A return of Fascism in Europe?

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > A return of Fascism in Europe?

A Buttery Pastry: Sep 4, 2011; Delicious and Informative!

Benito Hitlerstalin posted:

I take it he means influx, per year.

Nope, total number of refugees. That said, it might not be the most useful/easily compared statistic? Unless people retain their refugee status forever in every country, a high throughput (refugee-to-regular citizen status) might hide the number of refugees taken in, while keeping them in camps but never doing anything more could produce impressive numbers.

Cat Mattress posted:

Thing is the differences do not actually disappear. Much to the contrary, modern technology and networking allow them to linger on much longer than before, because you can get your community news from your satellite TV, you only visit community social networks on the Internet, and that helps you make sure you only meet other people from the community. No need to intermingle with the decadent natives or the disgusting other communities.

Also of note: America has an advantage here when it comes to assimilation. America's cultural dominance is great enough that it's practically assimilating other countries, while its cultural output drowns out what meager offerings smaller countries can produce. Doesn't even require one to specifically avoid the cultural output of your adoptive state when America is responsible for a significant majority of the programming, and other foreign countries take another slice. Not that TV and movies are synonymous with integration, but it probably is a tad easier to be a bit laissez-faire about this poo poo when you're a superpower in every category.

computer parts posted:

Except that traditionally the immigrating population *doesn't* necessarily want to preserve their entire old way of life. If they did, they wouldn't have wanted to move in the first place!

Traditionally and presently doesn't have to be the same. People fleeing ethnic cleansing or general oppression might be moving specifically to preserve their old way of life.

Cat Mattress posted:

The thing is that the issues caused by immigration are not trivially solved nor wisely ignored.

Yep. Ignoring these issues just leads to the far right coming in and acting like they have the solution, at a point where people are willing to listen to pretty much anyone who acknowledges they exist. It would have been much better if someone had dared to publicly question the wisdom of former integration policies in a productive manner, before the far right got a hold. Like, the politicians should have realized far earlier that the counter-integration policies they maintained early on, when immigrants were still called guest workers, weren't actually going to make sure they went back home again, and thus needed to be replaced by integration policies instead of just closing their eyes and ears until the far right took 10% of the electorate. Just because you acknowledge that there have been some failures in immigration policy does not mean you have to automatically go and blame the immigrants after all.

# ? Nov 24, 2014 18:44

Adbot: ADBOT LOVES YOU

# ? May 27, 2024 15:57

Cake Smashing Boob: Nov 5, 2008; I support black genocide

A Buttery Pastry posted:

Nope, total number of refugees. That said, it might not be the most useful/easily compared statistic? Unless people retain their refugee status forever in every country, a high throughput (refugee-to-regular citizen status) might hide the number of refugees taken in, while keeping them in camps but never doing anything more could produce impressive numbers.

The pertinent point of my post was what they came as, though, not so much what status they hold at the moment.

e: had they come as workforce/labor immigrants (with prerequisite Swedish demand), I expect their effects on the economy would have been a much more positive one.

That said, I'm no economist, so what the gently caress do I know.

Also, to tie this somewhat more directly to the subject of the thread:

The bourgeois solution to this problem � lowering the �barriers of entry into the workforce� (i.e. slashing wages and job security) to give more immigrants a chance at gainful employment � is about as palatable to the electorate as one can expect. Every time they air this idea, they're basically giving SD a shot at an open goal. �The bourgeoisie wants to lower your wages to accommodate Johnny Foreigner!�, and so on.

This is also part and parcel of the problems affecting the left, I feel. Where the right falls back on FYGM, and the populists turn everything into �fags/immigrants vs. regular [nationality] working man�, all the left can offer is �it's complicated� - which, while correct and sensible, plays like loving poo poo to the electorate.

Cake Smashing Boob fucked around with this message at 23:46 on Nov 24, 2014

# ? Nov 24, 2014 19:26

A Buttery Pastry: Sep 4, 2011; Delicious and Informative!

Benito Hitlerstalin posted:

The pertinent point of my post was what they came as, though, not so much what status they hold at the moment.

e: had they come as workforce/labor immigrants (with prerequisite Swedish demand), I expect their effects on the economy would have been a much more positive one.

I realize that, which is why I'm saying current status might not be that useful. Status on arrival plus education level is probably the most useful in terms of judging the economic impact of immigrants, though I'm not having much luck finding statistics on that.

Benito Hitlerstalin posted:

The bourgeois solution to this problem � lowering the �barriers of entry into the workforce� (i.e. slashing wages and job security) to give more immigrants a chance at gainful employment � is about as palatable to the electorate as one can expect. Every time they air this idea, they're basically giving SD a shot at an open goal. �The bourgeoisie wants to lower your wages to accommodate Johnny Foreigner!�, and so on.

This is also part and parcel of the problems affecting the left, I feel. Where the right falls back on FYGM, the populists turn everything into �fags/immigrants vs. regular [nationality] working man�, all the left can offer is �it's complicated� - which, while correct and sensible, plays like loving poo poo to the electorate.

There is always "The establishment vs. the people" as a leftist position. Present it as an issue of gross mismanagement on the part of the centrist liberals and social-democrats, who seem to offer nothing but lowering standards of living for everyone but the rich as a solution to pretty much any problem, and attempt to portray immigrants as just another victim of this. It's not as simple as "loving Muslims!", but at least it's better than just remaining silent.

# ? Nov 24, 2014 21:38

Cat Mattress: Jul 14, 2012; by Cyrano4747

Apparently, massive unemployment isn't enough to create downward pressure on wages. To ensure that Europe gets plunged into a deflationary spiral, France is to freeze wages for three years.

In a period of recession, with a growth rate that remains firmly at or below 0%, it is vitally important to make sure that people get even less money to spend. Otherwise, you risk not succeeding in completely killing the economy.

What's that, people are so fed up they end up voting for fascist parties? How is that even possible?

# ? Nov 24, 2014 22:48

technotronic: Sep 7, 2014

computer parts posted:

So why are refugees in Sweden self segregating?

(They're not)

I'm not from Sweden and I don't know much about their situation.

A Buttery Pastry posted:

I realize that, which is why I'm saying current status might not be that useful. Status on arrival plus education level is probably the most useful in terms of judging the economic impact of immigrants, though I'm not having much luck finding statistics on that.

There is always "The establishment vs. the people" as a leftist position. Present it as an issue of gross mismanagement on the part of the centrist liberals and social-democrats, who seem to offer nothing but lowering standards of living for everyone but the rich as a solution to pretty much any problem, and attempt to portray immigrants as just another victim of this. It's not as simple as "loving Muslims!", but at least it's better than just remaining silent.

And also the "immigrants vs. racist" leftist position which when applied as a blanket statement (as it sometimes is in this thread) is in my opinion even worse than remaining silent.

# ? Nov 24, 2014 23:38

burnishedfume: Mar 8, 2011; You really are a louse...

Cat Mattress posted:

Apparently, massive unemployment isn't enough to create downward pressure on wages. To ensure that Europe gets plunged into a deflationary spiral, France is to freeze wages for three years.

In a period of recession, with a growth rate that remains firmly at or below 0%, it is vitally important to make sure that people get even less money to spend. Otherwise, you risk not succeeding in completely killing the economy.

What's that, people are so fed up they end up voting for fascist parties? How is that even possible?

I'd say you forgot to give Germany credit for helping create this plan but I at this point I'm pretty sure it's implied that any time a Euro nation starts doing something suicidally stupid, Germany is at least silently nodding its approval as that country's economy tanks.

# ? Nov 25, 2014 01:00

FinalGamer: Aug 30, 2012; So the mystic script says.

You'd think after everyone agrees that them Nazis were really bad and hosed things up a lot for Europe, that people would just remember to go "oh no that's bad like the Nazis let's not do that".

What a fool I was to think people couldn't be that stupid to loving forget, of course not. Great. Out of all the places in the world even, I really expected France to be better than this.

# ? Dec 30, 2014 23:35

Nektu: Jul 4, 2007; FUKKEN FUUUUUUCK; Cybernetic Crumb

FinalGamer posted:

You'd think after everyone agrees that them Nazis were really bad and hosed things up a lot for Europe, that people would just remember to go "oh no that's bad like the Nazis let's not do that".

What a fool I was to think people couldn't be that stupid to loving forget, of course not. Great. Out of all the places in the world even, I really expected France to be better than this.

Since when are "pro-Palestinian" attackers nazis?

# ? Dec 30, 2014 23:51

Hob_Gadling: Jul 6, 2007; by Jeffrey of YOSPOS; Grimey Drawer

Nektu posted:

Since when are "pro-Palestinian" attackers nazis?

It's' indirectly our fault anyway, because we supported Israel which bombed Palestinians who rioted in France.

# ? Dec 31, 2014 00:05

woke wedding drone: Jun 1, 2003; by exmarx; Fun Shoe

FinalGamer posted:

You'd think after everyone agrees that them Nazis were really bad and hosed things up a lot for Europe, that people would just remember to go "oh no that's bad like the Nazis let's not do that".

No you see, everybody else attacked the Nazis because they were controlled by the Jews.

# ? Dec 31, 2014 00:21

Doc Neutral: Jan 31, 2014

Another mosque burning in Sweden hopefully this poo poo doesn't turn into a trend even though I'm sceptical about it.

# ? Dec 31, 2014 00:28

Darth Walrus: Feb 13, 2012

How are the Front National on Israel these days? A surprising number of neo-Nazi groups have switched over to supporting the country and working with the Israeli far-right (no, really - there's nothing more bizarre than seeing Israeli Jews wave around blue-and-white placards with 'one people, one nation, one leader' written on them in Hebrew) now that Muslims are the cool new people to talk smack about, though there's still (obviously) a hefty dose of lingering anti-Semitism going around.

# ? Dec 31, 2014 04:29

icantfindaname: Jul 1, 2008

Darth Walrus posted:

How are the Front National on Israel these days? A surprising number of neo-Nazi groups have switched over to supporting the country and working with the Israeli far-right (no, really - there's nothing more bizarre than seeing Israeli Jews wave around blue-and-white placards with 'one people, one nation, one leader' written on them in Hebrew) now that Muslims are the cool new people to talk smack about, though there's still (obviously) a hefty dose of lingering anti-Semitism going around.

Richard Nixon famously thought American Jews (aka Eastern European Ashkenazi immigrants) were lying, greedy Communists by nature, while Israeli Jews were honorable and trustworthy allies against the Commies

Really American support for Israel is a bizarre artifact of the Cold War. 95% of the whitebread right wingers who love Israel don't like actual Jews in the US, at least the old New York City Eastern European type.

icantfindaname fucked around with this message at 05:12 on Dec 31, 2014

# ? Dec 31, 2014 05:09

Darth Walrus: Feb 13, 2012

icantfindaname posted:

Richard Nixon famously thought American Jews (aka Eastern European Ashkenazi immigrants) were lying, greedy Communists by nature, while Israeli Jews were honorable and trustworthy allies against the Commies

Really American support for Israel is a bizarre artifact of the Cold War. 95% of the whitebread right wingers who love Israel don't like actual Jews in the US, at least the old New York City Eastern European type.

I'm British, not American. A lot of our Nazis have been coming round to Israel since 9/11, which is why I ask.

# ? Dec 31, 2014 05:17

TheNakedFantastic: Sep 22, 2006; LITERAL WHITE SUPREMACIST

Maybe Europe should stop pretending like embracing US style multiculturalism and capitalism is going to save it.

# ? Dec 31, 2014 09:20

TheNakedFantastic: Sep 22, 2006; LITERAL WHITE SUPREMACIST

icantfindaname posted:

Richard Nixon famously thought American Jews (aka Eastern European Ashkenazi immigrants) were lying, greedy Communists by nature, while Israeli Jews were honorable and trustworthy allies against the Commies

Really American support for Israel is a bizarre artifact of the Cold War. 95% of the whitebread right wingers who love Israel don't like actual Jews in the US, at least the old New York City Eastern European type.

So Jewish Americans and the weirdo mish mash of right wing religious and imperialist interests support Israel because of the cold war?

# ? Dec 31, 2014 09:26

Ardennes: May 12, 2002

TheNakedFantastic posted:

So Jewish Americans and the weirdo mish mash of right wing religious and imperialist interests support Israel because of the cold war?

To point, then xenophobia helps out, especially after 2001.

# ? Dec 31, 2014 09:28

ufarn: May 30, 2009

nvm

# ? Dec 31, 2014 15:11

Miltank: Dec 27, 2009; by XyloJW

icantfindaname posted:

Richard Nixon famously thought American Jews (aka Eastern European Ashkenazi immigrants) were lying, greedy Communists by nature, while Israeli Jews were honorable and trustworthy allies against the Commies

Really American support for Israel is a bizarre artifact of the Cold War. 95% of the whitebread right wingers who love Israel don't like actual Jews in the US, at least the old New York City Eastern European type.

Nixon was a reactionary Quaker. American Evangelicals supported Israel for theological reasons which were partly a reaction to Cold War narratives and partly a continuation of established prophetic theology. Evangelicals held a doctrine of philosemitism, or esteem for the Jews as early as the late 17th early 18th century. Evangelical Christians even played a role in moderating US antisemitism during the thirties.

Even before Cold War fever Americans in general were more supportive of Israel than not because of humanitarian reasons as a reaction to the holocaust.

# ? Dec 31, 2014 15:30

ekuNNN: Nov 27, 2004; by Jeffrey of YOSPOS

TheNakedFantastic posted:

Maybe Europe should stop pretending like embracing US style multiculturalism and capitalism is going to save it.

What is US style multiculturalism according to you?

# ? Dec 31, 2014 15:52

Antwan3K: Mar 8, 2013

ekuNNN posted:

What is US style multiculturalism according to you?

Taco Bell

# ? Dec 31, 2014 16:21

burnishedfume: Mar 8, 2011; You really are a louse...

ekuNNN posted:

What is US style multiculturalism according to you?

Half the population saying racism is over because actual literal slavery doesn't exist, ergo repeal all measures to combat the effects of institutional racism?

# ? Dec 31, 2014 16:28

computer parts: Nov 18, 2010; PLEASE CLAP

DrProsek posted:

Half the population saying racism is over because actual literal slavery doesn't exist, ergo repeal all measures to combat the effects of institutional racism?

I guess in Europe it is more than half.

# ? Dec 31, 2014 16:33

KoldPT: Oct 9, 2012

TheNakedFantastic posted:

Maybe Europe should stop pretending like embracing US style multiculturalism and capitalism is going to save it.

Agreed, we need some form of... embracing national identities at the same time we implement socialist policies.

Maybe we could call it national socialism or something?

# ? Dec 31, 2014 16:37

TheNakedFantastic: Sep 22, 2006; LITERAL WHITE SUPREMACIST

ekuNNN posted:

What is US style multiculturalism according to you?

Large scale settlement of new population groups into a country where they are expected to adopt the host culture in part or whole.

# ? Dec 31, 2014 21:40

TheNakedFantastic: Sep 22, 2006; LITERAL WHITE SUPREMACIST

KoldPT posted:

Agreed, we need some form of... embracing national identities at the same time we implement socialist policies.

Maybe we could call it national socialism or something?

This sounds awesome!

# ? Dec 31, 2014 21:41

Captain_Maclaine: Sep 30, 2001; Every moment that I'm alive, I pray for death!

TheNakedFantastic posted:

This sounds awesome!

There's any number of problems it'd solve, in a definitive manner!

# ? Dec 31, 2014 21:47

Cat Mattress: Jul 14, 2012; by Cyrano4747

This kind of reminds me that happened once already; but it only happened after German chancellor Heinrich Br�ning promoted a policy of austerity that created deflation. Does it look like there are any looming threat of deflation in Europe right now? Or even a German chancellor promoting austerity?

# ? Dec 31, 2014 23:49

Bob le Moche: Jul 10, 2011; I AM A HORRIBLE TANKIE MORON
WHO LONGS TO SUCK CHAVISTA COCK !

I SUGGEST YOU IGNORE ANY POSTS MADE BY THIS PERSON ABOUT VENEZUELA, POLITICS, OR ANYTHING ACTUALLY !

(This title paid for by money stolen from PDVSA)

I don't know but the bolshevik threat seems to be gaining support in Spain and Greece maybe liberals need to support armed anti-communist militias for the sake of preserving rule of law

# ? Jan 1, 2015 01:28

Warcabbit: Apr 26, 2008; Wedge Regret

Captain_Maclaine posted:

There's any number of problems it'd solve, in a definitive manner!

Say what you want, that's an ethos!

# ? Jan 1, 2015 03:17

Anne Frank Funk: Nov 4, 2008

Cat Mattress posted:

Does it look like there are any looming threat of deflation in Europe right now?

There's 5 months of deflation in Poland of all places.

# ? Jan 2, 2015 14:23

woke wedding drone: Jun 1, 2003; by exmarx; Fun Shoe

Cat Mattress posted:

This kind of reminds me that happened once already; but it only happened after German chancellor Heinrich Br�ning promoted a policy of austerity that created deflation. Does it look like there are any looming threat of deflation in Europe right now? Or even a German chancellor promoting austerity?

Can German chancellors promote policies other than austerity? For the rest of Europe, I mean.

# ? Jan 2, 2015 14:43

ekuNNN: Nov 27, 2004; by Jeffrey of YOSPOS

TheNakedFantastic posted:

Large scale settlement of new population groups into a country where they are expected to adopt the host culture in part or whole.

And what would you like in place of that?

# ? Jan 2, 2015 18:13

Disinterested: Jun 29, 2011; You look like you're still raking it in. Still killing 'em?

SedanChair posted:

Can German chancellors promote policies other than austerity? For the rest of Europe, I mean.

German economics is about morality and orderliness as far as I have ever been able to work out.

# ? Jan 2, 2015 18:14

Nektu: Jul 4, 2007; FUKKEN FUUUUUUCK; Cybernetic Crumb

Disinterested posted:

German economics is about morality and orderliness as far as I have ever been able to work out.

Hahahaha.

Orderliness, yes

# ? Jan 2, 2015 20:10

Disinterested: Jun 29, 2011; You look like you're still raking it in. Still killing 'em?

Nektu posted:

Hahahaha.

Orderliness, yes

I didn't comment on the type of morality. I think it's a version of morality where frivolous eccentric poors who borrow money deserve to live an austere and stark life for a while as a gainful lesson.

# ? Jan 2, 2015 20:16