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ayn rand hand job posted:That would be because DeBlasio actually gave them raises. Considering back-pay wasn't going to be certain, that's not a valid point.
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Jan 5, 2015 23:22
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ayn rand hand job posted:That would be because DeBlasio actually gave them raises. I was talking about teachers unions in general, not just NY. That's great news. Edit -VVVVVVVVV I agree completely. Spun Dog fucked around with this message at 23:30 on Jan 5, 2015 |
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Jan 5, 2015 23:25
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Spun Dog posted:So, it's ok for one side to come in with an extreme bargaining position, but not the other?
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Jan 5, 2015 23:28
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Hrm but who beats the poo poo out of police unions when they make reasonable demands of their employer????
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Jan 6, 2015 00:08
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Rent-A-Cop posted:In general I'm not extremely bothered by unions being mean to management. I mean, worst case scenario, they can go home and cry into a glass of whiskey that costs more than I make in a month. The "management" in this scenario is the public. It's going to be the public's money that's funding these 30% raises. That's who the police are "being mean to".
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Jan 6, 2015 01:03
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Megaman's Jockstrap posted:The "management" in this scenario is the public. It's going to be the public's money that's funding these 30% raises. That's who the police are "being mean to". Edit: I mean honestly, I'm not trying to be a dick. I'm just shocked how fast people turn into Gilded Age robber barons the second you start talking about police unions. Intel&Sebastian posted:Who the gently caress was talking about getting rid of them completely? Stay on topic. Rent-A-Cop fucked around with this message at 01:14 on Jan 6, 2015 |
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Jan 6, 2015 01:09
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Who the gently caress was talking about getting rid of them completely? Stay on topic.
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Jan 6, 2015 01:13
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I'd be cool with that. gently caress the police.
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Jan 6, 2015 01:15
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Rent-A-Cop posted:>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Isn't that an argument against all public sector unions?<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
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Jan 6, 2015 01:15
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Spun Dog posted:Many teachers would agree with you, but they still do their jobs. If anyone needs tasers, its high school teachers.
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Jan 6, 2015 01:15
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Rent-A-Cop posted:Isn't that an argument against all public sector unions? It's an observation of the situation. It's not an argument against anything. You are applying private-sector union dynamics to a situation where they do not apply. That's all I'm stating.
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Jan 6, 2015 01:23
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Megaman's Jockstrap posted:It's an observation of the situation. It's not an argument against anything. You are applying private-sector union dynamics to a situation where they do not apply. That's all I'm stating.
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Jan 6, 2015 01:35
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Vaginapocalypse posted:Also, most of the problems in the world can be attributed to white people Is this like an essentialism thing or what Sure it's literally true as an accident of history type of thing but I just want to be sure if I can add "naturally suited for world conquest & rule" to my list of privileges Tiny Timbs fucked around with this message at 01:44 on Jan 6, 2015 |
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Jan 6, 2015 01:42
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Rent-A-Cop posted:Maybe you're right. I'll admit that I don't know much about collective bargaining in public safety unions. I generally feel like people love to beat up a union as the source of all ills though. Conservatives will blame everything from ADD to bullying on the teacher's unions and liberals seem to have to do the same thingr for police unions. Reflexively I see the unions as the good guys in any dispute but I guess in certain cases it's just bastards all around.
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Jan 6, 2015 04:27
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Misogynist posted:You have effectively one police force and one labor union. It's monopoly versus monopsony, and there's never going to be a complete equilibrium of power.
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Jan 6, 2015 04:43
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Rent-A-Cop posted:Maybe in NYC, but outside of major cities that isn't true. hmmm seems like this debate concerns the NYCPBA so
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Jan 6, 2015 04:59
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http://www.nbclosangeles.com/news/n...FlowTwt_LABrand
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Jan 6, 2015 05:10
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Depending on the police union, some don't allow management to be actively represented (The typical cutoff is Captain from what I've seen). Either way the union isn't the issue. Other countries have police unions. It's not like most mayors don't get exactly what they want with their police force either. I think if you're looking for accountability and to establish oversight that gets hit in the purse strings, create a federal insurance program that is responsible for oversight and allow people to sue it. Then there's a huge incentive outside the local system (also free from local intimidation) and when patterns emerge they have incentive to move forward.
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Jan 6, 2015 05:14
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#notallpoliceunions 
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Jan 6, 2015 05:15
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If only cops get shot, does that work for or against the whole "less cops dogging people for small infractions is good" thing? Maybe they're having their own killed to show how necessary they are 
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Jan 6, 2015 05:19
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Two officers have been (non-fatally) shot in the Bronx, per the NYT. Edit: beaten, assumed that the LA affiliate link would've been about something else.
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Jan 6, 2015 05:53
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Where in the Bronx? Hopefully, people in Tremont are restoring order and letting the cops know they should be somewhere else.
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Jan 6, 2015 05:57
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I'm just asking because I can imagine an alternate timeline where a butterfly flapped its wings the other way and now we're all talking about how the browns are responsible for all the world's problems and how I hate my job of replacing tiles in the Malik's palace mosaic
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Jan 6, 2015 06:02
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I was talking to my brother about police stuff and he raised the idea of creating civilian auxiliaries to serve as a buffer between police forces and civilian communities. We live down south where this isn't as much of a thing (although some towns, typically wealthier towns with bored retired people, have unarmed citizen patrol units). I'm thinking more like the Guardian Angels or Shomrim. I'm not very familiar with these units up north. Basically, create a buffer and reduce interactions with the formal police for a lot of the minor stuff. Freeing up cops to handle more important crimes. But the main thing is to reduce the frequency of police and civilian interactions that could turn deadly. Hey, it's what we do in Afghanistan and Iraq. A. Beaverhausen posted:If only cops get shot, does that work for or against the whole "less cops dogging people for small infractions is good" thing? Maybe they're having their own killed to show how necessary they are https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iiSjxn9Z-Bg BrutalistMcDonalds fucked around with this message at 06:18 on Jan 6, 2015 |
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Jan 6, 2015 06:07
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Omi-Polari posted:I was talking to my brother about police stuff and he raised the idea of creating civilian auxiliaries to serve as a buffer between police forces and civilian communities. We live down south where this isn't as much of a thing (although some towns, typically wealthier towns with bored retired people, have unarmed citizen patrol units). I'm thinking more like the Guardian Angels or Shomrim. I'm not very familiar with these units up north. The issue with that (I mean, beyond the fact that you're making militias) is that police are often tasked with minor incidents because of reasons other than "no one else is there to do it". Traffic violations for example are major sources of revenue for cities and while a lot of that could in theory be handled informally it probably also would be a major loss to cities if nothing else changed.
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Jan 6, 2015 06:11
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We should do that and call them Special Action. Goons can get behind the SA, right?
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Jan 6, 2015 06:15
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Omi-Polari posted:I was talking to my brother about police stuff and he raised the idea of creating civilian auxiliaries to serve as a buffer between police forces and civilian communities. We live down south where this isn't as much of a thing (although some towns, typically wealthier towns with bored retired people, have unarmed citizen patrol units). I'm thinking more like the Guardian Angels or Shomrim. I'm not very familiar with these units up north. I worry that reducing police-citizen interaction would just make those interactions that do happen all the worse.
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Jan 6, 2015 06:16
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Xandu posted:I worry that reducing police-citizen interaction would just make those interactions that do happen all the worse. And this isn't unprecedented. The kinds of organizations I'm talking about (like Shomrim) already exist and are unarmed. We talk about black self-government and self-policing, but people seem really scared of what that would look like in practice. But why not?
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Jan 6, 2015 06:26
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Other countries have accountable police forces that lack itchy trigger fingers and have not formed militias.
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Jan 6, 2015 06:28
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Omi-Polari posted:That's a good point. But would increasing police-citizen interaction make those interactions better? I'm not so sure. I think it's complicated, but there's definitely something to be said for community policing. Just need to make sure it doesn't turn into broken windows.
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Jan 6, 2015 06:34
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The basic problem I have is that I don't see a meaningful way to work with the police. What would a group like that do besides legitimize police oppression?
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Jan 6, 2015 06:36
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Vahakyla posted:Other countries have accountable police forces that lack itchy trigger fingers and have not formed militias. I mean, it worked so well in Central America for all those years. Why shouldn't it work in NYC?
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Jan 6, 2015 06:38
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Shbobdb posted:The basic problem I have is that I don't see a meaningful way to work with the police. This is pretty much it. You have to have a system that has oversight of the police, and the teeth to enforce them. You can't have reform if you don't have oversight, I can't imagine a job on the planet where people wouldn't cross the line if they knew there'd never be consequences.
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Jan 6, 2015 06:41
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bassguitarhero posted:This is pretty much it. You have to have a system that has oversight of the police, and the teeth to enforce them. You can't have reform if you don't have oversight, I can't imagine a job on the planet where people wouldn't cross the line if they knew there'd never be consequences.
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Jan 6, 2015 06:45
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Shbobdb posted:The basic problem I have is that I don't see a meaningful way to work with the police. What would a group like that do besides legitimize police oppression? If one of these groups dealt with Eric Garner instead of the NYPD, the situation might've turned out differently. Or maybe not. But the general idea is that the citizen's groups have much less leeway when it comes to using force. I remember when I was in the Castro in S.F. and talked to two men who were part of a gay men's street patrol. They had uniforms and gave me a whistle to blow (har har) in case I got into trouble. And they had a number I could dial. I liked the idea.
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Jan 6, 2015 06:46
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By forming a group dedicated to upholding justice and self-defense? Also, provide free school lunches.
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Jan 6, 2015 06:47
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Rent-A-Cop posted:How do you get oversight when the public broadly agrees with the idea that "existing while black" is a crime? And therein lies the crux of the central problem with the protests
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Jan 6, 2015 06:47
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Omi-Polari posted:If one of these groups dealt with Eric Garner instead of the NYPD, the situation might've turned out differently. Or maybe not.
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Jan 6, 2015 06:47
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Omi-Polari posted:It's basically hyper-local "cops" who people can call to deal with stuff. If the local militia (or volunteer patrol, or whatever you want to call them) think the situation needs the formal police, then they can call them. They'd get informal training from the police. They'd have them on speed dial. It's not rocket science. For what it's worth: quote:The NYPD Auxiliary Police are civic-minded men and women who volunteer to assist their local Police Precincts, Housing Police Service Areas, and Transit Districts, by performing uniformed patrol in their communities. They are recruited, trained and equipped by the Police Department. They come from many diverse backgrounds and a myriad of occupations throughout the City, such as computer programmers, mechanics, merchants, nurses, security guards, school teachers, students, etc. Though they're not really involved in enforcement.
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Jan 6, 2015 06:49
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Rent-A-Cop posted:How do you get oversight when the public broadly agrees with the idea that "existing while black" is a crime? I wouldn't say that's inherently true, or else you wouldn't get these hyper balkanized communities like Ferguson et all. The issue is really that in areas with unrest there's a lot of public support (at least usually*) for oppressing minorities, and there's a large disinterest in consolidation of police to some higher level (state, national, etc). *NYC being the exception, although that seems to be an issue of institutional inertia rather than everyone (outside of Staten Island) saying "gently caress the blacks".
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Jan 6, 2015 06:52
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