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It may be worth keeping in mind that Tolkien distinguished between "magic" and "sorcery". The former was just another way the world worked, and could be the manifestation of Powers in the world (i.e. the Valar). A miracle, as someone one said, is God throwing a new ball onto the billiard table. Once there, it obeys all the laws of Nature. Magic is like this. Sorcery, on the other hand, deals with compelling the free will of another, especially the dead. The Paths of the Dead always troubled me, for this reason: Aragorn certainly compels the spirits to do his will. That said, it was Isildur who originally cursed them, and Aragorn only compelled them with the promise of lifting the curse, which he did. I think it's interesting that Saruman's explosion at Helm's Deep is probably closer to "magic" than to "sorcery", but the characters refer to it as the latter.
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Dec 22, 2014 17:31
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There are indications post-Book of Lost Tales that seem to reference Numenor having rockets and ironclads, mostly in Unfinished Tales and early Akallabeth drafts if I recall correctly. However, it's worth noting that the parts of Middle-Earth we see are post-apocalyptic three or four times over. There are no large-scale mining operations to get high-quality iron and coal for steam engines. There are, generously, six cities total in an area at least the size of Europe, and large tracts of land are either uninhabited or sparsely inhabited. Far to the east and south, there may well be urbanized societies, but there are none within immediate reach. Even though Sauron can probably build high-tech equipment, he doesn't have the infrastructure to expand it outside of what's in Barad-dur and possibly Minas Ithil. That said, he and Saruman do have capabilities that are well beyond any Late Antiquity/Early Middle Ages polity could achieve historically, so they almost certainly have some industry going on. Of course, Tolkien viewed industry fairly negatively.
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Jan 5, 2015 17:34
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Effectronica posted:There are indications post-Book of Lost Tales that seem to reference Numenor having rockets and ironclads, mostly in Unfinished Tales and early Akallabeth drafts if I recall correctly. However, it's worth noting that the parts of Middle-Earth we see are post-apocalyptic three or four times over. There are no large-scale mining operations to get high-quality iron and coal for steam engines. There are, generously, six cities total in an area at least the size of Europe, and large tracts of land are either uninhabited or sparsely inhabited. Far to the east and south, there may well be urbanized societies, but there are none within immediate reach. Even though Sauron can probably build high-tech equipment, he doesn't have the infrastructure to expand it outside of what's in Barad-dur and possibly Minas Ithil. That said, he and Saruman do have capabilities that are well beyond any Late Antiquity/Early Middle Ages polity could achieve historically, so they almost certainly have some industry going on. Of course, Tolkien viewed industry fairly negatively. Basically most of the stories take place in a scenic rustic backwater whose only real remarkable trait was having some residual Noldor I guess. There is the question why Sauron didn't just completely ignore Gondor, but I guess he was stuck with his tower where it was, and besides which he probably wanted to kill him some elves and Numenorians. Also his ring of course.
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Jan 5, 2015 23:20
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Nessus posted:I think Gondor was somewhat more thickly inhabited than most of the places the Fellowship wandered through - obviously they were trying to steer clear of areas with a lot of people. The area around the Lonely Mountain didn't seem completely empty, anyway. Keep in mind, though, that Gondor's main port of Pelargir is largely a harborage judging by Legolas and Gimli's descriptions (or, alternately, it's been burned down by the Corsairs by the time they get there). Even Gondor is sparse by medieval standards from what we see on-page.
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Jan 5, 2015 23:55
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So if Mordor was a hellish ashy plain, what were the orcs eating for food? (You can't say each other.) What's the economy and infrastructure of an army-state in a wasteland without vegetation? You're not going to tell me they go out raiding local farms to feed the vast armies of darkness, are you?
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Jan 6, 2015 00:02
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We know that Nurn, southern Mordor, was very fertile and Sauron had slaves working farms there constantly churning out food for his armies. Aragorn set them free and gave them that land for their own after Sauron's defeat.
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Jan 6, 2015 00:10
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Josef K. Sourdust posted:So if Mordor was a hellish ashy plain, what were the orcs eating for food? (You can't say each other.) What's the economy and infrastructure of an army-state in a wasteland without vegetation? You're not going to tell me they go out raiding local farms to feed the vast armies of darkness, are you? Volcanic dryland farming in its southern parts, but Sauron also has allies and vassals in the more fertile parts of the world and they may provide the majority of its food supplies. He may also rely largely on his undead servants when not building up for conquest (Barad-dur was besieged for seven years, so you do the math).
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Jan 6, 2015 00:15
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Josef K. Sourdust posted:So if Mordor was a hellish ashy plain, what were the orcs eating for food? (You can't say each other.) What's the economy and infrastructure of an army-state in a wasteland without vegetation? You're not going to tell me they go out raiding local farms to feed the vast armies of darkness, are you? The south east of mordor was fine.
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Jan 6, 2015 00:18
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Yeah there's an inland sea and a bunch of rivers in south east Mordor, so presumably there was opportunity for food and trading there. Also considering the general reputation orc food had I wouldn't be surprised if they did eat slaves/prisoners.
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Jan 6, 2015 00:27
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I am not going to go too far down this road but what we know of Orcs is filtered through rabid Orc racists and should be taken with a huge grain of salt. I mean this is just the texts themselves which all purport in their fictional frame to be the works of elves and men and no claim is made for any kind of historical accuracy whatever that means.
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Jan 6, 2015 00:29
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euphronius posted:I am not going to go too far down this road but what we know of Orcs is filtered through rabid Orc racists and should be taken with a huge grain of salt. Hmm, ok, I wasn't particularly conversant on S. Mordor. Presumably farmed by men?
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Jan 6, 2015 00:37
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Josef K. Sourdust posted:Are you saying that the Red Book of Westmarch is not a reliable primary source? I think we should be told... Sauron gets lots of slave tributes from his allies and vassals that he uses to work the fields near Nurn to feed his army.
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Jan 6, 2015 05:48
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bartlebyshop posted:Sauron gets lots of slave tributes from his allies and vassals that he uses to work the fields near Nurn to feed his army.
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Jan 6, 2015 06:08
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Josef K. Sourdust posted:Are you saying that the Red Book of Westmarch is not a reliable primary source? I think we should be told... Yeah, I doubt Aragorn would have given that land to Orcs.
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Jan 6, 2015 07:47
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BatteredFeltFedora posted:Yeah, I doubt Aragorn would have given that land to Orcs. Hence a program of forced migration? Hmmm, tell us more about this Defender of the West.
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Jan 6, 2015 10:49
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Defender of the West. gently caress the South, man.
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Jan 6, 2015 12:04
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This is the point where someone mentions The Last Ringbearer, right? The first quarter is one of the funniest things I've ever read as it reinterprets virtually everything in this brilliant just-about-plausible way. By three quarters in it loses steam and just devolves into being a mediocre spy novel, but the opening bits where it's going hell-for-leather deconstructing everything from LotR and building it back up again are wonderful. Free download available here, if you're in this thread you'll probably dig it.
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Jan 6, 2015 14:39
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Well, over the holidays I was out of things to read and read Tolkien's letters, and that got me started on a complete re-read, starting with the Hobbit; now I'm moving through the LotR (just finished Fellowship -- I went and got myself a copy of the 50th Anniversary Edition). It's been a really surprising experience. Normally when I re-read a book, ok, I've mostly forgotten what happens, I'm just re-reading for the story or whatever. This time, though . . I guess it's because I hadn't actually read them in so long -- I read them over and over again when I was younger, but I hadn't actually cracked a hobbit-related book spine open in probably a decade; I think the last time I sat down and read them all was right before Fellowship came out, and even then I probably just skimmed them, didn't read closely. Some of the characters and scenes still have my own mental images I came up with when I read them the first time as a kid (my Balrog is still man-size, not a giant flaming demon); some of the characters have gotten impossibly intermingled with the scenes from the movie (yeah, Frodo is Elijah Wood now). Some parts of the books I'd forgotten almost completely -- especially the descriptions. On the other hand, I'm realizing that some phrases and sayings from Tolkien have crept into my everday speech and were things I thought of as "my own," but no, I was wrong, they're quite obviously from Tolkien; I'd just forgotten the source. It's taking me a lot longer than I thought it would; if you pay attention to Tolkien's prose it's surprisingly dense, much moreso than any other fantasy out there, with the possible exception of a few authors like Gene Wolfe. It's a strange experience. You really can't read the same book twice.
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Jan 6, 2015 21:47
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Upon re-reading Fellowship to my son I was surprised to (re)discover that Galadriel was Celebrian's mom and thus Arwen's grandma, and Elrond was her son-in-law. That blew my mind a lil bit.
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Jan 6, 2015 21:50
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:It's taking me a lot longer than I thought it would; if you pay attention to Tolkien's prose it's surprisingly dense, much moreso than any other fantasy out there, with the possible exception of a few authors like Gene Wolfe. It's a strange experience. You really can't read the same book twice.
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Jan 6, 2015 22:02
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Nessus posted:There's even an example of how, when asked, he would render Theoden's talk to Gandalf in modern English, so he clearly knew what he was doing. And well  , how does he rend it?
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Jan 6, 2015 22:15
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Oracle posted:Upon re-reading Fellowship to my son I was surprised to (re)discover that Galadriel was Celebrian's mom and thus Arwen's grandma, and Elrond was her son-in-law. That blew my mind a lil bit. I need to re-read LotR, but isn't Arwen like only two or three generations removed from her common ancestor with Aragorn?
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Jan 6, 2015 22:25
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papasyhotcakes posted:And well He also talks about how the characters who speak in the most 'modern' ways are probably Smaug and Saruman.
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Jan 6, 2015 22:29
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SirPhoebos posted:I need to re-read LotR, but isn't Arwen like only two or three generations removed from her common ancestor with Aragorn? And when Bilbo sings his Earendil song in Rivendell he's singing about Elrond's dad, which I can't help but see as a fair bit of cheek.
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Jan 6, 2015 22:35
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After reading The Silmarillion, you start to realize what a family affair the whole War of the Ring was. Sauron killed Galadriel's brother while he was a prisoner, for example. Her father was slain by Sauron's master, Morgoth. Sauron later destroyed Hollin, which Galadriel had established in pale memory of Doriath after Beleriand sank into the ocean. Lothlorien was kind of "take 3" for Galadriel. Galadriel is also the heir to the high kingship of the Noldor. She could have been High Queen, but apparently preferred--or was bound to--patriarchy. Celeborn was only her consort. That means Galadriel's male heir would be the next in line for the Noldorian High Kingship. She had one daughter, who married Elrond. Good so far. Now things get a little confusing: Arwen had two brothers, but it's unclear to me if she was older than them. If she was older, then the High Kingship should, I think, go to Arwen's oldest male heir, who unfortunately is a Man. Writing this, I now wonder: should one of Elrond's sons been High King of the Noldor?
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Jan 6, 2015 23:33
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Runcible Cat posted:One generation - Aragorn's directly descended from Elros, Elrond's twin. Galadriel probably should've been queen, I guess, but queen over what? There were like three city-states of Noldor left and they were clearly in decline. It might have just picked a fight with Thranduil that nobody was interested in. It is funny to think that even that line ends up in Aragorn's family though.
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Jan 6, 2015 23:38
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Ynglaur posted:After reading The Silmarillion, you start to realize what a family affair the whole War of the Ring was. Sauron killed Galadriel's brother while he was a prisoner, for example. Her father was slain by Sauron's master, Morgoth. Sauron later destroyed Hollin, which Galadriel had established in pale memory of Doriath after Beleriand sank into the ocean. Lothlorien was kind of "take 3" for Galadriel. With all of the elves heading West, what significance would being High King of the Noldor entail? EDIT: Nessus posted:Galadriel probably should've been queen, I guess, but queen over what? There were like three city-states of Noldor left and they were clearly in decline. It might have just picked a fight with Thranduil that nobody was interested in. It is funny to think that even that line ends up in Aragorn's family though. Between title-blobbing and inbreeding Aragorn is more like the Hapsburgs than any English monarch 
SirPhoebos fucked around with this message at 23:44 on Jan 6, 2015 |
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Jan 6, 2015 23:41
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SirPhoebos posted:Between title-blobbing and inbreeding Aragorn is more like the Hapsburgs than any English monarch
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Jan 6, 2015 23:45
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Nessus posted:Weren't there like thirty generations between Aragorn and his common ancestor with Arwen? I mean at a certain point we're all each other's 19th cousin or something. Yeah, but as mention Arwen is just one generation removed. The idea of AragornxArwen being a half-hillbilly couple is way more amusing to me than it warrents.
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Jan 6, 2015 23:49
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Runcible Cat posted:One generation - Aragorn's directly descended from Elros, Elrond's twin. Yeah, that's one of the things that's wildly different on a re-read. Aragorn actually calls Bilbo out for being cheeky by making verses about Earendil in the house of Elrond. First time you read it that's just "ok, there is a background of history to this world that I don't understand and probably aren't expected to, moving on." In the intervening decade though I've read a lot of other stuff -- Silmarillion, Encyclopedia of Arda, Lost Tales, etc. -- and so now that's actually a funny joke and shows a lot of Bilbo's character in his old age.
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Jan 7, 2015 00:06
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Ynglaur posted:After reading The Silmarillion, you start to realize what a family affair the whole War of the Ring was. Sauron killed Galadriel's brother while he was a prisoner, for example. Her father was slain by Sauron's master, Morgoth. I know I've pointed this out before, but Galadriel's father Finarfin didn't come to Middle-Earth after the Kinslaying - he turned back and became king of the Noldor who stayed in Aman. Her uncle Fingolfin is the one who challenged Morgoth to single combat and wounded him seven times before being flattened. EDIT: Her oldest brother Finrod Felagund was killed by a werewolf in Sauron's dungeon during Beren's Quest for the Silmaril. Her other two older brothers were killed at the Dagor Bragollach. Also Thranduil's rule is over the Silvan Elves of the Woodland Realm (though he himself is Sindar). Galadriel's claim to rule is over the Noldor - she rules in Lothlorien as Celeborn's queen, not in her own right. (NOTE: I am wrong about this, they are co-rulers). As an aside, it's interesting that both major communities of Silvan Elves we know of adopted Sindar rulers - Oropher and Thranduil's line in the Woodland Realm and Amdir and Amroth in Lothlorien, later Celeborn and Galadriel. Lemniscate Blue fucked around with this message at 01:07 on Jan 7, 2015 |
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Jan 7, 2015 00:48
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BatteredFeltFedora posted:I know I've pointed this out before, but Galadriel's father Finarfin didn't come to Middle-Earth after the Kinslaying - he turned back and became king of the Noldor who stayed in Aman. Her uncle Fingolfin is the one who challenged Morgoth to single combat and wounded him seven times before being flattened.
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Jan 7, 2015 00:53
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Ynglaur posted:After reading The Silmarillion, you start to realize what a family affair the whole War of the Ring was. Sauron killed Galadriel's brother while he was a prisoner, for example. Her father was slain by Sauron's master, Morgoth. Sauron later destroyed Hollin, which Galadriel had established in pale memory of Doriath after Beleriand sank into the ocean. Lothlorien was kind of "take 3" for Galadriel. Elladan and Elrohir are about a century older than Arwen, but iirc isn't it sort of unclear whether they choose to go West with Elrond or not?
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Jan 7, 2015 00:56
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Radio! posted:Elladan and Elrohir are about a century older than Arwen, but iirc isn't it sort of unclear whether they choose to go West with Elrond or not? They didn't go with him at the time, but it's not known whether they went West eventually or not. And technically maybe one of them should have become High King of the Noldor, but the reason Gil-Galad was considered the last High King is that after the fall of Eregion and the War of the Last Alliance, there really weren't enough Noldor around to organize into a kingdom. Lemniscate Blue fucked around with this message at 01:10 on Jan 7, 2015 |
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Jan 7, 2015 01:03
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You're right, of course: Fingolfin was Galadriel's uncle. The best writers, imo, not only tell a good tale, but also have depth.
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Jan 7, 2015 01:23
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:Yeah, that's one of the things that's wildly different on a re-read. Aragorn actually calls Bilbo out for being cheeky by making verses about Earendil in the house of Elrond. First time you read it that's just "ok, there is a background of history to this world that I don't understand and probably aren't expected to, moving on." In the intervening decade though I've read a lot of other stuff -- Silmarillion, Encyclopedia of Arda, Lost Tales, etc. -- and so now that's actually a funny joke and shows a lot of Bilbo's character in his old age. What gets me is that you were right the first time: all the other stuff that puts it in context was published posthumously and not by (JRR) Tolkien. And yet it works either way. 
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Jan 7, 2015 02:55
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Nessus posted:It sounds like if Sauron hadn't put his mojo in the Ring, Galadriel could've just gone down to Mordor and killed his rear end. (The problem being getting to him, of course.) What was she doing during the Last Alliance? Late writings indicate that Galadriel was essentially Feanor's equal (worse in the arts and trades, better at fighting and lore), so in a one-on-one confrontation, she would probably have gone through Sauron like a hot knife through butter. During the Last Alliance, Lorien sent troops and Amdir, the king of Lothlorien, led them and died on the Dagorlad. She and Celeborn probably fought with them. She didn't face Sauron directly because Elendil and Gil-galad had precedence as King of Numenor in Exile and High King of the Noldor for the duel (and also, speculatively, because she didn't trust herself with the temptation of the One Ring). BatteredFeltFedora posted:They didn't go with him at the time, but it's not known whether they went West eventually or not. I think Gildor's band, Galadriel, and Rivendell may be the only Noldor left by the War of the Ring. There were a long 3000 years for the survivors to sail westward.
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Jan 7, 2015 05:26
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BatteredFeltFedora posted:They didn't go with him at the time, but it's not known whether they went West eventually or not. Maybe they went with Sam when he passed over Sea after Rosie's death.
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Jan 7, 2015 05:47
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Effectronica posted:I think Gildor's band, Galadriel, and Rivendell may be the only Noldor left by the War of the Ring. There were a long 3000 years for the survivors to sail westward. I had thought there were Noldor at the Grey Havens under Cirdan, but apparently they were all Sindar. Huh.
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Jan 7, 2015 05:59
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Effectronica posted:Late writings indicate that Galadriel was essentially Feanor's equal (worse in the arts and trades, better at fighting and lore)
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Jan 7, 2015 06:09
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