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bhsman posted:Pretty sure Obzedat got away with exactly this when Ravnica was still legal. Wrong.
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Jan 7, 2015 02:10
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bhsman posted:Pretty sure Obzedat got away with exactly this when Ravnica was still legal. Technically what happened with Obzedat was that it was put into the exile zone via its own trigger, thus fulfilling Whip's requirement of exiling Obzedat. But Obzedat's trigger allows it to come back. Lightning Shrieker would definitely get exiled. Whip specifically says that it gets exiled instead of going into any other zone.
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Jan 7, 2015 02:15
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Toshimo posted:Wrong. Ghost Ride the Whip was an archetype. EDIT: qbert posted:Technically what happened with Obzedat was that it was put into the exile zone via its own trigger, thus fulfilling Whip's requirement of exiling Obzedat. But Obzedat's trigger allows it to come back. Lightning Shrieker would definitely get exiled. Whip specifically says that it gets exiled instead of going into any other zone. Oh hey, a much better answer. Thanks for pointing out the distinction.
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Jan 7, 2015 02:15
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I don't think Alesha is close to good enough to make people play R in the whip decks. She does nothing when she comes into play and just a 3/2 FS for 3 in standard is really really bad and she has to attack to be worth any vaule. The cards people are splashing for in whip decks (Rhino and Treasure cruise/Distainful Stroke) are SOOOOO much more powerful.
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Jan 7, 2015 02:44
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 I wonder what happens if you throw this in Soul Sisters.
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Jan 7, 2015 02:49
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First Bass posted:
It becomes a really bad card. Unlike in standard where it is a really good card.
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Jan 7, 2015 02:51
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TheKingofSprings posted:Unlike in standard where it is a really good card. It is? (Ignoring the prevalence of Erase) Any precedent for this kind of card?
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Jan 7, 2015 02:55
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Rinkles posted:It is? (Ignoring the prevalence of Erase) 
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Jan 7, 2015 02:56
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Rinkles posted:It is? (Ignoring the prevalence of Erase) No, its bad. Paying 3W to manifest bad unless you have infinite mana to pay for 2/2s with no abilities beyond paying even more mana to make them potentially something else.
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Jan 7, 2015 02:59
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I know that card! But I don't know how it faired in constructed.
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Jan 7, 2015 03:00
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Rinkles posted:I know that card! But I don't know how it faired in constructed. It was a great control finisher. Angry Grimace posted:No, its bad. Paying 3W to manifest bad unless you have infinite mana to pay for 2/2s with no abilities beyond paying even more mana to make them potentially something else. Yeah I guess control decks that have counterspells are never a thing or anything like that
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Jan 7, 2015 03:01
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Is that really better enough than Heliod to get played?
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Jan 7, 2015 03:03
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Did Heliod see much play? I don't think this is much better than Heliod, although the occasional demanifest-and-flip could be cool. vvv EDIT: Yeah, Mobilization was a brutal finisher in an era when creatures sucked and planeswalkers did not exist. LordSaturn fucked around with this message at 03:07 on Jan 7, 2015 |
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Jan 7, 2015 03:05
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I'm pretty sure Elspeth is the better control finisher still.
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Jan 7, 2015 03:06
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Attorney at Funk posted:Is that really better enough than Heliod to get played? LordSaturn posted:Did Heliod see much play? I don't think this is much better than Heliod, although the occasional demanifest-and-flip could be cool. Heliod was awful in no small part due to how much he cost. You can drop this turn 2 and sit on it for the rest of the game, and if you draw it late, you can play it and immediately make a token. There's a world of difference.
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Jan 7, 2015 03:07
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Attorney at Funk posted:Is that really better enough than Heliod to get played? Once again, great in limited.
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Jan 7, 2015 03:08
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TheKingofSprings posted:It was a great control finisher. I'm not sure I understand what you're getting at - you're saying control with counters would PLAY this or you'd play it against them? Because either sounds suspect. Control is a pretty minor archetype in the current standard and even if it was extra good, there are very few decks that would be cool with paying 3W just to make them uncounterable. If you're trying to say Control would PLAY this, then I don't know what to tell you. No they wouldn't. Angry Grimace fucked around with this message at 03:14 on Jan 7, 2015 |
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Jan 7, 2015 03:11
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Heliod tokens get blanked by: LITERALLY EVERY OTHER TOKEN IN STANDARD AND DOOMWAKE GIANT. Morph tokens don't. The math is super hard dudes. Toshimo fucked around with this message at 03:14 on Jan 7, 2015 |
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Jan 7, 2015 03:12
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Samael posted:Alesha, Who Smiles at Bees. alesha, who smiles at death(touch)
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Jan 7, 2015 03:12
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LordSaturn posted:vvv EDIT: Yeah, Mobilization was a brutal finisher in an era when creatures sucked Sounds perfect for this one, then
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Jan 7, 2015 03:13
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a card that lets you create a dude every turn with little to no opportunity cost in the mid to lategame is pretty good in this draft format, if FRF/KTK/KTK is anything like KTK/KTK/KTK. however, when the board stalls out it's often because it's cluttered with huge dudes, sometimes with lifelink, so getting a bunch of 2/2s isn't the best. I'd like to see how that plays out.
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Jan 7, 2015 03:13
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DAD LOST MY IPOD posted:a card that lets you create a dude every turn with little to no opportunity cost in the mid to lategame is pretty good in this draft format, if FRF/KTK/KTK is anything like KTK/KTK/KTK. however, when the board stalls out it's often because it's cluttered with huge dudes, sometimes with lifelink, so getting a bunch of 2/2s isn't the best. I'd like to see how that plays out. These are better than just 2/2s, though. It's basically "3W: Draw a card, if it's a noncreature, discard it and you get a 2/2." so this will break the stall pretty easily if your deck is any good by allowing you to dig through your deck for your bomb or finisher. Also just hitting any random crappy creature during a stall will gain you a ton of life thanks to it's trigger. I think this card will be quite strong in limited.
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Jan 7, 2015 03:24
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Ojetor posted:These are better than just 2/2s, though. It's basically "3W: Draw a card, if it's a noncreature, discard it and you get a 2/2." so this will break the stall pretty easily if your deck is any good by allowing you to dig through your deck for your bomb or finisher. Also just hitting any random crappy creature during a stall will gain you a ton of life thanks to it's trigger. I think this card will be quite strong in limited. I don't think it was ever disputed this was good in limited. Some duder said it was good in Standard.
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Jan 7, 2015 03:33
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Looks to me like a random whatever card that won't see any constructed play. If you're building a deck, I don't know why you would put this in it over half a dozen better options, depending on the archetype.
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Jan 7, 2015 04:31
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The decks that want a Mobilization effect don't play enough creatures to flip up using it to make it playable in Standard. In a control deck, I actually think it's worse than the lovely black enchantment in M15 which makes 2/2s, because that one can at least filter bad draws. This one just makes 2/2s for 4 and will sometimes 'kill' good cards by turning them into morphs (Elspeth, End Hostilities, etc). It'd be borderline playable in a white weenies deck, if Heliod (and Spear of Heliod) wasn't better there too.
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Jan 7, 2015 04:35
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DAD LOST MY IPOD posted:a card that lets you create a dude every turn with little to no opportunity cost in the mid to lategame is pretty good in this draft format, if FRF/KTK/KTK is anything like KTK/KTK/KTK. however, when the board stalls out it's often because it's cluttered with huge dudes, sometimes with lifelink, so getting a bunch of 2/2s isn't the best. I'd like to see how that plays out. Isn't draft gonna be FRF/FRF/KTK? That might chop down on the huge-dudes since most of what we've seen so far (aside from dragons) has been pretty small or just churns out colorless bears.
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Jan 7, 2015 04:36
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redstormpopcorn posted:Isn't draft gonna be FRF/FRF/KTK? That might chop down on the huge-dudes since most of what we've seen so far (aside from dragons) has been pretty small or just churns out colorless bears. Not F/K/K? Double small set seems miserable.
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Jan 7, 2015 04:42
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Rinkles posted:Not F/K/K? Double small set seems miserable. Its K/K/F.
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Jan 7, 2015 04:52
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Rinkles posted:Not F/K/K? Double small set seems miserable. Okay nope, I heard wrong. It's gonna be FRF/KTK/KTK, then draft will rotate to Fate/Dragons, but I haven't seen what the format there will be. FRF/DTK/DTK might be weird, have they ever put a set mid-draft like DTK/FRF/DTK? e: oh hey this was addressed like a week ago. http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/feature/designing-your-fate-2014-12-29 quote:The very first design decision made for Fate Reforged was "a small second set that's drafted BAA and CCB." That is, when Fate Reforged hits the shelf you will draft: Fate Reforged, Khans of Tarkir, Khans of Tarkir
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Jan 7, 2015 04:52
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ungulateman posted:This one just makes 2/2s for 4 and will sometimes 'kill' good cards by turning them into morphs (Elspeth, End Hostilities, etc). Would you make this same argument if it flipped cards from the bottom of the deck instead?
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Jan 7, 2015 04:56
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ungulateman posted:The decks that want a Mobilization effect don't play enough creatures to flip up using it to make it playable in Standard. You're not supposed to flip them, just beat down with 2/2s. Also Scry is a thing.
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Jan 7, 2015 05:00
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ungulateman posted:This one just makes 2/2s for 4 and will sometimes 'kill' good cards by turning them into morphs (Elspeth, End Hostilities, etc). do you understand probability at all
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Jan 7, 2015 05:01
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Jabor posted:Would you make this same argument if it flipped cards from the bottom of the deck instead? But standard has scry and Courser right now... manifesting the top card of your deck is not like milling it. You can be expected to know whether or not you want to manifest the top card of your library. That is to say, sometimes you will want to make one or two tokens, and doing so might get rid of the card you (think you) need. Gensuki fucked around with this message at 05:09 on Jan 7, 2015 |
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Jan 7, 2015 05:06
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Oh, no! What if I mill all my cool cards to the yard? It's a shame there's no card in Standard to benefit me by having a graveyard full of cards. Woe is me.
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Jan 7, 2015 05:14
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Gensuki posted:But standard has scry and Courser right now... manifesting the top card of your deck is not like milling it. You can be expected to know whether or not you want to manifest the top card of your library. Scrying doesn't actually interact with Manifest. No one would keep a crap card on top just to turn it into a 2/2. Courser works, but that means the deck has to be G/W, and I don't see this card being played in Abzan when those colors literally have too many good Standard staples to choose from right now. And how are people seeing this as a mill card? The card isn't actually going to your graveyard.
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Jan 7, 2015 05:16
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qbert posted:Scrying doesn't actually interact with Manifest. No one would keep a crap card on top just to turn it into a 2/2. I mean...it is a crappy card you know you can sacrifice. If you know the top card of your deck is a land, wouldn't it make more sense to look back at your hand, see some cool manifest card and say "sure, let's get rid of that one"? Then of course, the question becomes "are there any of those manifest cards worth playing" and the answer looks like no. Also, in constructed you probably wouldn't run any cards that "combo" with manifest since manifest is unreliable. Aside from lightform, none of the enchantments are playable unless they hit a creature...and even for lightform, that is mostly it being a unique effect in standard right now? Gensuki fucked around with this message at 05:28 on Jan 7, 2015 |
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Jan 7, 2015 05:17
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qbert posted:Scrying doesn't actually interact with Manifest. No one would keep a crap card on top just to turn it into a 2/2.
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Jan 7, 2015 05:36
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Wadjamaloo posted:What about the opposite, keeping a sweet card on top and electing not to manifest it. Or keeping it on top if it's a creature and basically paying 4 or whatever to draw a card.
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Jan 7, 2015 05:44
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From a value perspective it's probably correct to manifest blind and then play the scryland or whatever.
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Jan 7, 2015 05:49
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Kheru spellsnatcher flips for 3U if it is manifested. Thousand winds for 4UU. Are there other similar cards that have lower casting cost than morph cost? Is this very relevant for constructed?
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Jan 7, 2015 05:57
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