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apophenium posted:Forge of Darkness is making my wildest dreams come true. I'm glad to be reading Erikson again.
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Dec 30, 2014 18:39
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apophenium posted:Forge of Darkness is making my wildest dreams come true. I'm glad to be reading Erikson again. Toll the Hounds (which is actually much better third time around) made me read FoD before I finish off with Dust and Crippled this time around. The focus in Toll are clearly on the Tiste Andii, which is great. Also, the Hounds of Light is probably one of the largest anticlimaxes in the series.
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Dec 30, 2014 20:46
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Be fair, the poor bastards ran into Karsa.
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Dec 31, 2014 02:38
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I'm about a hundred pages from finishing FoD and man I am surprised how much I like it. I figured it would be good but drat I didn't think I'd enjoy it this much. There's just so much information buried in there, making me think a re-read isn't that crazy.
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Jan 3, 2015 05:40
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I finished FoD and want more. Any recommendations? I read Abercrombie and Sanderson and the like but they aren't in the same class. Lynch was promising but his series is getting weaker. Gene Wolfe is incredible but I already read the Sun books.
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Jan 4, 2015 17:34
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Well, you could try Bakker's Prince of Nothing for some seriously dark fantasy. Opinions are divisive on that one.
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Jan 4, 2015 18:02
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Hand Row posted:I finished FoD and want more. Any recommendations? I read Abercrombie and Sanderson and the like but they aren't in the same class. Lynch was promising but his series is getting weaker. Gene Wolfe is incredible but I already read the Sun books. Terry Goodkind's Sword of Truth series. Then join us in the lets read of it in traditional games. Once you've read those, you'll never criticise Esslemont again! But on a more serious note, when I have nothing to read I reread the MBotF and The Dresden Files, alternatively. Dresden is short and pulpy enough that it acts as a sort of palate cleanser and gets me ready for another malaz book. If you haven't read them though, the first two books are similar to gardens of the moon in that they are not nearly as good as the latter books. China Mieville is a good shout too. And if you haven't read American Gods (or honestly almost anything Gaiman has written) you are doing yourself a disservice.
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Jan 4, 2015 19:08
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Hand Row posted:I finished FoD and want more. Any recommendations? I read Abercrombie and Sanderson and the like but they aren't in the same class. Lynch was promising but his series is getting weaker. Gene Wolfe is incredible but I already read the Sun books. Wheel of Time and Bakker are probably the closest in having a huge scope. The Elric saga by Moorcook is a classic, and Anomander Rake is Eriksons version of Elric of Melnibone. Or rather, if you combine Silchas Ruin and Anomander Rake you get Elric. Otherwise, the first books in Black Company might be interesting, considering Cook is a major influence on Erikson. rejutka posted:Be fair, the poor bastards ran into Karsa. And Deaths Herald and Tulas Shorn. Also Cotillon should be around, not to speak of Kruppe. Also Caladan Brood, Spite and Envy is also around. They were pretty hosed from the start. Speaking of Karsa, he is still less than Rake and Dassem as is apparent from that fight.
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Jan 4, 2015 21:01
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Hand Row posted:I finished FoD and want more. Any recommendations? I read Abercrombie and Sanderson and the like but they aren't in the same class. Lynch was promising but his series is getting weaker. Gene Wolfe is incredible but I already read the Sun books. The Scar by China Mieville turns into some really great fantasy, and it feels like it came from a world that never faced the Tolkienesque takeover.
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Jan 4, 2015 22:58
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General Battuta posted:The Scar by China Mieville turns into some really great fantasy, and it feels like it came from a world that never faced the Tolkienesque takeover. Do I need to, or should I, read the Bas-Lag stuff in order?
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Jan 4, 2015 23:25
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Don't need to, don't really gain much by doing so. I haven't tried Iron Council, but The Scar doesn't seem to need any information from Perdido Street Station. Although reading PSS may give you a better sense of why New Crobuzon's government is so avaricious, on second thought... Both The Scar and PSS suffer from slow openings full of dense moody prose. Push through, it's really worth it.
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Jan 4, 2015 23:34
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Hand Row posted:I finished FoD and want more. Any recommendations? I read Abercrombie and Sanderson and the like but they aren't in the same class. Lynch was promising but his series is getting weaker. Gene Wolfe is incredible but I already read the Sun books. I have a couple of suggestions that are more "what's new and not terrible in the world of Fantasy books" than "what is exactly like the Malazan series" because, well, there isn't anything. City of Stairs is pretty much Fantasy Book of The Year™ 2014. I enjoyed it, though it doesn't share all that much with the Malazan series aside from Sigund being a giant badass on par with Karsa.  It is also a relatively short, single volume that is entirely self-contained.The Red Knight is big dumb fun. It has (lots and lots of) realistic-ish medieval combat, but at the same time doesn't shy away from having all-powerful mages as PoV characters. First of an ongoing series. The second book of ??? total is already out, but wasn't quite as good as the first, IMO.
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Jan 5, 2015 00:09
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After pages and pages of kids suffering and dying in the Glass Desert, the Snake suddenly became a "Holy poo poo!" story. Erickson again makes me work for it, and then stand agape.
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Jan 5, 2015 00:54
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Thanks for the suggestions guys, going to checkout Moorcook and Mieville as I have never read any of their books. The comment about nothing like the Malazan series is dead on. As far as new stuff, I did read City of Stairs and thought it was fine. It got a little too clean and should have left some things alone but I understand since it was only supposed to be one book. The second Bloodsong book was disappointing which is too bad. At least we get Fall of Light this year. Is Erikson going to write the Karsa trilogy after the Tiste stuff or will we see a Karsa book sooner than later?
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Jan 5, 2015 04:36
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I couldn't even begin to list all the hack fantasy authors who have ripped off Moorcock, so yeah, read his books, especially the original Elric series. You should also read Jack Vance if you haven't done so already. He was a massive influence on Wolfe and many others.
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Jan 5, 2015 05:23
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Hand Row posted:Thanks for the suggestions guys, going to checkout Moorcook and Mieville as I have never read any of their books. The comment about nothing like the Malazan series is dead on. I really enjoyed Anthony Ryan's Bloodsong (haven't started the sequel yet as many reviewers seemed to think it was filler), as well as Brent Weeks' Lightbringer (now on the third book, which some people were similarly put off with but which I've so far enjoyed).
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Jan 5, 2015 08:56
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Habibi posted:I really enjoyed Anthony Ryan's Bloodsong (haven't started the sequel yet as many reviewers seemed to think it was filler), as well as Brent Weeks' Lightbringer (now on the third book, which some people were similarly put off with but which I've so far enjoyed). Clark Nova posted:The Red Knight is big dumb fun. It has (lots and lots of) realistic-ish medieval combat, but at the same time doesn't shy away from having all-powerful mages as PoV characters. First of an ongoing series. The second book of ??? total is already out, but wasn't quite as good as the first, IMO. Although all of these are kinda generic and if you expect something close to Malazan (lol, like there is) you are going to be disappointed. They were decent, but nothing else. I guess there is Sanderson as well, but there seems to be a divide between readers that like Sanderson and Erikson.
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Jan 5, 2015 09:54
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I wanted to like Sanderson, I did, it's clearly well written but it felt so 'polar' - There's no moral ambiguity, the good guys are good, the bad guys are bad, and I just couldn't keep my suspension of disbelief up. Of course, I'm also one who utterly despises Rothfuss (who is an excellent writer of prose, but I *HATE* his books) so perhaps I'm crazy.
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Jan 5, 2015 11:21
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No. Rothfuss is terrible, you aren't crazy for hating The Ultimate Mary Sue ever written into fiction (somehow outdoing both characters literally named Mary Sue and 100% selfinserts in fan fiction written by 13 year olds.) But Sanderson, you have to realize, has really grown as a writer in a lot of ways. If you couldn't or can't finish the Mistborn trilogy, then read some spoilers and go read the book Alloy of Law. It's about a thousand times better and it's set in the same universe and he's figured out moral ambiguity to some degree. Plus it's a magitech western. Which I've never seen before.
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Jan 5, 2015 11:40
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What struck me with Sanderson is that he really keeps writing the same book with a different magic system each time. Nothing against it or people who like it, it's just not very interesting to me. As for Rothfuss, avoid like plague. The first book is meh-ish, the second one downright terrible.
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Jan 5, 2015 11:56
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Cardiac posted:Although all of these are kinda generic and if you expect something close to Malazan (lol, like there is) you are going to be disappointed. I'm not sure if I'd call Lightbringer generic, unless we consider everything that isn't Erikson generic - a perspective to which I might be sympathetic. Blood Song was definitely more typically generic, but I thought it was well written and I enjoyed most of the characters. I like Sanderson, but in the same way I like David Eddings. It's fun but largely mindless (despite, in the case of both authors, involving an obscene amount of deliberation and world building) and predictable. Technical issues aside (weak characterization, lousy dialog, middling humor), his tendency to vomit information to the point of superfluousness (or otherwise be cryptic to the point of uselessness) puts me off. In this, he is the polar opposite of Erikson and it's not surprising if fans of one have trouble with the other.
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Jan 5, 2015 19:37
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I'm really glad this topic came up. I read some Sanderson over the holidays and didn't want to poo poo all over the regulars in his fan thread. I tried reading way of kings, and had to put it down. It was just so... juvenile. I agree with whoever said that all his stuff is basically the same. I also can't stand the plot device of characters making obvious mistakes with 'devastating' consequences down the line. When he does something very different like the legion novellas I do like it though. The most frustrating part is that when I explain why I prefer Erikson and think he's superior to a Sanderson fan, they get upset. I try to be diplomatic but it's true that Erikson demands much more from the reader and saying so makes you look judgmental.
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Jan 5, 2015 20:12
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I like both authors. I'm a huge sucker for world building so I'll read any author who puts some effort into making their settings a more cohesive place.
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Jan 5, 2015 20:31
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Habibi posted:I'm not sure if I'd call Lightbringer generic, unless we consider everything that isn't Erikson generic - a perspective to which I might be sympathetic. Blood Song was definitely more typically generic, but I thought it was well written and I enjoyed most of the characters. I kinda liked Bloodsong, at least along the lines as a enjoyable read. It is not like I will reread it like I have done with other series. As for Lightbringer, it has some interesting ideas and is at least easy to read. But the characters are just uninteresting and the whole story is just wish-fullfilment all the time. Fuzzy Mammal posted:I'm really glad this topic came up. I read some Sanderson over the holidays and didn't want to poo poo all over the regulars in his fan thread. Good summary. By Sanderson, I have read the WoT books, Elantris, Warbreaker, Way of Kings and Mistborn and while he is not horrible, he is also just not fun to read since the characters are just so bland. If Way of Kings is Sandersons version of moral ambiguity, I don't know what to say anymore.
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Jan 5, 2015 21:19
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Stormlight Archive is pretty decent and he has grown as an author but Sanderson still has some pretty paper thin characters. He really, really seems to like building fanfic for his gaming creations, he's so involved in the technical aspects of his magic systems. Erikson, despite using actual cookie cutter GURPS tropes, builds more realistic characters, and dude is an archaeologist. Sanderson is a writing teacher. I don't get it. I like Sanderson for solidly done enjoyable fantasy when I'm in the mood. It's like going to a good chain restaurant because you know what you're getting even if it's not amazing. But hey, that's the epic fantasy genre for you.
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Jan 5, 2015 22:50
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I wonder if some of these problems could be overcome if he took his time. Possibly his best and worst trait could be the rate he pumps out work.
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Jan 5, 2015 23:10
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I'm... not sure. I mean, I read Elantris, Warbreaker and the first book of Mistborn and felt they're all the same book with different magic systems tacked on, but those don't matter since there's not a single engaging character or story in the things. It is serviceable, mind you; but I was constantly expecting some development and... then the book was over. Three times. If I can work the restaurant analogy from before, I'd consider Sanderson a chain fast food.
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Jan 5, 2015 23:19
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anilEhilated posted:I'm... not sure. I mean, I read Elantris, Warbreaker and the first book of Mistborn and felt they're all the same book with different magic systems tacked on, but those don't matter since there's not a single engaging character or story in the things. If you haven't, read his Stormlight books. It feels like he was writing the rest of his poo poo to gear up for a his real work, a giant doorstopper 10 book series. Which he has pretty much said is the case. If you just pretend he has no published works before those 2 it makes it pretty decent....again, this is a genre where David Eddings wrote the same series 4 times and is still beloved author.
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Jan 5, 2015 23:26
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Zeitgueist posted:If you haven't, read his Stormlight books. It feels like he was writing the rest of his poo poo to gear up for a his real work, a giant doorstopper 10 book series. Which he has pretty much said is the case. And wrote a bunch more books essentially summarizing what he'd already written and had them become bestsellers. But yeah I agree Stormlight is by far his best (long form) work. Still, the first book does start immediately off with Exposition on Magic System 101.
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Jan 5, 2015 23:55
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Yeah it's fascinating to me that Erikson is more readable. I mean he's a scientist writing doorstop-length grimdark fantasy based on his desktop RP campaign cribbing from Glen Cook's style. Looking at that on paper, it should be loving terrible. Not saying Malazan is the epitome of 21st century literature or whatever but it's surprising.
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Jan 6, 2015 00:06
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Zeitgueist posted:If you haven't, read his Stormlight books. It feels like he was writing the rest of his poo poo to gear up for a his real work, a giant doorstopper 10 book series. Which he has pretty much said is the case. Does the second Stormlight get better than Way of Kings? Cause I couldn't see myself reading 9 more books with such uninteresting characters. Kaladin, shudders. Regardless, they are readable and better than most other things in the genre. I am rather impressed by how he ended Wheel of Time, but in that case the characters were already implemented. What Erikson (and others like Mieville and Moorcook) does well is throwing you out in deep water and lets you puzzle everything as you go along. Sanderson is pretty much classical roleplaying stories where a character becomes more powerful throughout the story. Erikson on the other hand have fully-grown characters from the start with some exceptions (Karsa, Gruntle, Crokus/Cutter, Nimander).
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Jan 6, 2015 16:14
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I've still been enjoying Abercrombie in general - At least everyone is properly self-interested (like 90% of, y'know, actual people).
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Jan 6, 2015 20:13
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Cardiac posted:Does the second Stormlight get better than Way of Kings? A bit, but not much. Everyone is still a fairly 2D archetype, I read it more for the worldbuilding but that's also a fair description of Wheel of Time, which is why picking Sanderson made sense. Jordan had some creative world ideas but also really liked the technicalities of his magic system and his characters were fairly thin as well, though he was bit more poetic(at times) in his prose. Nobody knows how much of the end of WoT was Sanderson and how much Jordan, but Sanderson maintains that huge sections of the last book were Jordan.
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Jan 6, 2015 20:46
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Both Stormlight books are 90% heroes moping around going woe is me, my poor life/family/memory, how am I going to handle all this responsibility from my bridge crew/brothers/kingdom and 10% actual things getting done. They're entertaining reads but they could stand to be around 700 pages shorter. Malazan has a confusing cosmology too but at least you can find all that stuff in the books, instead of having to dig up author Q&As just to have a deeper reading. If there's someone who finished Malazan and wants more, I'd sooner point to Bakker than Sanderson. The Prince of Nothing is about as close as you'll get to a Malazan story and in some ways it turns the genre convention-breaking of Malazan up to 11.
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Jan 6, 2015 21:08
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Sanderson is one of the most bland fantasy writers I've ever come across. Malazan chat. Against my better judgement I went back and finished Assail. What a letdown that finish was in every possible way. I don't care if they planned the series together or not, ICE just bungles everything Malazan. Forge of Darkness on the other hand was really satisfying and I enjoyed Willful Child for what it was. What's Erikson working on these days? Any word on that Karsa trilogy?
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Jan 6, 2015 21:21
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Fall of Light is next; I wouldn't expect the Karsa series until the Kharkanas trilogy gets wrapped up. Meanwhile it sounds like ICE is going on to the early days of the Malazan Empire when Kellnaved and Dancer were doing their thing.
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Jan 6, 2015 21:25
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The Ninth Layer posted:Meanwhile it sounds like ICE is going on to the early days of the Malazan Empire when Kellnaved and Dancer were doing their thing. Oh good, now I can hate those characters too.
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Jan 6, 2015 21:30
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The Ninth Layer posted:Both Stormlight books are 90% heroes moping around going woe is me, my poor life/family/memory, how am I going to handle all this responsibility from my bridge crew/brothers/kingdom and 10% actual things getting done. They're entertaining reads but they could stand to be around 700 pages shorter. Malazan has a confusing cosmology too but at least you can find all that stuff in the books, instead of having to dig up author Q&As just to have a deeper reading. Figured. I might read continue with the series if I run out of ideas on what to read. Currently mixing Erikson with Runestaff by Moorcook and his books are still very good with a lot of non-generic monsters and heroes. I agree on Bakker as well, when it comes to world building Bakker have constructed a pretty original world and the storyline is very good. Spermy Smurf posted:Oh good, now I can hate those characters too. Well, to be fair, of the books Assail have been the biggest letdown. A couple of the others have at least been enjoyable, although the treatment of Crimson Guard is such a letdown. In this case at least we know the overall story, so he can't gently caress up too badly, can he?
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Jan 6, 2015 21:55
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Cardiac posted:In this case at least we know the overall story, so he can't gently caress up too badly, can he? I shudder at the thought of ICE handling Kellanved. Of course, the funny thing is that he apparently played him in the GURPS campaign.
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Jan 6, 2015 23:31
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I'm going out on a very unpopular limb here but I actually enjoy ICE's books despite the sub-Erikson writing style. Just take a very long break after reading an Erikson book before you pick up something by Esslemont and it'll be fine. I actually really enjoyed Assail too! 
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Jan 7, 2015 00:34
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