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My Imaginary GF posted:You exact payment from whomever claims sovreignty over the village which attacked you. Palestine is free to enter an agreement with Israel by which it renounces sovreignty over the territory in which American diplomats were attacked. You exact retribution on whatever group defied your authority. The quibblings of border tribes over who owns what patch of parched ground mean next to nothing, it was the angry young men of a specific tribal outpost that threw the stones. The stones, and the emotion behind their casting, are the issue at hand, not the search for some piddling indemnity. Your legalist mirage is the sort of airy-fairy foolishness that wrecks empires. You advocate weakness in the face of mere clients, people who should be coming to the seat of power on bended knee to beg for their subsidies and weapons shipments. Your advice is wrong-headed enough to convince me that you're arguing as an advocate for the client, not the hegemon, and the self-serving lies of your ilk should not be tolerated. A flogging, or the severing of a few of your outermost appendages, should serve as an adequate prelude to your deportation.
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Jan 4, 2015 07:33
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zeal posted:You exact retribution on whatever group defied your authority. The quibblings of border tribes over who owns what patch of parched ground mean next to nothing, it was the angry young men of a specific tribal outpost that threw the stones. The stones, and the emotion behind their casting, are the issue at hand, not the search for some piddling indemnity. Your legalist mirage is the sort of airy-fairy foolishness that wrecks empires. You advocate weakness in the face of mere clients, people who should be coming to the seat of power on bended knee to beg for their subsidies and weapons shipments. Your advice is wrong-headed enough to convince me that you're arguing as an advocate for the client, not the hegemon, and the self-serving lies of your ilk should not be tolerated. A flogging, or the severing of a few of your outermost appendages, should serve as an adequate prelude to your deportation. Nation states do not deal with villages, they deal with sovreigns. Here are the facts: Israel recognizes Palestine as sovreign over the territory where the attack occured. Palestine claims sovreignity over the territory in which the attack occured. The world recognizes Palestine as sovreign over the territory in which the attack occured. If Palestine is unwilling or unable to accept the responsibility for its recognized sovreignity, then Palestine should not exist as a sovreign entity.
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Jan 4, 2015 07:38
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My Imaginary GF posted:Nation states do not deal with villages, they deal with sovreigns. Here are the facts: Israel recognizes Palestine as sovreign over the territory where the attack occured. Palestine claims sovreignity over the territory in which the attack occured. The world recognizes Palestine as sovreign over the territory in which the attack occured. If Palestine is unwilling or unable to accept the responsibility for its recognized sovreignity, then Palestine should not exist as a sovreign entity. Empires deal in power, idiot, and the power of the American empire is no way augmented by letting the tribal auxiliaries of one of its less useful client states freely assault its representatives. Your argument is starting to press the bounds of mere advocacy and edge towards treason. Adjust your tack soon, or mere mutilation and exile may no longer be sufficient repercussions for this vile chatter.
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Jan 4, 2015 07:42
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zeal posted:Empires deal in power, idiot, and the power of the American empire is no way augmented by letting the tribal auxiliaries of one of its less useful client states freely assault its representatives. Your argument is starting to press the bounds of mere advocacy and edge towards treason. Adjust your tack soon, or mere mutilation and exile may no longer be sufficient repercussions for this vile chatter. Treason: Disagreeing with your definition of sovreign responsibility. Ok psycho, have fun being crazy and living in la-la land where no nation states exist.
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Jan 4, 2015 07:45
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My Imaginary GF posted:You exact payment from whomever claims sovreignty over the village which attacked you. Palestine is free to enter an agreement with Israel by which it renounces sovreignty over the territory in which American diplomats were attacked. Ah, but so long as we are playing the game of imperialist realpolitik, we must not be bound to a de jure view of the world, but a de facto one. And de facto, Palestine is a colony of Israel. They control what comes in, they control what goes out, and they collect taxes; therefore it is their land. Payment for this failure must therefore fall on the Israeli government.
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Jan 4, 2015 07:46
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Ratoslov posted:Ah, but so long as we are playing the game of imperialist realpolitik, we must not be bound to a de jure view of the world, but a de facto one. And de facto, Palestine is a colony of Israel. They control what comes in, they control what goes out, and they collect taxes; therefore it is their land. Payment for this failure must therefore fall on the Israeli government. If Palestine is a colony of Israel, and Israel has sovreign responsibility over the territory in which American diplomats were attacked, then Israel is free to do with its colonial subjects as it will. That territory should be enshrined as de jure Israeli territory, and any individuals who refuse to reach such accords are unlawful barriers to regional security. American policy knows how to deal with unlawful barriers. You misunderstand the essence of realpolitik: hypocracy. Whether its de jure or de facto, you go with whichever one is most convenient for your interests. And in this case, Palestinian sovreignty is an American interest. Pray American policy does not take further interests in Palestinian sovreignty. You wouldn't like how it looks. My Imaginary GF fucked around with this message at 07:52 on Jan 4, 2015 |
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Jan 4, 2015 07:50
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My Imaginary GF posted:Treason: Disagreeing with your definition of sovreign responsibility. Treason is conscious sabotage of the interests and welfare of the empire. The basis for your argument supports neither of those ends: you advocate only to use this occasion to strengthen a client state's hold on poorly integrated vassal polities at the explicit expense of the empire's prestige. You are a liar, and a traitor. Given that your fingers and tongue are the chief sources of your sedition, it now seems appropriate that these be removed before you are expelled from the empire's territory. Perhaps you could be dumped in the ruins of Adei Ad once the bombs and shock troops have extracted compliance from those unruly borderers. Or better yet, you could be dispatched with the first round of excised appendages from the client's elite hostages, should their leadership balk at our just retribution. A few fingers strung on a thong around your neck before you're dumped before an Israeli consulate should send the appropriate message, both to the client state's political leadership and to others who would take the side of mere clients against their own hegemon.
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Jan 4, 2015 07:58
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zeal posted:Treason is conscious sabotage of the interests and welfare of the empire. The basis for your argument supports neither of those ends: you advocate only to use this occasion to strengthen a client state's hold on poorly integrated vassal polities at the explicit expense of the empire's prestige. You are a liar, and a traitor. Given that your fingers and tongue are the chief sources of your sedition, it now seems appropriate that these be removed before you are expelled from the empire's territory. Perhaps you could be dumped in the ruins of Adei Ad once the bombs and shock troops have extracted compliance from those unruly borderers. Or better yet, you could be dispatched with the first round of excised appendages from the client's elite hostages, should their leadership balk at our just retribution. A few fingers strung on a thong around your neck before you're dumped before an Israeli consulate should send the appropriate message, both to the client state's political leadership and to others who would take the side of mere clients against their own hegemon. And how are the interests of America determined? With money first, morals second. It's that secondary sense of morality which separates American interests from Chinese interests: American interests are accountable to the American people. If Palestinians wish their interests to be advocated for in America, there's a system for that. What you advocate? Anarchy. The logic behind your assertions are the same as those which ISIL and Hamas use. Go ahead and see how popular your opinions are in America, it'd do you well to get laughed at and shamed in public.
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Jan 4, 2015 08:13
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My Imaginary GF posted:Nation states do not deal with villages, they deal with sovreigns. Here are the facts: Israel recognizes Palestine as sovreign over the territory where the attack occured. Palestine claims sovreignity over the territory in which the attack occured. The world recognizes Palestine as sovreign over the territory in which the attack occured. If Palestine is unwilling or unable to accept the responsibility for its recognized sovreignity, then Palestine should not exist as a sovreign entity. Yet all these bodies also recognize that Israel is using military force to prevent the Palestinians from protecting that sovereignty. Since the Palestinian security forces are prevented from entering or even approaching the settlements, the blame and responsibility for any incident in the settlements would rest on Israel, which not only fails to prevent people from illegally crossing its border into Palestine but also intentionally prevents Palestine from fortifying those same borders or expelling illegal entrants. Though, to be honest, I'm far more interested in the domestic Israeli reaction to this than I am in watching people get super furious at an obvious troll, which really isn't that interesting now that MIGF isn't even really bothering to hide it anymore. Talking about real news is way more interesting than watching people hurl wild hyperbole and dismissive insults back and forth for page after page. So, like I said, what's the reaction to this inside Israel? Everyone else has made their stance pretty clear - the US has issued a statement saying it's "deeply concerned" about the attack and spread it all over the news, the Palestinians are pointing to it as an example of settler brutality, settlers have followed it up with more violent attacks against Palestinians in that area and have called for the deportation of the American consulate staff, but how is this playing in Israel itself? The news sites aren't really making a big deal out of it, so I can't really get a read of any kind on it; I really expected more noise to be made about it considering the sheer tonedeafness of the settlers and the fact that this is election season. Of course, I'm sure no one wants to piss off the settlers too much, but this is basically the best situation there could possibly be for those who oppose the settlers; Adei Ad appears to be a tiny settlement particularly prone to violence which has thrown rocks at IDF soldiers, committed brutal "price tag" terrorism against its surroundings, and is already following it up with more attacks without showing the slightest whit of concern or regret for the diplomatic incident it's caused with Israel's biggest and best ally. Even if the news and the politicians are playing it cautiously while the situation develops, there's no way this isn't going to catch some wind in Israeli politics sooner or later, right?
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Jan 4, 2015 09:30
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Main Paineframe posted:Yet all these bodies also recognize that Israel is using military force to prevent the Palestinians from protecting that sovereignty. Since the Palestinian security forces are prevented from entering or even approaching the settlements, the blame and responsibility for any incident in the settlements would rest on Israel, which not only fails to prevent people from illegally crossing its border into Palestine but also intentionally prevents Palestine from fortifying those same borders or expelling illegal entrants. "Kill the Jews" is not an acceptable method of enforcing territorial claims. If Palestinians want Israel to be responsible for that territory, it is suggested that Palestinian negotiators settle the issue with Israel while formally renouncing all claims to that territory. Alternatively, they can open up representative government to Jews living in Palestine and grant those individuals Palestinian citizenship, with all the rights and responsibilities which ensue.
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Jan 4, 2015 09:34
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Now I feel bad about summoning MIGF, turns out his opinions are indeed somewhat treasonous but like a true racist he thinks that America needs to punish the Palestinians for poo poo Israeli settlers do just because.
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Jan 4, 2015 11:22
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Ain't no expansionist settlers going to accept Palestinian legal jurisdiction (especially if they can stay under Israeli protection with only rare consequences). I mean, I do like to daydream about a sudden amicable one-state solution, but half the reason we have a Palestine at all, or really an Israel at all, is Israel's feelings about having Israeli Jews under a majority-non-Jewish sovereign state.
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Jan 4, 2015 11:56
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zeal posted:Are you even pretending to advocate imperial realpolitik anymore? When a border tribe assaults your representatives you don't extract tribute from the next tribe over, you enact retribution on the source of aggression. Send a company of marines to corral and execute a fifth of Adei Ad's military-aged males and perhaps they'll think twice about throwing stones the next time agents of their ruling hegemon pass by the village. If the recalcitrant client state that backs the tribe makes a fuss, simply take hostages from among whatever members of the ruling class's extended families happen to be within easy reach. Make an example of a few dynasts' sons and daughters and they may learn the value of both loyalty and submission, and discipline their auxiliary tribes accordingly. I'm the one who advocates imperial realpolitik. He advocates the US basically being an Israeli vassal.
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Jan 4, 2015 12:17
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So by MIGF logic, if terrorists manage to plant a bomb in the US embassy in Tel Aviv, then US retaliations will be against Israel. Also by MIGF logic, the aftermath of 9/11 should have been the USA going to war against New York's airports.
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Jan 4, 2015 12:39
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Common misconception but actually his solution is always "blame an Arab".
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Jan 4, 2015 12:55
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To be fair, having unpopular groups as convenient scapegoats is a storied part of realpolitik. In any case, is Israel doing anything to justify the holding of tax money (in response to Palestine joining the ICC) to the international community? Has the government said anything at all on the topic?
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Jan 4, 2015 14:15
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My Imaginary GF posted:If Palestine is a colony of Israel, and Israel has sovreign responsibility over the territory in which American diplomats were attacked, then Israel is free to do with its colonial subjects as it will. That territory should be enshrined as de jure Israeli territory, and any individuals who refuse to reach such accords are unlawful barriers to regional security. OK this is getting old. You work at a Subway.
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Jan 4, 2015 16:55
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You know, I've just started to imagine MIGF as some sort of Turing Test programmed by AIPAC, its honestly the only way I can explain how posts like that some into being.
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Jan 4, 2015 17:11
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Lustful Man Hugs posted:To be fair, having unpopular groups as convenient scapegoats is a storied part of realpolitik. Yes, we've seen what "blame the Jews" resulted in, so is it really a good idea to try again, thinking the outcome will be different if the minority chosen to be the scapegoat is different?
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Jan 4, 2015 17:12
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Is anyone aware of any Israeli attacks on US forces other than the Liberty and this "settlers throwing rocks at US convoy" fuckery?
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Jan 4, 2015 17:19
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Tuckleberry posted:Is anyone aware of any Israeli attacks on US forces other than the Liberty and this "settlers throwing rocks at US convoy" fuckery? Do spying incidents count?
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Jan 4, 2015 17:23
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Oh I have a better one, does the summary execution of a US citizen aboard the Mavi Marmara count?
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Jan 4, 2015 17:23
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yes, yes e: i've fallen out of the I/P horseshit over the past few years, sorry e2: nevermind i'm gay ignore that question Tuckleberry fucked around with this message at 17:52 on Jan 4, 2015 |
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Jan 4, 2015 17:27
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SedanChair posted:OK this is getting old. You work at a Subway. lol
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Jan 4, 2015 17:55
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My Imaginary GF posted:Here are the facts: Israel recognizes Palestine as sovreign over the territory where the attack occured. quote:Palestine claims sovreignity over the territory in which the attack occured. The world recognizes Palestine as sovreign over the territory in which the attack occured. If Palestine is unwilling or unable to accept the responsibility for its recognized sovreignity, then Palestine should not exist as a sovreign entity. My Imaginary GF posted:If Palestine is a colony of Israel, and Israel has sovreign responsibility over the territory in which American diplomats were attacked, then Israel is free to do with its colonial subjects as it will. That territory should be enshrined as de jure Israeli territory, and any individuals who refuse to reach such accords are unlawful barriers to regional security. You could have just said "might makes right" instead of forcing out this verbal diarrhea. SedanChair posted:OK this is getting old. You work at a Subway. 
ANIME AKBAR fucked around with this message at 18:18 on Jan 4, 2015 |
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Jan 4, 2015 18:12
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Main Paineframe posted:Yet all these bodies also recognize that Israel is using military force to prevent the Palestinians from protecting that sovereignty. Since the Palestinian security forces are prevented from entering or even approaching the settlements, the blame and responsibility for any incident in the settlements would rest on Israel, which not only fails to prevent people from illegally crossing its border into Palestine but also intentionally prevents Palestine from fortifying those same borders or expelling illegal entrants. I don't see it covered in the main websites at all. It's yesterday's news. Instead a big deal seems to be mass irregularities in the Likud primaries, including some polling places not being counted, ballots disappearing from others, etc. The list I posted earlier may yet change. Lustful Man Hugs posted:In any case, is Israel doing anything to justify the holding of tax money (in response to Palestine joining the ICC) to the international community? Has the government said anything at all on the topic? They don't seem to feel like they need to explain it other than as reprisal for the Palestinians attempting to join the ICC. They are also threatening suing Palestinian leaders for terrorism.
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Jan 4, 2015 18:13
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Absurd Alhazred posted:They don't seem to feel like they need to explain it other than as reprisal for the Palestinians attempting to join the ICC. They are also threatening suing Palestinian leaders for terrorism. Yeah, I've seen this floated by a couple people as a potential retaliation - using universal jurisdiction to file war crime suits against Hamas leaders in European courts. Kinda ironic considering the reaction when Palestinian activists tried the same thing a couple of years back...
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Jan 4, 2015 18:16
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kustomkarkommando posted:Yeah, I've seen this floated by a couple people as a potential retaliation - using universal jurisdiction to file war crime suits against Hamas leaders in European courts. How could they do this, though, when they're not ICC signatories? In other news, Hadash, the Arab-Jewish communist front, ended up agreeing in a party conference (Hebrew) to authorize their delegates to work on a unity deal with the other Arab parties, subject to the condition that the rights of the Jewish representatives are conserved and that women aren't pushed out of the joint list.
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Jan 4, 2015 18:37
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Absurd Alhazred posted:How could they do this, though, when they're not ICC signatories? Several courts have adopted universal jurisdiction laws that allow them to prosecute non-nationals for war crimes committed in other countries, they've been a source of some controversy in the last decade or so and Palestinian advocacy groups tried initiating charges against IDF and government figures in Spain and the UK. Not sure how many countries still allow for universal jurisdiction in absentia though , I know Spain and Belgium tightened up their laws recently enough. I think Italy still allows it and maybe Germany as well? kustomkarkommando fucked around with this message at 19:23 on Jan 4, 2015 |
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Jan 4, 2015 19:21
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kustomkarkommando posted:Several courts have adopted universal jurisdiction laws that allow them to prosecute non-nationals for war crimes in other countries, they've been a source of some controversy in the last decade or so and Palestinian advocacy groups tried initiating charges against IDF and government figures in Spain and the UK. Not sure how many countries still allow for universal jurisdiction in absentia though , I know Spain and Belgium tightened up their laws recently enough. It's really kind of petulant and juvenile for Israel to threaten this, as they could very easily just break into these people's homes and put them in IDF jail, as they did to all those Hamas MP's. I'm starting to think that this is what an Israeli Hasbara brainstorming session looks like: 
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Jan 4, 2015 19:26
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Where's that video of that christian zionist girl having a full blown meltdown on tape cause her brother bought her one of Finkelstein's books or something, cause this thread needs it.
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Jan 4, 2015 19:57
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emanresu tnuocca posted:Where's that video of that christian zionist girl having a full blown meltdown on tape cause her brother bought her one of Finkelstein's books or something, cause this thread needs it. I'll second that. Sounds amazing.
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Jan 4, 2015 20:21
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I found links to the story but the video has been deleted and I can't find mirrors: http://972mag.com/watch-israel-is-not-an-apartheid-state-boo-hoo-hoo/31440/ apparently she's a 'Stand With Israel' shill.
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Jan 4, 2015 20:36
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emanresu tnuocca posted:I found links to the story but the video has been deleted and I can't find mirrors: http://972mag.com/watch-israel-is-not-an-apartheid-state-boo-hoo-hoo/31440/ She should sit down, take a load off, and just chilll...  (Also, is it just me or, while 972mag is sometimes informative, it's just too smug for comfort?)
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Jan 4, 2015 20:43
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Tuckleberry posted:Is anyone aware of any Israeli attacks on US forces other than the Liberty and this "settlers throwing rocks at US convoy" fuckery? The diplomats were apparently investigating at least in part because one of the people whose trees were damaged or uprooted was a United States citizen. I don't imagine the subsequent rock throwing will encourage the State Department to just pretend nothing happened.
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Jan 4, 2015 20:43
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emanresu tnuocca posted:Where's that video of that christian zionist girl having a full blown meltdown on tape cause her brother bought her one of Finkelstein's books or something, cause this thread needs it. Apparently it was a Ron Paul book... http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=e02_1325216789
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Jan 4, 2015 20:56
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kustomkarkommando posted:Apparently it was a Ron Paul book... Lack of verifying sources added to the list of reasons I'm not a fan. It's more a collection of blogs than a serious news source.
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Jan 4, 2015 21:00
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1337JiveTurkey posted:The diplomats were apparently investigating at least in part because one of the people whose trees were damaged or uprooted was a United States citizen. I don't imagine the subsequent rock throwing will encourage the State Department to just pretend nothing happened. Seems like as US citizens the best thing we can do to impact the situation is to move there.
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Jan 4, 2015 21:04
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Absurd Alhazred posted:Lack of verifying sources added to the list of reasons I'm not a fan. It's more a collection of blogs than a serious news source. Well, a collection of blogs is just what the site claims to be? And they did get the Ron Paul thing correctly, I didn't.
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Jan 4, 2015 21:25
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emanresu tnuocca posted:Well, a collection of blogs is just what the site claims to be? And they did get the Ron Paul thing correctly, I didn't. I guess you could say I am just as bad, then.  Yeah, I guess they are a collection of blogs. It's just people bring them up as serious sources, like they do with HuffPo. AND THEY SHOULDN'T! 
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Jan 4, 2015 21:27
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