did. If a man wished to keep him family together he had to go up to the village elders and declare that he loved his family and wished to remain with them, whereupon his ear would be pierced with an awl to show that he would remain a slave for the rest of his life. And at no point did God or Jesus ever say "Hey don't do this it's super hosed up". In fact Jesus told slaves to obey and love their masters which is the exact opposite of what he should have said. Shits hosed up.
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Dec 30, 2014 18:21
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Who What Now posted:So God was so inept that he couldn't think of a way to say "don't enslave anyone" in a way the Israelites would understand? And I'm supposed to worship this idiot? Here comes that 'interpretation' and 'product of the times' logic bomb....
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Dec 30, 2014 18:24
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CommieGIR posted:Loves us so much that, as George Carlin pointed out, he made a pit of fire and agony for those who didn't take note of him. I'm sure we've been over this: the torment of hell is the torment of separation from God. You are all proud of your ability to choose good over evil: well, here is the consequence that goes with that choice. God did not make the agony - you did, by your own choices.
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Dec 30, 2014 18:26
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CommieGIR posted:Here comes that 'interpretation' and 'product of the times' logic bomb.... Probably, but given Kyrie's known loathing of other things that enable human freedom, he might just claim it was good then and would be good now if done according to ~*godly Church strictures*~ or some poo poo.
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Dec 30, 2014 18:28
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Cavaradossi posted:I'm sure we've been over this: the torment of hell is the torment of separation from God. You are all proud of your ability to choose good over evil: well, here is the consequence that goes with that choice. God did not make the agony - you did, by your own choices. Except that God knows the choices we'll make. Great guy, knowing what we'll choose and punishing us for it despite us not relaly making a choice.
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Dec 30, 2014 18:29
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Cavaradossi posted:I'm sure we've been over this: the torment of hell is the torment of separation from God. You are all proud of your ability to choose good over evil: well, here is the consequence that goes with that choice. God did not make the agony - you did, by your own choices. I'd point out the fact that perfectly 'Good' people are going to hell based on the interpretation Kyrie is using, but I'm sure you have something for that. You know you are not really convincing anyone otherwise with this stuff, right?
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Dec 30, 2014 18:29
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Q: What does God tell a sinner with two black eyes? A: Nothing, He's already told him twice.
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Dec 30, 2014 18:30
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Literally The Worst posted:Except that God knows the choices we'll make. Great guy, knowing what we'll choose and punishing us for it despite us not relaly making a choice. We've been over this too: you do make the choice; yes God knows about it, but you made it.
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Dec 30, 2014 18:32
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Cavaradossi posted:We've been over this too: you do make the choice; yes God knows about it, but you made it. Thank goodness its all poo poo made up by humans and this whole appeal to religious logic is just an exercise in futility.
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Dec 30, 2014 18:33
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CommieGIR posted:I'd point out the fact that perfectly 'Good' people are going to hell based on the interpretation Kyrie is using, but I'm sure you have something for that. CommieGIR posted:You know you are not really convincing anyone otherwise with this stuff, right?
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Dec 30, 2014 18:35
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Kyrie eleison posted:I also sometimes just want to rile people up, so I defend things they hate, but I'm going to try and stop doing that... for this morning at least. I know myself too well to predict my future behavior. You know what I hate? Sucking big dicks.
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Dec 30, 2014 18:40
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Cavaradossi posted:I'm sure we've been over this: the torment of hell is the torment of separation from God. You are all proud of your ability to choose good over evil: well, here is the consequence that goes with that choice. God did not make the agony - you did, by your own choices. I choose neither to be with God nor to be tormented by his absence. What happens now?
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Dec 30, 2014 18:40
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Cavaradossi posted:The relevant section of the Catechism is CCC 1033 - 1037. You don't need me to convince you, you can read it yourself. Oh look, human defined features of a human created religion. VERY convincing. I'm sold. From a human created book even! WOWZA! Cavaradossi posted:If they've separated from God, yes that is Hell. I don't think Kyrie has set himself as judge though (and the Catechism and Scripture tells us not to!). You missed the part where he damned us all as sociopaths unless we accepted his premise about religion and said we'd all convert on our death beds. Sounds like judgement to me! CommieGIR fucked around with this message at 18:43 on Dec 30, 2014 |
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Dec 30, 2014 18:40
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Cavaradossi posted:We've been over this too: you do make the choice; yes God knows about it, but you made it. Yes, and your answer then was just as incoherent and unconvincing as it is now.
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Dec 30, 2014 18:41
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Cavaradossi posted:We've been over this too: you do make the choice; yes God knows about it, but you made it. It's not a choice if there's only one option.
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Dec 30, 2014 18:41
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Who What Now posted:It's not a choice if there's only one option. You can choose anything you like though.
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Dec 30, 2014 18:43
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CommieGIR posted:Is it a sin to touch yourself as you watch the sinners be flayed alive? Considering the staggering amount of people who find Ramsay Bolton sexually attractive...
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Dec 30, 2014 18:44
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Who What Now posted:It's not a choice if there's only one option. Cake or death!
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Dec 30, 2014 18:44
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Cavaradossi posted:You can choose anything you like though. Are all people, made in all their different circumstances, equally likely to make the right choice?
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Dec 30, 2014 18:45
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CommieGIR posted:Oh look, human defined features of a human created religion. VERY convincing. The Catholic Church's position on Hell is that it is separation from God. You can read that in the Catechism. I'm not sure how else I can convince you that that is the position of the Church.
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Dec 30, 2014 18:45
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Ok, here's a question. Suppose I never sin, ever, in my whole life. Do I need to repent? Do I need Jesus' sacrifice? Is this even possible?
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Dec 30, 2014 18:46
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Cavaradossi posted:The Catholic Church's position on Hell is that it is separation from God. You can read that in the Catechism. I'm not sure how else I can convince you that that is the position of the Church. I'm not sure how much more I need to say to convince you that I do no regard the Catholic Church as being a monopoly on truth unlike what you and Kyrie claim. Or any reality in their claims for that matter. bokkibear posted:Ok, here's a question. Suppose I never sin, ever, in my whole life. Do I need to repent? Do I need Jesus' sacrifice? Is this even possible? Original Sin!
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Dec 30, 2014 18:47
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Cavaradossi posted:You can choose anything you like though. No, I can't, I can only choose what God has forseen. That's only 1 choice.
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Dec 30, 2014 18:47
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Cavaradossi posted:You can choose anything you like though. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MZ1lc6KASWg
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Dec 30, 2014 18:47
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