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The Legend of Korra and Avatar the Last Airbender were overall both really good shows that I greatly enjoyed and I'm glad to have watched them. If there's ever any more to this series somehow I will watch that too. Goodbye weird thread.
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Dec 30, 2014 22:11
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lDDQD posted:Dude, what?! The Boulder takes issue with that comment. Seriously AtLA was good. It had dodgy animation at points and bad plotting at points, some locations were boring but it was very rare for its weaknesses in any episode to overpower its strengths. The single episode characters were at the very least funny and there were enough little moments, looks and whole scenes with the reoccurring characters to properly characterise them, make you emotionally involved in the plot and make the whole thing good if not great. Unfortunately Korra seemed to reverse this trend especially at the critical moments that it could have all come together until the later series. namesake fucked around with this message at 22:23 on Dec 30, 2014 |
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Dec 30, 2014 22:21
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atla had a strong 3 act structure that traditional heroic fiction thrives on. Korra suffers because they tell the same "Korra fights a revolutionary antagonist, who brutalizes her, robbing her of some of her capability, from which she recovers and overcomes her foe" several times in an episodic format, diluting the overall character arc. I can tell they finally figured out what story they wanted to tell by book 3, because Korra's traumas at the hands of Amon and Unulaq are given lip service during s3/s4 at best but Zaheer's is visited time and again. About 50% of Korra's runtime is faffing about, experimenting with telling the aforementioned premise. In the end, most of Season 1 could be rolled into Season 2. Introduce the characters, introduce a minor villain that wants to do spirit shenanigans. Foreshadow the Red Lotus moving against a more featured White Lotus, have Korra defeat the minor villain. Airbending comes back. Cue s3 plot, with more runtime to explore the characters.
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Dec 30, 2014 22:39
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SpiderHyphenMan posted:Comparisons between the Star Wars prequels and Korra really bug me because it's clear that Korra, flawed as it is, was a labor of love and a lot of blood, sweat, and tears went into it. The prequels were all about marketability and had no artistic care put into them. Combine Raiko and Unalaq and you basically have the PT.
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Dec 30, 2014 23:01
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It's a shame, because an overarching plot of Aang's successor dealing with an anarchist splinter faction of the White Lotus would have been an amazing show. I really like Legend of Korra, callouses and all, but questionable creative decisions and real-world circumstances make it a show where entertaining what might have been is just natural.
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Dec 30, 2014 23:11
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gmq posted:I almost agree with this but while I enjoyed Azula's breakdown the first time I watched ATLA, it suffered in the rewatch as it was very sudden with the only slightest of foreshadowing if you watch The Beach. I'm just gonna quote myself from the last ATLA thread. Lady Gagazula posted:What we see in the finale is simply the culmination of her breakdown. The events of The Boiling Rock Part II send Azula on a downward spiral and as the season continued we could see her becoming crazier and more unhinged until she eventually succumbed to rampant paranoia and outright madness. Sozin's Comet did conclude her breakdown, but IMO it actually started several episodes prior. Lady Gagazula posted:Here she is from episode 201.
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Dec 30, 2014 23:14
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I really just don't see it, Gagazula.MrAristocrates posted:Close the thread, it's not getting any better than this. I agree, this is how the thread should go out. Instead lets have an ATLA vs. LoK slapfight. I'll say that I watched ATLA long after most of the people on this board did, and ended up watching LoK kind of reluctantly after hearing it was a bad show (this is right after S2 first aired). I ended up loving it. I think expectations going in are a lot of the issue, given how ATLA seems to have been built up in peoples' heads.
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Dec 30, 2014 23:38
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Kibayasu posted:Asami will probably take care of that. I believe that sort of accomplishment is illegal in the UK now. But it seems whenever THING is one's first experience with a genre or franchise tends to make people insist it's BEST EVER no matter the actual quality. This is why people love N64 Goldeneye or Final Fantasy 7 or G1 Transformers cartoon, ect ect. Looking back they might not have even been that good THEN but taking one's Nerd Virginity for thing plus nostalgia glasses and childhood memories makes it seem better than it was. I'm halfway through Book 1 of Avatar. It ain't as good as Korra. Maybe it gets there and folks are just remembering whatever heights it reaches and thinking all of it was that good (ala the G1 Transformers cartoon movie which is the only G1 animation that is actually good in any way besides amused ironic enjoyment of how loving STUPID that cartoon usually was, though the third season has a couple of rad/funny as poo poo/THEY ALLOWED THIS FOR US 80s KIDS? Episodes here and there.) but right now it's merely nice and pleasant. If it were on TV now and divorced from Korra and I hadn't bought DVDs and have had people tell me how good it is I cannot say I would keep watching it. The one episode I saw during its actual airing was merely ok but I didn't care much. ( I gave that Kill La Kill anime 2 episodes and even in spite of people saying how great it was I thought it kind of sucked even without the creepy rear end combat costumes that even a 90s Image Comic would have thrown out as too skimpy and silly.) Course different folks like different things and connect to them in different ways. Plus circumstances. I sure as hell wouldn't have watched that Horsie Cartoon had it been a weekly thing or I hadn't seen a mega thread and the weather was basically an endless snowmaggedon apocalypse that week so binging on a half season on the youtubes was pretty much the only thing I had to do and next thing I knew I was hooked. Then there was a Doctor Who (which also has a loud OLD STUFF WAS SO MUCH BETTER ARGLRHGHVJHVJH contingent) that I mostly just DVRed the episodes on Sci Fi to kill time till next BSG season and merely thought it was ok until Dalek which actually made me a fan of Doctor Who in general. Till that episode it was just another ok show. Edit: OH NOES MR TROLLYMAN OF THREAD HAS DISCOVERED.. I WATCH A CARTOON HERE IN THIS CARTOON THREAD. Is it any wonder this thing is getting locked? Possibly Avatar had a similar situation with folks as some of my examples above? Captain Rufus fucked around with this message at 02:53 on Dec 31, 2014 |
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Dec 31, 2014 00:01
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I watched all of ATLA and Korra through to the end of Season 3 starting after the finale aired and finished just in time for Season 4 so I don't have nostalgia for anything and I'll still say ATLA was better overall especially once they got into their groove by Season 2.
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Dec 31, 2014 00:09
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I think its worth noting in this ATLA vs Korra debate that the shows had different themes and motiffs that may be influencing opinions. For example, and this is a superficial one, ATLA was more spiritual and medieval wuxia while Korra was more about spirituality struggle to exist with the advancement of technology and was less wuxia to reflect benders, to a degree, being replaced by technology. There are, of course, deeper differences.
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Dec 31, 2014 00:14
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The tone and format is also pretty different despite their being in the same setting. Which is probably responsible at least in part for this: Eej posted:I watched all of ATLA and Korra through to the end of Season 3 starting after the finale aired and finished just in time for Season 4 so I don't have nostalgia for anything and I'll still say ATLA was better overall especially once they got into their groove by Season 2. being totally different from my experience despite being virtually the same. Me and this guy both basically marathoned both series. I liked LoK more, he liked ATLA more. It happens.
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Dec 31, 2014 00:25
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Captain Rufus posted:
Quoting this for posterity
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Dec 31, 2014 00:47
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The Sharmat posted:I really just don't see it, Gagazula. IMO Azula, for most of her life, believed in at least three certainties: 1)She will always be a better firebender than Zuko. 2)Firelord Ozai will always favor her. 3)Mai and Ty Lee will always obey her. The Boiling Rock Part II removes the third certainty and causes her sanity to slowly unravel. Mai and Ty Lee's betrayal had proven that Azula was mistaken about them. It stands to reason that this incident threw into question every other certainty that Azula believed in and resulted in her doubting and second-guessing herself for the rest of the series. If Azula was wrong about Mai and Ty Lee then what else was she wrong about? Azula's miscalculation proved to be too damaging for her psyche to handle and what started as a momentary loss of composure (The Boiling Rock) led to increasingly erratic behavior (The Southern Raiders) and eventually full-blown psychosis (Sozin's Comet).
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Dec 31, 2014 01:05
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It's the middle part that gets me. There's almost no build up or ground covered between "losing her composure" (fair enough, I found that believable when I watched it) and full on paranoid delusions and hallucinations. Other than one scene in Southern Raiders where she's only behaving a tiny bit different than normal, if you stretch it.
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Dec 31, 2014 01:09
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The Sharmat posted:It's the middle part that gets me. The Phoenix King posted:Azula: Sorry I'm late, Father. Good palanquin bearers are so hard to come by these days. So, is everything ready for our departure? Ozai then placates Azula by offering her the, now worthless, title of Firelord while he crowns himself Phoenix King. Azula is momentarily reassured by this, but starts to doubt another long-held assumption. Lady Gagazula posted:2)Firelord Ozai will always favor her. If she were truly favored, then Ozai would have insisted that she join him to carry out their plan which was originally Azula's plan in the first place. This exchange between father and daughter causes Azula's mental state to deteriorate even further which then leads to paranoid delusions and ultimately hallucinations.
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Dec 31, 2014 02:11
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I'm sorry, it's just too much too soon. That's really something they should have threaded through the whole season. Like, when Ozai is actually favoring Zuko after his return from exile or something. Which didn't seem to bother Azula at all.
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Dec 31, 2014 02:21
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The Sharmat posted:I'm sorry, it's just too much too soon. That's really something they should have threaded through the whole season. Like, when Ozai is actually favoring Zuko after his return from exile or something. Which didn't seem to bother Azula at all. It doesn't bother her because she holds all the cards at that point. At any moment, she could "out" Zuko's failure.
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Dec 31, 2014 02:23
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DoctorWhat posted:It doesn't bother her because she holds all the cards at that point. At any moment, she could "out" Zuko's failure. Yeah that's what a cold, manipulative, mentally balanced Azula would do. But that's not who Azula is, as of the last few episodes. I find it hard to reconcile her being this calculating and this fragile at the same time. I get what they were going for, really, and I'm not adverse to the idea. I just don't think they pulled it off as well as they could have.
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Dec 31, 2014 02:26
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The Sharmat posted:I'm sorry, it's just too much too soon. That's really something they should have threaded through the whole season. Like, when Ozai is actually favoring Zuko after his return from exile or something. Which didn't seem to bother Azula at all. I have never seen a single scene with Azula where I thought "now there's a healthy well-adjusted young girl" or "yup, that person definitely doesn't have serious mental wellness issues". From the word go it's heavily implied that despite being hyper competent at throwing around fire, Azula is batshit.
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Dec 31, 2014 02:27
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The Sharmat posted:Yeah that's what a cold, manipulative, mentally balanced Azula would do. But that's not who Azula is, as of the last few episodes. I find it hard to reconcile her being this calculating and this fragile at the same time. Lots of people build up colder, manipulative personas and behaviors in order to protect themselves from their own insecurities.
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Dec 31, 2014 02:29
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The Sharmat posted:Yeah that's what a cold, manipulative, mentally balanced Azula would do. But that's not who Azula is, as of the last few episodes. You think that kind of behavior sounds like someone who is mentally balanced? I'd say "cold, manipulative, and mentally balanced" is a bit of an oxymoron.
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Dec 31, 2014 02:34
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420 Gank Mid posted:I have never seen a single scene with Azula where I thought "now there's a healthy well-adjusted young girl" or "yup, that person definitely doesn't have serious mental wellness issues". From the word go it's heavily implied that despite being hyper competent at throwing around fire, Azula is batshit. It's not that she's batshit. Yeah, they tell us that all the time (though they don't really show it until near the end). It's the way in which she's batshit seems to vary depending on the needs of the plot. That and the catalyst is apparently the betrayal of two people that I never thought she trusted in the first place. I mean she threatened Ty Lee into working for her in the first place. Why did this emotionally shatter her? Oh well, apparently I was pretty alone in having a problem with this.
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Dec 31, 2014 02:34
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The Sharmat posted:It's not that she's batshit. Yeah, they tell us that all the time (though they don't really show it until near the end). It's the way in which she's batshit seems to vary depending on the needs of the plot. That and the catalyst is apparently the betrayal of two people that I never thought she trusted in the first place. I mean she threatened Ty Lee into working for her in the first place. Why did this emotionally shatter her? Because she also achieves her life goal (becoming Fire Lord) in a way that is really sudden and hollow, so she suddenly gets a lot of pressure pushed onto her while knowing that it's not meaningful at all.
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Dec 31, 2014 02:36
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The Sharmat posted:Oh well, apparently I was pretty alone in having a problem with this. I agree with you. There are degrees of batshit and her craziness before the ending was very different from the one in the last couple of episodes.
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Dec 31, 2014 02:38
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It didn't even really bother me that much, because Grey Delisle sold the hell out of it. It was just all a bit too fast and convenient for me. It lead to some good scenes and I excused it because of that. Zuko vs. Azula is basically the best part of the entire finale. I just think it could have been done better than it was.
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Dec 31, 2014 02:42
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DoctorWhat posted:Lots of people build up colder, manipulative personas and behaviors in order to protect themselves from their own insecurities. Are we talking about Azula or Kuvira here? 
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Dec 31, 2014 02:45
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DoctorWhat posted:Lots of people build up colder, manipulative personas and behaviors in order to protect themselves from their own insecurities. The Beach posted:Azula: I could sit here and complain how our mom liked Zuko more than me, but I don't really care. Azula always lies.
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Dec 31, 2014 02:50
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I was pretty disappointed to find out that season 3 of Korra only has commentaries for 9 episodes 
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Dec 31, 2014 03:01
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People who are high powered sociopaths are usually also like just one step away from crumbling into an insane mess
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Dec 31, 2014 03:06
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The Sharmat posted:...That and the catalyst is apparently the betrayal of two people that I never thought she trusted in the first place. Azula's relationship with Mai and Ty Lee was never about trust. It was about using fear to control people. quote:Why did this emotionally shatter her? Because Azula was so convinced that her ability to control them was absolute that the mere possibility of betrayal or defiance never even entered her mind. Once reality set in Azula was unable to properly recover before the rest of her world started to fall apart.
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Dec 31, 2014 03:08
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Big Anime Fan Here posted:People who are high powered sociopaths are usually also like just one step away from crumbling into an insane mess
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Dec 31, 2014 03:08
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The Avatar State posted:(Cut to Azula's battle ship and her lightning bending practice. The sun is setting in the background. Azula stands on the deck and brings her arms down in front of her. Cut to two old women watching from the top of the stairs. Azula swings an arm around, electricity sparking from her left hand. She brings it around in a circle, then begins to mimic the motion with her right hand, electricity shooting from her index and middle fingers. She brings her fingers together, and then lunges forward, launching a lightning bolt from her left hand. The lightning arcs over the edge of the ship. Cut to in front of Azula, her fingers smoking and a single strand of hair dangling in front of her face. Cut to the old women on the stairs.)
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Dec 31, 2014 03:12
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Azula's psychosis is pretty blatant early on. She's a codependent teenage girl whose tough persona is a house of cards. She receives validation from everyone around her, being talented nobility, and when that validation gets ripped away from her, its the breeze that blows it all down. All of her paranoid suspicions can't be allayed any longer. You could describe Azula as a ceramic knife, whereas Zuko is made of steel. Ceramic knives can make precise cuts, are harder and stronger, and keep their edge, and good looks, for years without sharpening. But a ceramic knife will break where a steel knife will persevere. Sometimes all it takes is a single drop and ceramic material will shatter. That's how I view Azula. Zuko went through trauma and hardship, and while he'll never be as hard or strong as Azula at her peak, that single trauma that she experienced was enough to break her. It might seem abrupt but it really wasn't.
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Dec 31, 2014 03:18
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Whoa, I hadn't even noticed that one before. And considering her breakdown, yeah, that's foreshadowing alright.
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Dec 31, 2014 03:23
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Our introduction to Azula includes: 1. Lying to family to get them imprisoned 2. Obsession with perfect 3. Threatening to kill a naval officer for heeding the tides Sane is... not the word for Azula.
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Dec 31, 2014 03:25
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Je suis fatigue posted:I was pretty disappointed to find out that season 3 of Korra only has commentaries for 9 episodes That might be a misprint on the box, because I thought I saw commentaries for each episode in the bonus sections on the discs. No actors on commentary for the second season in a row, though
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Dec 31, 2014 03:57
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Je suis fatigue posted:I was pretty disappointed to find out that season 3 of Korra only has commentaries for 9 episodes
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Dec 31, 2014 04:12
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The Sharmat posted:That and the catalyst is apparently the betrayal of two people that I never thought she trusted in the first place. I mean she threatened Ty Lee into working for her in the first place. Why did this emotionally shatter her? It's less a matter of loyalty so much as a matter of crumbled authority. Her projection of herself as intimidating (and thus justifying her mother as weak as opposed to Azula being monstrous) suffered a severe reality check when people began acting independently and unafraid of the repercussions of disobedience. All she had was people's fear of her. Without that, what is she? Her father's selected heir, but when her father decided to be his own heir, it left her with nothing. Speaking of, I saw the episode where Zuko convinces Team Avatar to let him join, and while I greatly enjoy LoK and roll my eyes at the idea that ATLA is television perfected, I can't think of a single character I care about on par with Toph or Zuko. There never was much of a redemption arc in LoK, it was just murder-suicides and evolved into Satans and imprisonments and reality checks that didn't lead to changed sides, and okay, I guess there was Varrick, but it didn't have quite the drama of Zuko. There's something about that cast that was very likable, and LoK, while it had good storytelling and all that, never had necessarily the most interesting characters, it just had cool concepts like Red Lotus and Equalists and Ridiculous Nazi Mechas.
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Dec 31, 2014 04:22
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Probably Magic posted:Speaking of, I saw the episode where Zuko convinces Team Avatar to let him join, and while I greatly enjoy LoK and roll my eyes at the idea that ATLA is television perfected, Who says this? Most I've ever heard was that it's the best animated show that's been on television. Only time I've heard people call something the best TV show was when Breaking Bad was still coming out with new episodes.
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Dec 31, 2014 04:38
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There are some legit good moments in last airbender like when Aang goes into the Avatar State in anger to kill the guys who stole his bison and Kitarra has to calm him down and he's crying in the Avatar State
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Dec 31, 2014 04:43
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