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mabels big day posted:i believe matchmaking is based on global smash power, which anyone can achieve Did they ever say this? I thought this was someone's pet theory. Macaluso posted:Would I forsake poopfart Ganondorf for KING Dedede? Since when did Ganondorf stop being a King? sharrrk posted:i don't get sakurai I don't think anyone does.
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Dec 31, 2014 22:40
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Sire Oblivion posted:Since when did Ganondorf stop being a King? He's A king but he's not THE king
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Dec 31, 2014 22:46
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I can understand (I think?) what Sakurai means. Most fighting games are horrendously closed, any beginner that tries to play them will quickly find themselves unable to perform anything, get their rear end kicked by more experienced players and even the AI at low levels, get bored and leave. Fighting games as a whole are not a very open genre, there's a very steep learning curve and usually performing anything can be tough. "If I wanted to, I'm sure I could make a more hardcore Smash Brothers game. I could make the game speed much faster, increase the number of inputs...but then, beginners would no longer be able to play the game." is a quote that shows very well where Sakurai's coming from. Even a complete newbie to console games in general can quickly understand Smash basics and have fun, and I've proven this over and over again with my friends, most of which have no consoles themselves (or have bad taste and own Xbox 360s) and they not only quickly understood the game's basics, but immediatly got hooked, even when playing against someone more experimented and making mistakes. Losing that would destroy Super Smash Bros. The extreme ease of entry is, for me, one of the game's strongest points. Compare to Street Fighter, for instance, using the most basic characters in each (Ryu and Mario) as a reference: to shoot a fireball you need to press four buttons in succession in Street Fighter (down, down-forward, forward, punch), the timing will screw you over at first, and this is the most basic move. In SSB? Press B. Nothing more, just B. There's no way to get it wrong. An uppercut? I can't throw a Shoryuken consistently in Street Fighter (I admit, I'm bad at videogames) and yet I can very easy do an Up-B with Mario (and holy poo poo is it good now). "Smash needs to be a game that new players can play. Some level of technical skill may be necessary, but if just try and can move your character around a bit, that's the important bit." This is something SSB has always succeeded at, and something that, I think, very few if any other fighting games can honestly say about themselves.
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Dec 31, 2014 23:31
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So, a few months later, it turns out that I wanted to clear out the entire challenge board. Now I have to get all the custom headgear and all of the custom moves. Are there no efficient ways of farming these?
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Dec 31, 2014 23:41
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Casual players would not be affected in any way if controls were made more responsive like in Melee. Casual players would only benefit from more attempts to balance the cast, and would also benefit from some matchmaking system that kept them from veterans who've played since N64. I imagine most casual players also have the correct opinion that overly involved/active stages are more distracting and confusing than fun.
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Dec 31, 2014 23:42
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I don't think anyone has ever argued that Smash needs more button inputs, but he seems particularly fixated on artificially capping skill disparity so people who lose won't feel like it's their fault they lost.
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Dec 31, 2014 23:42
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Blaze Dragon posted:I can understand (I think?) what Sakurai means. Most fighting games are horrendously closed, any beginner that tries to play them will quickly find themselves unable to perform anything, get their rear end kicked by more experienced players and even the AI at low levels, get bored and leave. Fighting games as a whole are not a very open genre, there's a very steep learning curve and usually performing anything can be tough. Smash is a great and interesting new kind of fighting game because it focuses much more on movement options than close-in fighting (which requires advanced knowledge of moves' particular properties and combos), and it would be absolutely welcomed by the fighting game community and your hardcore EVO-dreamer types. The fact that it has such vaster options for positioning - something that everyone can instantly ascertain by just looking at the screen - is what makes it more accessible to new people, and that's not a bad thing at all. As a matter of fact, accessibility is why fighting game players tend to like it so much. So what I'm trying to say here is that nobody is arguing that Smash is "too simple" or anything, because that's what makes it great. The problem is that Sakurai seems to be in this mindset that aiding the competitive side of play will harm the casual side of play, and vice-versa, when in reality the exact opposite is true. They compliment each other, and that's why Melee is so beloved. Brawl isn't even good as a casual game because "solutions" like tripping designed to wreck competitive play because their scorched-earth policy wind up also making casual play worse. Casual players don't like the fact that there's always a chance that the controls will be wrestled out of your hands for a second or two at random. Casual players don't like the fact that certain characters had moves that could be efficiently spammed over and over again ("Stop spamming Thunder you loving turd!" "PIKAAAA! PIKAAAA! PIKAAAA!") etc. Smash 4 is a step in the right direction and its casual play is way more enjoyable than Brawl. I have no idea what its competitive play is going to be like. e: Or you could just read Reiley's post above me that says everything I just said in way less words. Pirate Jet fucked around with this message at 23:56 on Dec 31, 2014 |
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Dec 31, 2014 23:51
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I think he said that because he's sick to death of working on Smash atm and the thought of having to keep updating the game to address meta game concerns expressed by 1% of the player base is his personal vision of hell.
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Dec 31, 2014 23:56
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He should probably start working on passing the franchise on to someone else, then. I'd hate to work on the same game my whole life, too.
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Dec 31, 2014 23:57
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EightFlyingCars posted:I think he said that because he's sick to death of working on Smash atm and the thought of having to keep updating the game to address meta game concerns expressed by 1% of the player base is his personal vision of hell. Except he has paid staff to do that, and it's not particularly hard to speed up an attack or increase the amount of hitstun it has.
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Jan 1, 2015 00:03
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TheKingofSprings posted:Except he has paid staff to do that, and it's not particularly hard to speed up an attack or increase the amount of hitstun it has. He's the kind of perfectionist who does all that tweaking himself, by hand.
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Jan 1, 2015 00:11
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TheKingofSprings posted:Except he has paid staff to do that, and it's not particularly hard to speed up an attack or increase the amount of hitstun it has. Balancing a game is trickier than that since you can't look at single moves or even single characters in a vaccuum. Changing the hit stun of one attack can be all it takes to accidentally give a character an infinite, for example, and because fighting games have so many moving parts it can be difficult to see this until it's in the hands of players, and then you get to patch the game again and hope that doesn't lead to even more headaches.
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Jan 1, 2015 00:12
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ChaosArgate posted:He's the kind of perfectionist who does all that tweaking himself, by hand. Apparently the concept of second opinions don't exist to him, then
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Jan 1, 2015 00:13
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EightFlyingCars posted:Balancing a game is trickier than that since you can't look at single moves or even single characters in a vaccuum. He did essentially just that with Lucina though, only balancing her relative to Marth and nobody else.
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Jan 1, 2015 00:14
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Blaze Dragon posted:I can understand (I think?) what Sakurai means. Most fighting games are horrendously closed, any beginner that tries to play them will quickly find themselves unable to perform anything, get their rear end kicked by more experienced players and even the AI at low levels, get bored and leave. Fighting games as a whole are not a very open genre, there's a very steep learning curve and usually performing anything can be tough. All this because Sega decided to turn Sonic's arms blue. Crazy world we live in.
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Jan 1, 2015 00:26
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TheKingofSprings posted:He did essentially just that with Lucina though, only balancing her relative to Marth and nobody else. I'm specifically talking about changing the game after the fact, clones are kinda their own thing.
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Jan 1, 2015 00:34
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Anyone get a USB ethernet adapter for Smash? Would it be worth it even with a solid WiFi connection?
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Jan 1, 2015 00:57
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alright I'm off work so how bout that playing smash thing
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Jan 1, 2015 01:06
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How the gently caress do you fight Sonic? Holy poo poo.
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Jan 1, 2015 01:48
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Waverhouse posted:Casual players would only benefit from more attempts to balance the cast, and would also benefit from some matchmaking system that kept them from veterans who've played since N64. I feel like competitive (1v1) balance is different from group smashing balance. Like, Ness has traditionally been a weak character in 1v1 play but I've always found him competent in group play where he can sneak up on people concentrating on one another with PK Thunder 2. Also (to continue to use Ness as an example since I'm a sperglord who only plays one character) Ness's super smash (especially in Brawl) is super powerful, to bring him up to the level of other characters for 1v1 would make him a complete monster in group play assuming a smash ball is available. I'd like to see the series focus a bit more on competitive play I just feel like it is important to point out that balancing between group/item/1v1 play is hard (impossible?) and the strengths & weaknesses each character has for each different style of play is what makes Smash fun to me. Also god dammit Nintendo, create a proper loving match making system online play is ridiculous right now.
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Jan 1, 2015 01:57
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Glimm posted:I feel like competitive (1v1) balance is different from group smashing balance. Like, Ness has traditionally been a weak character in 1v1 play but I've always found him competent in group play where he can sneak up on people concentrating on one another with PK Thunder 2. Also (to continue to use Ness as an example since I'm a sperglord who only plays one character) Ness's super smash (especially in Brawl) is super powerful, to bring him up to the level of other characters for 1v1 would make him a complete monster in group play assuming a smash ball is available. Ness' final smash is really easy to dodge in that game dude. And the 4th best character (Falco) competitively had the best final smash, and Wario who was good as well comes in at a close second.
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Jan 1, 2015 02:20
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Just balance around 1v1. If group smashing suffers because of it (I fail to see how that would be the case but lets assume) then who cares? 4 man free for alls are the default mode for the casual crowd (the ones who would care least about total balance), and competitive 2v2 has always been more a side show than a main attraction for the competitive set.
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Jan 1, 2015 02:54
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Slur posted:So, a few months later, it turns out that I wanted to clear out the entire challenge board. The moves can be farmed through Trophy Rush.
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Jan 1, 2015 03:10
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SilverSupernova posted:The moves can be farmed through Trophy Rush. Is there a higher chance to get specific moves for a character if I play as them during trophy rush? EDIT: Seems slower if you ask me. 3 wrenches per go seems like it's getting me nowhere. Slur fucked around with this message at 04:48 on Jan 1, 2015 |
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Jan 1, 2015 03:56
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I think there's beautiful irony in the fact that Sakurai has tried to balance the game casually for the past two iterations and both of them have had characters that are vastly more problematic and broken than any of Melee's characters, spacies included. Brawl MK and now Diddy are so game-ruiningly problematic that even my non-competitive smash friends complain about them all the time. I can wavedash around, beat the everliving poo poo out of my friends in Melee and it's still their fault if they lose, but if I choose Diddy in Smash 4, man, what a broken character, too op please nerf. Sakurai has a record of saying really weird things that are like, blatantly untrue or even contradict things he's said in previous interviews, so the stuff he says at this point doesn't even surprise me. It's like listening to an alien try to explain human culture, it just doesn't work very well.
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Jan 1, 2015 03:57
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diddy kong is not game-ruiningly problematic or even close to brawl meta knight
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Jan 1, 2015 04:08
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I think smash brothers is really good the way it is right now, at this moment in smash 4. This fixation on whether or not the game is really competitive and whether sakurai Himself will balance the game in the future by His own hands in the future is kind of silly.
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Jan 1, 2015 04:17
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Goddamn Little Mac players are stupid
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Jan 1, 2015 04:53
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Macaluso posted:Goddamn Little Mac players are stupid Little Mac is a newbie character. Fun and gives off lots of combos but man that recovery is just garbage which makes him easy to play against. Also, there's something to be said about catering to casuals. I've never been much of a fighting fan sans a bout of Soul Calibur but man I love Smash Bros because it's easy to pick up and I don't have to learn a bunch of moves for each characters, since the move set is the same, A for regulars, B for specials, R for throws, etc.
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Jan 1, 2015 05:28
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seiferguy posted:Little Mac is a newbie character. Fun and gives off lots of combos but man that recovery is just garbage which makes him easy to play against. I dunno. I've seen people say this, but I feel like Little Mac's awful recovery makes him a pretty bad character for a newbie to get used to, if you want to get used to the game mechanics. I think Kirby is a really good character for new players to get used to, and then experiment from there. I would've suggested Mario too, but I think his cape and FLUDD is kind of weird for new players to use. Either way, if I was playing a new player (FG is anonymous so) I wouldn't play dirty but when someone loses with a character then switches to Little Mac I roll my eyes and do what I never do and sit on the edge while they come to me. Then just throw them off the side (or let them do that themselves). It's amazing how many players fall for it
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Jan 1, 2015 05:35
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I have never been into competitive Melee, so I'm not sure exactly what makes that so much better than the other games. However I do feel like smash 4 has hit a pretty good balance between making it fun for newbies but still allowing room for substantial skill growth. There aren't any really obvious attempts to narrow the skill gap with tripping & whatnot, at least none that are worked into the game's core mechanics. On for glory I still see pretty much all the characters used and I can never be really be sure what characters I can or can't win against, because they're all strong when in skilled hands. On the other hand, in regular play there does seem to be a lot more instant-kill weapons and items now. There's the beetle, the wind-pot, the baseball bat, that giant stone bat, bob-bombs (if you accidentally step on a walking one), smash balls, and the 3-part laser gun and the dragoon too. These, do seem to be very focused towards evening the playing field between skilled and unskilled players. Except for maybe the baseball bat since it has a very obvious and long wind-up. And it always seems like there's at least one of these items on the field at all times. Plus there's the usual issues with stage-hazards that we've been over before. I think for the most part, at least at the game's core it's hit a pretty happy medium between pro and casual play.
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Jan 1, 2015 05:36
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Little Mac isn't a newbie character, he's just perceived by newbies as their ticket to victory, which is not the same thing.
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Jan 1, 2015 05:37
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Waverhouse posted:Just balance around 1v1. If group smashing suffers because of it (I fail to see how that would be the case but lets assume) then who cares? 4 man free for alls are the default mode for the casual crowd (the ones who would care least about total balance), and competitive 2v2 has always been more a side show than a main attraction for the competitive set. Yeah this makes sense.
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Jan 1, 2015 05:55
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Davinci posted:On the other hand, in regular play there does seem to be a lot more instant-kill weapons and items now. There's the beetle, the wind-pot, the baseball bat, that giant stone bat, bob-bombs (if you accidentally step on a walking one), smash balls, and the 3-part laser gun and the dragoon too. These, do seem to be very focused towards evening the playing field between skilled and unskilled players. Except for maybe the baseball bat since it has a very obvious and long wind-up. And it always seems like there's at least one of these items on the field at all times. I've always kinda felt that a lot of really powerful items can be kinda unfriendly towards new players. Too much "I have no idea what's happening and oh now I'm dead" when you're making GBS threads out massive explosions and screen-clearing Pokemon all the time. I just got back from visiting with the family for Christmas and while Mario Kart was a big hit, nobody really wanted to touch Smash because their past experiences with the franchise were too chaotic.
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Jan 1, 2015 06:42
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Yeah, over Christmas I was playing the game with some folks who weren't so familiar with it, and we quickly found that since I knew what each item did and they didn't, it slanted the matches further instead of evening them out.
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Jan 1, 2015 06:44
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Waverhouse posted:I imagine most casual players also have the correct opinion that overly involved/active stages are more distracting and confusing than fun. lmao no actually those stages are cool and fun as well
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Jan 1, 2015 07:19
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You gotta ease people in, avoid that sensory overload. Teach them the controls on Battlefield, then give them a showcase stage with a simple design like Lylat Cruise, take them through the moderately active stages like Mushroom Kingdom U and Skyloft, then when they're nice and settled that's when you select Orbital Gate.
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Jan 1, 2015 07:26
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I think the thing that makes Smash accessible is the simple, uniform inputs across all characters. It's not that the game needs to be super complex, but with Brawl the game got put in a place where defense has an edge so for many character it's wiser to just sit and wait to punish than to try approaching. While 4 has fixed some of the (notably all of the stupid stalling you can do via ledge mechanics), it still feels like a lot of defensive maneuvers are a bit too powerful. I wouldn't even say they're broken, but they just put the game in a place where it's too slow and could be uninteresting to watch. Two-stock matches are already becoming the norm in 4, and I really hope the game is fast enough so people don't contemplate one-stock matches like Brawl.
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Jan 1, 2015 09:59
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seiferguy posted:Also, there's something to be said about catering to casuals. I've never been much of a fighting fan sans a bout of Soul Calibur but man I love Smash Bros because it's easy to pick up and I don't have to learn a bunch of moves for each characters, since the move set is the same, A for regulars, B for specials, R for throws, etc. Pretty much everyone just said that Smash is great for having simple controls, but that doesn't mean it's an excuse for the game being poorly balanced. Poor competitive play can also affect casual play. Not even friends drinking beer in four-player free-for-alls like that guy who picks Diddy Kong over and over again for easy wins.
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Jan 1, 2015 14:41
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This game is very well balanced considering there are like 50 characters
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Jan 1, 2015 15:55
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