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John has also pretty much told her that she told him to do this. And that there's some sort of timeline related shenanigans. Now if she thinks that's the truth or not isn't clear yet. But whatever effect the instructions Terezi is expecting to happen is probably happening. Though it wouldn't be surprising if John has to intercept some chat/dialog and replace himself for that.
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Jan 5, 2015 06:36
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Bobulus posted:I am secretly hoping that this leads to a complete crash and burn that John has to go back and undo. You know that one Halloween episode of The Simpsons where Homer accidentally creates a time machine from a broken toaster? Remember how he ended up back in prehistoric times and accidentally squishes a bug? This ends up changing the timeline in a horrific way, so Homer goes back and tries to undo what he's done. Except every time he goes back he keeps accidentally making tiny changes that have huge impacts on the future. This happens over and over; eventually he gets so fed up he just starts bashing everything in the past he can find with a baseball bat because gently caress time travel and gently caress causality:  I'm guessing that's how this is going to play out: John screaming and randomly zapping around as he beats everything he encounters with his hammer. Space Cadet Omoly fucked around with this message at 13:37 on Jan 18, 2015 |
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Jan 5, 2015 06:41
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So is John owning Terezi or is Terezi owning herself?
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Jan 5, 2015 06:43
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John fixing this plot point will fix the most frustrating thing about Terezi: her unwillingness to not be fixated on Vriska during the murderspree. It might have honestly been the most frustrating part of that whole part of the plot.
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Jan 5, 2015 06:46
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Terezi is using John to orchestrate owning herself.
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Jan 5, 2015 06:48
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John is a gigantic loving dork, that is all.
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Jan 5, 2015 07:04
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I'd prefer for this plan to succeed if only because I don't think "the kids come up with a plan to take control of their lives" has ever actually worked yet, ever.
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Jan 5, 2015 07:17
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Egbert all up in the vent with a face like "this is such a good idea!"
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Jan 5, 2015 07:33
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John's hiding in an air vent. From someone who sees through smell. Even given his breath-y anti-smell insmellivisibility power she's still probably wondering about that wierd stonk.
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Jan 5, 2015 07:37
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you hideous cock your retconning it wrogn
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Jan 5, 2015 07:52
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I am howling at laughter. John just rocketed up my favourite character chart.
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Jan 5, 2015 08:01
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Space Cadet Omoly posted:You know that one Halloween episode of The Simpsons where Homer accidentally creates a time machine from a broken toaster? Remember how he ended up back in prehistoric times and accidentally squishes a bug? This ends up changing the timeline in a horrific way, so Homer goes back and tries to undo what he's done. Except every time he goes back he keeps accidentally making tiny changes that have huge impacts on the future. This happens over and over; eventually he gets so fed up he just starts bashing everything in the past he can find with a baseball bat because gently caress time travel and gently caress causality: Surprise twist John is Lord English. Zoe posted:^^^the mysterious chalk message that said 'this is john btw' Yeah I'd bet my bottom boondollar the instructions were more than likely "CONV1NC3 M3 1T W4S G4MZ33" And it's John. So. Actual analysis time. I think what Terezi set out to do as Seer of Mind was to set things in motion in a way that would prove herself as Seer of Mind; i.e predicting the goofy twist John would put on it, and underestimating Terezi's sense of smell (he's probably not an idiot, and knows well enough to mask his scent with his Breath power, but he might not know she can smell that far out). So while this seems like Terezi just altering poo poo in the past to change the outcome, this might be her flexing her Seer of Mind powers to predict how Egbert is going to go about it and predicting this by sending him to points in time where his "unique" brand of half-assed over-heroing will actually solve the problem rather than making new ones. Classtoise fucked around with this message at 08:42 on Jan 5, 2015 |
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Jan 5, 2015 08:06
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Mimir posted:John's hiding in an air vent. From someone who sees through smell. Even given his breath-y anti-smell insmellivisibility power she's still probably wondering about that wierd stonk.  This panel was a prophecy. His hair is even black!
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Jan 5, 2015 08:31
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John you idiot! No embellishing!
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Jan 5, 2015 09:11
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John is pretty fantastic at this.
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Jan 5, 2015 09:38
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John should have been the Of Time kid because he's obviously the best there is at it.
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Jan 5, 2015 09:45
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Captain Oblivious posted:John should have been the Of Time kid because he's obviously the best there is at it. There'd be a way worse Dead John problem then a Dead Dave problem. John is the best character 
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Jan 5, 2015 09:50
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Captain Oblivious posted:John should have been the Of Time kid because he's obviously the best there is at it. One of my favorite john zapping around moments was when he appeared near dave and dave was immediately like "john, i have literally no idea what you are doing or how you are doing it but i know you are loving it up in a seriously major way". It didn't even take him a second.
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Jan 5, 2015 10:07
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As much as I'd like Vriskatime anew, it seems too obvious that Vriska will be retcon'd alive. Hussie rarely does the Stated Thing.
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Jan 5, 2015 10:51
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What he's going to tip her off to is the involvement of her quasi-future self. Which will, importantly, give her some inkling of what all her powers can actually do. It isn't just a matter of solving this crime - it's understanding the implications of the fact that she will come to regret what she would have thought on all the occasions when some dork in a windsock left her an enigmatic message. This won't be lost on herself.
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Jan 5, 2015 17:05
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Still definitely leaning toward Terezi not getting involved with Gamzee being a more important goal here than Vriska being resurrected.
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Jan 5, 2015 17:11
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Captain Oblivious posted:John should have been the Of Time kid because he's obviously the best there is at it. It kind of makes me think someone (or John) should ended up with a glitchy-rotating title like Jade's land before it was revealed. It just gives them all or randomized powers. Their outfit would also be an appropriately gltichy mess of colours. Basically the Onion Knight of Sburb.
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Jan 5, 2015 17:14
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Space Cadet Omoly posted:
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Jan 5, 2015 17:59
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I think it's possible Terezi might end up letting Vriska go fight Jack Noir. Vriska would die anyway, but John could just clear her pixiedust trail from behind her so no bad ramifications for the meteor, and Terezi wouldn't enter a cycle of self-loathing.
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Jan 5, 2015 18:40
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JT Jag posted:I think it's possible Terezi might end up letting Vriska go fight Jack Noir. Vriska would die anyway, but John could just clear her pixiedust trail from behind her so no bad ramifications for the meteor, and Terezi wouldn't enter a cycle of self-loathing. That's just kind of killing her by other means, and not an altogether Seer of Mind course of action, though. Recall that she's trying to engineer a situation where her past self actually lives up to her role here. She's aiming to set up a third choice besides "stay" or "go".
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Jan 5, 2015 18:48
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JT Jag posted:I think it's possible Terezi might end up letting Vriska go fight Jack Noir. Vriska would die anyway, but John could just clear her pixiedust trail from behind her so no bad ramifications for the meteor, and Terezi wouldn't enter a cycle of self-loathing.
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Jan 5, 2015 19:16
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paranoid randroid posted:That's just kind of killing her by other means, and not an altogether Seer of Mind course of action, though. No Terezi's problem was that it was either 'Terezi kills Vriska' or 'Everyone dies'. Both Terezi and Vriska knew that Vriska was going to cheat, and that 'stay' was never an option- it was always about Terezi being able to stop her. Terezi can't change Vriska's mind. The best she can hope for is that by altering past Terezi's approach that Vriska will be more willing to listen to reason and stay- but she can't bank on that. Maybe Vriska, at that stage in her life, cannot be talked down by any means and will always attempt to leave. In that case the best Terezi can do is minimize the damage, or to find a way that lets Vriska leave without putting the others at risk. Terezi can't be held responsible for Vriska being dumb, anymore than you could hold her responsible for Gamzee being insane, and even if Vriska dies (by Jack's hand or Terezi) she'll still be in a much better mental position going into the future. If it was purely about saving Vriska, well she has John. She doesn't need to introduce a third choice because she's got someone that renders the [S]Flip showdown entirely irrelevant. She could have just directed him to blow away all the dust, or have him interfere directly with either Gamzee or Vriska. But instead she asked him to subtly alter Terezi's thoughts. I mean he did it pretty un-subtly but she probably saw that coming, and who knows maybe she will ask him to step in. But yeah, I don't think that Terezi is straight attempting to get a third option that allows Vriska to live, more that any third option she does create will absolve her guilty mind.
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Jan 5, 2015 19:51
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Mazerunner posted:No Terezi's problem was that it was either 'Terezi kills Vriska' or 'Everyone dies'. Both Terezi and Vriska knew that Vriska was going to cheat, and that 'stay' was never an option- it was always about Terezi being able to stop her. Terezi can't change Vriska's mind. The best she can hope for is that by altering past Terezi's approach that Vriska will be more willing to listen to reason and stay- but she can't bank on that. Maybe Vriska, at that stage in her life, cannot be talked down by any means and will always attempt to leave. In that case the best Terezi can do is minimize the damage, or to find a way that lets Vriska leave without putting the others at risk. Terezi can't be held responsible for Vriska being dumb, anymore than you could hold her responsible for Gamzee being insane, and even if Vriska dies (by Jack's hand or Terezi) she'll still be in a much better mental position going into the future. quote:GC: 1T S33MS S1LLY NOW. 1 DONT TH1NK 1 3V3R KN3W WH4T 1 W4S DO1NG She explicitly said she feels that she could have handled the situation better. She's changing the series of decisions that led up to that moment.
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Jan 5, 2015 19:55
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Yeah, the point is, the two options she forced herself into were not "stay" or "go", they were "kill her" or "let her get everyone killed". So "stay" as in, get her to stick around and not kill her, is a valid third option. And an easily accomplished one if you have, say, John influence the coin-toss with his wind powers. Luck-manipution's got nothing on actual physical manipulation. So, third options proposed: - Make her actually stay - Exile her - Let her fight Jack, but prevent this outcome from getting everyone killed (Like have John blow away her sparkle-trail) I'm leaning toward the 2nd option, but only because if she was exiled somewhere where she was dreaming, she could get all that 3-years of dreambubble experience.
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Jan 5, 2015 20:18
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Bobulus posted:Yeah, the point is, the two options she forced herself into were not "stay" or "go", they were "kill her" or "let her get everyone killed". So "stay" as in, get her to stick around and not kill her, is a valid third option. And an easily accomplished one if you have, say, John influence the coin-toss with his wind powers. Luck-manipution's got nothing on actual physical manipulation. -Beat her down with a newspaper because it doesn't matter how lucky you are; getting hit with a newspaper is sort of a grey area.
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Jan 5, 2015 20:50
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Right, but if she has John just jump in then she doesn't need to have him do anything else. If John's just going to blow the dust away, or alter the coin flip, then get him to do that right away without loving around with the plushes and leaving messages. But she's not doing that (so far at least). She's getting him to alter her own thought processes- but the final decision will still be in her hands. She's not having John take everything into his own hands, take the decision from her, but instead having him push her in the right direction. Trumping luck-manipulation with reality-manipulation is entirely not what Terezi is about. And PR, yeah I know she blames herself, but handling the situation better may not mean a happy ending where Vriska survives. Sure- maybe if Terezi approaches things differently Vriska will be amenable, able to be convinced to stay. But maybe she won't. Maybe, no matter what Terezi does, Vriska will always, always attempt to leave. And then what? and look at the quote. Specifically that the two vortices she saw were 'let everyone die' or 'kill Vriska'. Not 'let Vriska die'. And the bit about it being a right of passage (+ all the justice related musings she had earlier). She's changing those thought processes, getting rid of 'Terezi descendant of Redglare judging Vriska descendant of Mindfang for her sins' and instead approaching it as 'Terezi attempting to stop her friend Vriska from making a mistake' and maybe that's enough, but maybe not. Mazerunner fucked around with this message at 20:57 on Jan 5, 2015 |
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Jan 5, 2015 20:55
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paranoid randroid posted:That's just kind of killing her by other means Not if Vriska wins. On pages 5728 to 5731, Doc Scratch states: "As one who shares the Slayer's source of power, my projection must give him the unambiguous advantage. But even so... While I continue to not be a gambling man, I'm reasonably sure that if I was, I wouldn't bet against her." If Terezi lets Vriska go while using John to obscure her trail, Vriska may well beat Jack.
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Jan 5, 2015 20:55
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Vriska killing Jack before he can kill the universe frog would really severely screw the pooch. If the universe isn't destroyed, the Tumor can't detonate. If the Tumor doesn't detonate, the Green Sun can't form. If the Green Sun can't form then everything becomes a beta timeline.
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Jan 5, 2015 21:02
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That's if she actually fights Jack without him flying off, trying unsuccessfully to find that kid he already murdered twice,which might lead to that exile when the meteor fucks off. Oh yeah, and if Aranea loving things up like this is the catalyst for John fixing everything she'll be the unsung hero of this tale, the results of her efforts being intentional because if anyone in the bubbles knew what John was tapping into, it would be Megido and maybe her.
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Jan 5, 2015 21:03
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paranoid randroid posted:Vriska killing Jack before he can kill the universe frog would really severely screw the pooch. If the universe isn't destroyed, the Tumor can't detonate. If the Tumor doesn't detonate, the Green Sun can't form. If the Green Sun can't form then everything becomes a beta timeline. Except for the fact that John has explicitly said that his retcons do not doom the timeline even when they create paradoxes, and we have in fact seen this on multiple occasions. edit: and of course Jack still may destroy the trolls' Genesis Frog during the fight. Izzhov fucked around with this message at 21:11 on Jan 5, 2015 |
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Jan 5, 2015 21:07
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I'm trying to find a way to express my take on how a retcon would effect a potential paradox where a thing needs to exist but if it cant exist then... anyway I'm getting a pinching sensation at the base of my skull now is the salient point here. It's like this poo poo wasn't convoluted enough without introducing another level of self-perpetuating crap.
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Jan 5, 2015 21:09
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paranoid randroid posted:I'm trying to find a way to express my take on how a retcon would effect a potential paradox where a thing needs to exist but if it cant exist then... anyway I'm getting a pinching sensation at the base of my skull now is the salient point here. It would work exactly the same way that John still has the ability to control his powers even though he interrupted himself before he learned to control his powers. e: paranoid randroid posted:It's like this poo poo wasn't convoluted enough without introducing another level of self-perpetuating crap. Yeah I agree, this whole retcon business is kind of bullshit. I'm not sure how to feel about it but as far as speculation is concerned I'm just working with what we got. Izzhov fucked around with this message at 21:13 on Jan 5, 2015 |
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Jan 5, 2015 21:11
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It would be funny if "Void players create blanks in Scratch's awareness" turns out to be completely wrong and in fact all the things Scratch isn't omniscient about are the result of John meddling in the alpha timeline.
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Jan 5, 2015 21:14
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I think he would have to retcon the actual impact of the Green Sun itself, because its importance and the necessity of its creation, as well as the methodology of its creation, are pretty firmly entrenched in the story at this point. This isn't as basic as stealing a scalemate, it's one of the big hinges of the plot up to this point. We're talking, like, "canceling out the meteors that deliver the kids" levels of plot adjustment.
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Jan 5, 2015 21:14
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Was it at all suggested during the time of randomJohn how/if changes to one point in the story cascade forward in time? I mean does Homestuck as we originally read it not "exist" any more, with the "real" story now happening off screen?
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Jan 5, 2015 21:27
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