|
The TVN hate really is old and annoying. I'll always defend their older stuff here because, hey, there is no other way to watch it. No effort defending the new stuff though when OT does it better and quicker. Like come on, they're already beating you on this, be like GUIS and redirect your efforts elsewhere.
|
#
?
Jan 7, 2015 07:24
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 5, 2024 22:14 |
|
|
DiscoJ posted:You're critical of them taking a week to release stuff? Taking longer to release half-translated garbage than other groups do to release good translations that capture the actual meaning of what is being said, and is of terrible video quality compared to other groups, yes, yes I am critical of that. Maybe if they released good poo poo I wouldn't mind it, because it would be worth the wait, but as it is, gently caress them. Also what's this "well they really TRIED and you should be grateful for having anything at all" bullshit? The point of all this is, we don't have to be grateful for that anymore. There's so many other people doing it now, either subbing the current shows or going back and doing old untranslated ones or redoing the ones TVN did because they did an rear end-awful job, that no, you don't need to go "hey man thanks for this steaming pile of horseshit, really appreciate it." It's ok to not be thankful for garbage. Also seriously, that loving cultural whitewashing post. loving seriously. Cliff Racer posted:The TVN hate really is old and annoying. I'll always defend their older stuff here because, hey, there is no other way to watch it. No effort defending the new stuff though when OT does it better and quicker. Like come on, they're already beating you on this, be like GUIS and redirect your efforts elsewhere. Their old stuff, from what I understand, is actually worse, so let's not defend that.
|
|
#
?
Jan 7, 2015 07:41
|
|
|
EDIT: DiscoJ fucked around with this message at 07:53 on Jan 7, 2015 |
|
#
?
Jan 7, 2015 07:45
|
|
|
DiscoJ posted:I think I'll just wait for him to come and clarify things for himself. It's easy (and so, I suppose, 'dense') to read his post as just 'Here are three things I dislike about TVN.' It's really not unless you're trying to justify a stance of "Man Toku fans are SO UNGRATEFUL for subs". Like, you have to kind of be willfully dense to read it like that  . You have to take a half of a sentence out of the context to think that thought was its own separate thing.FAKE EDIT: Ah, see? Literally The Worst posted:Taking longer to release half-translated garbage than other groups do to release good translations that capture the actual meaning of what is being said, and is of terrible video quality compared to other groups, yes, yes I am critical of that. Maybe if they released good poo poo I wouldn't mind it, because it would be worth the wait, but as it is, gently caress them.
|
|
#
?
Jan 7, 2015 07:51
|
|
|
DiscoJ posted:I think I'll just wait for him to come and clarify things for himself. It's easy (and so, I suppose, 'dense') to read his post as just 'Here are three things I dislike about TVN.' He actually did it just fine, you wenis. Jesus Christ, how do you hone in on that one tree so well and yet miss the many other trees around it that make up the forest of "TVN Is Bad"-shire?
|
|
#
?
Jan 7, 2015 07:51
|
|
|
I am supremely grateful for groups like O-T and GUIS and KITSubs and MFC because they do a good job. I am not grateful for TVN because they suck a fat load of poo poo out of a rancid butt. Other people/groups (that dude who did the Gekiranger scrubs comes to mind) get poo poo on in this thread too when they do a piss-poor job, it's not like this a thing limited to TVN. They're just incredibly visible and people insist on defending them and demanding that we genuflect before some jackasses who don't loving translate half the poo poo because cultural whitewashing
|
|
#
?
Jan 7, 2015 07:54
|
|
|
DiscoJ posted:I'm not making fun of anyone. Just expressing my view point, same as you did. I just feel like there might be more people willing to sub more shows if there was more appreciation for the effort it takes. As it is, subbers get skewered for not attaining perfection. That's not limited to TVN and it's also not limited just to translation quality but obviously they're the most common things to hear about. The effort just isn't worth it. If you're subbing things because you want the praise of the masses (not that we don't actually get it, but it's not as memorable as the hate because that's how psychology works), you're doing it wrong. All the worst subbers I knew, the ones who put out poorly crafted subs and quit early, started out with this exact mindset, and then responded with your exact argument to justify them leaving. Nothing of value was lost.
|
|
#
?
Jan 7, 2015 08:02
|
|
|
AzraelNewtype posted:If you're subbing things because you want the praise of the masses (not that we don't actually get it, but it's not as memorable as the hate because that's how psychology works), you're doing it wrong. All the worst subbers I knew, the ones who put out poorly crafted subs and quit early, started out with this exact mindset, and then responded with your exact argument to justify them leaving. Nothing of value was lost. Why does TVN keep going then, because like if I need to switch up tactics to make them stop I will do it in a second
|
|
#
?
Jan 7, 2015 08:03
|
|
|
Literally The Worst posted:Why does TVN keep going then, because like if I need to switch up tactics to make them stop I will do it in a second  Because people are still watching them? That the best reason I can come up with.
|
|
#
?
Jan 7, 2015 08:12
|
|
|
OK, I probably did jump on the speed thing since it's such a common complaint when it comes to fansubs. But anyway, my main point doesn't change and, to be clear, it's not limited to TVN (though of course they are the focus). The current attitude of 'Well, OT are here and they're better than TVN so "gently caress them".' is exactly the problem. So yes, remembering that we are all fans of the same (limited range) of shows and that no-one is getting paid for the work they put in, some appreciation (or at least, less negativity) for the work that goes into it would be grand. This isn't a complex issue, just common courtesy. The fandom wouldn't be as big as it is without the effort of fansubbers (TVN, OT, GUIS, AESIR, et. al). If you don't trust the quality of a subber's translations or like the quality of their encodes, that's one thing and that's understandable. However, there's no need to express as much hate and exaggerate as much as people in this very thread (and some other boards) do every time TVN is brought up.
|
|
#
?
Jan 7, 2015 08:14
|
|
|
Counterpoint there is absolutely no need to fall all over yourself defending them because let's recap what they've done: *Bad translations of shows, some so bad that they're not even close to being accurate (I want to say Blade is the primary offender? I'm not sure, nobody else has subbed Blade yet for me to compare it to, I'm going off what I've heard here), almost always leaving a bunch of poo poo untranslated because they're weebs and CULTURAL WHITEWASHING *lovely encoding *I guess they look pretty if you need bright lights and colored text to read? But it's still encoded awful and as a result looks like poo poo in the end Boy howdy that's some poo poo to defend
|
|
#
?
Jan 7, 2015 08:17
|
|
|
Dubs are better anyway.
|
|
#
?
Jan 7, 2015 08:21
|
|
|
DiscoJ posted:OK, I probably did jump on the speed thing since it's such a common complaint when it comes to fansubs. Wow, so I have OT to blame for all the lovely posters on /m/? AZ! I'M CALLING YOU OUT BUDDY! No seriously DiscoJ your point is stupid and dumb and banal at best and you should really just drop it instead of posting things like "Yes I was actually wrong and didn't understand what any of you said, so let me just skip a bunch of posts then make the same point in different words!" Also, don't care what you're doing but if you're doing it out of love of the craft or pure gumption or whatever it still doesn't make lovely work good or not mock worthy. Hope that helps.
|
|
#
?
Jan 7, 2015 08:22
|
|
|
I'd sort of mellowed on them, coming to a live-and-let-live sort of thing with the whole thing, but then takenoko had the unmitigated audacity to say this:takenoko, leader of tv-nihon posted:I don't think any of our fans take the trolls seriously, but no one takes the Westboro guys seriously either. That doesn't make them any less annoying when you see their actions. It's just a sad reminder that there's a wide spectrum of people in the world, and some people don't have anything better to do than act like children. Trolls, in this case, was referring not to people actively harassing them, but people who were pointing out their dizzying array of failures to translate basically to themselves. Comparing onoretvn to Westboro is insane. gently caress him.
|
|
#
?
Jan 7, 2015 08:23
|
|
|
AzraelNewtype posted:I'd sort of mellowed on them, coming to a live-and-let-live sort of thing with the whole thing, but then takenoko had the unmitigated audacity to say this: Ahaha this one is new to me. Jesus, gently caress that guy and everything he does.
|
|
#
?
Jan 7, 2015 08:26
|
|
|
I genuinely wish that there were options besides tvn for a lot of things. That being said, I've been watching badly fansubbed anime for over a decade at this point, and compared to that, tvn isn't the worst offender I've experienced. Can we go back to our karate bugmen, spandex heroes and japanese manspiders now?
|
|
#
?
Jan 7, 2015 08:28
|
|
|
I know I keep saying this but I can't stress it enough: Takenoko literally made a blog post responding to "why don't you translate everything, you rear end in a top hat" with "Because if we translated everything, that would be bad. You can't translate things! What do you think we are, translators? You're whitewashing Japan to make it more American ugh you loving dirty Japan-haters." That's right, he responded to "why don't you translate everything" with a fancy way of saying "translating? that's racist" Seriously read it yourself http://www.tvnihon.com/node/427 BENGHAZI 2 fucked around with this message at 08:44 on Jan 7, 2015 |
|
#
?
Jan 7, 2015 08:31
|
|
|
ZenMasterBullshit posted:Wow, so I have OT to blame for all the lovely posters on /m/? AZ! I'M CALLING YOU OUT BUDDY! What did I skip? My focus has always been on the attitude of the fandom in relation to fansubbers. I've been 'defending' TVN's (and everyone else's) effort, not their quality. Anyway, I'll probably be back to restate my point in different words yet again in another few weeks or months when the 'what show/subs should I watch' discussion devolves into sub-chat again. But great to see TVN's leadership continuing not to help matters with their equally bad attitude though.
|
|
#
?
Jan 7, 2015 08:48
|
|
|
DiscoJ posted:I've been 'defending' TVN's (and everyone else's) effort, not their quality. Trying really hard does not make up for failing miserably. I'd also debate how hard they try considering how miserably they fail and how much they leave untranslated.
|
|
#
?
Jan 7, 2015 08:55
|
|
|
DiscoJ posted:What did I skip? My focus has always been on the attitude of the fandom in relation to fansubbers. I've been 'defending' TVN's (and everyone else's) effort, not their quality. Most other subbers is well-regarded by the community. It's specifically TV-N which people dislike, because of specific issues with them (bad subs, bad quality, lovely attitudes, reportedly bullying starting sub groups). The only difference is that TV-N has done a lot of stuff, and are often the only option available, which makes recommendations harder, and emphasizes the need for better people.
|
|
#
?
Jan 7, 2015 09:09
|
|
|
There's definitely people who take some poo poo (GekiKnight) but nobody takes it to the same degree or as universally as TVN.
|
|
#
?
Jan 7, 2015 09:11
|
|
|
Defending TVN from people making GBS threads on them doesn't make very much sense when a not-insignificant part of the reason why TVN's being shat on by so many various fan communities is their own attitude. They're a primadonna group who got big and proud by virtue of being first and the best thing one can say about them is that their ubiquitous presence in the toku fan community inspired other, even more hard-working and level-headed people to put in even more effort to translate this stuff for everybody else. Often in a timely manner, to boot. Not to say that TVN didn't allegedly try to stop their erstwhile competition through petty and underhanded means, but even that's less important to people than the actual quality of their work.
|
|
#
?
Jan 7, 2015 11:53
|
|
|
TVN completely mangled the dadjokes in Kyoryuger. For that alone they can go screw.
|
|
#
?
Jan 7, 2015 13:27
|
|
|
Literally The Worst posted:I know I keep saying this but I can't stress it enough: Takenoko literally made a blog post responding to "why don't you translate everything, you rear end in a top hat" with "Because if we translated everything, that would be bad. You can't translate things! What do you think we are, translators? You're whitewashing Japan to make it more American ugh you loving dirty Japan-haters." I can sympathize with a stance of not wanting to corrupt original meaning; I personally have made the case for the inclusion of honorifics a few times...but what TV-N is prone to do is under-translating. Everyone's favorite "keikaiku means plan" translator note comes to mind. Of something like that can be "explained" with a three word note, then there was no reason to not translate it in the first place. Oh and anyone saying "be thankful we have anything at all for fansubs" is only half-right. Yeah, I'm glad that TV-Nihon has subbed a handful of shows that nobody else has gotten to yet...but if they're doing a shoddy job, it's more than reasonable to call them out on it. And if they do a consistently shoddy job, it's more than reasonable to search high and low for alternatives and continue to call them out.
|
|
#
?
Jan 7, 2015 14:09
|
|
|
You know, this whole bitchfest has made me realize that I really really appreciate MFC's work on bringing Zubat to us. Here was a Toku show that had gotten a few early subs, and had been languishing unfinished for years and years, and then suddenly BAM, out of nowhere, quality subs, legible and sensible and now the series is complete and everyone can (and should) enjoy it. What I'm saying is: if you haven't seen Zubat yet, go track it down and watch it. All of it.
|
|
#
?
Jan 7, 2015 14:49
|
|
|
jivjov posted:I personally have made the case for the inclusion of honorifics a few times That's because you're dumb, jivjov.
|
|
#
?
Jan 7, 2015 17:25
|
|
|
Everyone should also watch V3 because Hiroshi Miyauchi owns. Too bad there's no subs for JAKQ and the group that picked up Gorenger after Bad Apple disappeared is... suspect at best
DICKS FOR DINNER fucked around with this message at 17:29 on Jan 7, 2015 |
|
#
?
Jan 7, 2015 17:26
|
|
|
Cricken_Nigfops posted:What I'm saying is: if you haven't seen Zubat yet, go track it down and watch it. All of it. It is, after all, the number one Toku in all Japan. Literally The Worst posted:That's because you're dumb, jivjov. You can disagree with me all you'd like...but you actually become Literally The Worst if you call me dumb over my subtitle preference on Japanese children's programming.
|
|
#
?
Jan 7, 2015 17:35
|
|
|
jivjov posted:You can disagree with me all you'd like...but you actually become Literally The Worst if you call me dumb over my subtitle preference on Japanese children's programming. jivjov posted:I personally have made the case for the inclusion of honorifics a few times Man, start talking about TV-N suddenly every bad opinion in the thread comes out. Literally The Worst posted:That's because you're dumb, jivjov.  .
|
|
#
?
Jan 7, 2015 17:40
|
|
|
jivjov posted:It is, after all, the number one Toku in all Japan. It's a real dumb opinion to hold, the honorifics add exactly zero that can't be communicated in a way that people who don't speak Japanese and thus don't understand honorifics will actually comprehend. It's more weeb poo poo about the ~subtle nuances of Japanese~ or whatever
|
|
#
?
Jan 7, 2015 17:44
|
|
|
Fooley posted:TVN completely mangled the dadjokes in Kyouuuuryuuuuugeruuuuuu. For that alone they can go screw. Fixed
|
|
#
?
Jan 7, 2015 19:19
|
|
|
ZenMasterBullshit posted:Man, start talking about TV-N suddenly every bad opinion in the thread comes out. But I was already in the thread 
|
|
#
?
Jan 7, 2015 19:30
|
|
|
didn't the TVN Kyoryuger subs also like totally miss the word play on calling them Braves and just went for the generic 'Hero'?
|
|
#
?
Jan 7, 2015 20:42
|
|
|
No, TVN called them Braves. There was a whole onoretvn post about how it was actually kinda unintentionally offensive.
|
|
#
?
Jan 7, 2015 20:45
|
|
|
Yeah, uh, 'brave' as a noun for a person has a pretty distinct racial connotation in America which makes that situation a pretty good example of why you don't always want to translate as literally as you can.
|
|
#
?
Jan 7, 2015 20:54
|
|
|
Literally The Worst posted:It's a real dumb opinion to hold, the honorifics add exactly zero that can't be communicated in a way that people who don't speak Japanese and thus don't understand honorifics will actually comprehend. It's more weeb poo poo about the ~subtle nuances of Japanese~ or whatever I find the nuance of honorifics to be important, but it's not a deal breaker for me. I'm okay losing that nuance if that means things that really do need translations (like the aforementioned keikaiku incident) are taken care of. And you'll note (and this goes for a handful of other posters too) that I'm not calling anyone (or their opinions) dumb just because I disagree with them. It's my own personal preference, and I completely understand those who don't want to see the honorifics.
|
|
#
?
Jan 7, 2015 20:55
|
|
|
Brother Entropy posted:Yeah, uh, 'brave' as a noun for a person has a pretty distinct racial connotation in America which makes that situation a pretty good example of why you don't always want to translate as literally as you can. True. I had thought it was an interesting idea, but I also understand it's entirely possible such a thing could be highly offensive. I guess it's better to err on the side of caution in this case. I must have been watching Over Time subs but I wasn't downloading them at the time, just watching them.
|
|
#
?
Jan 7, 2015 20:56
|
|
|
Waffleman_ posted:No, TVN called them Braves. There was a whole onoretvn post about how it was actually kinda unintentionally offensive. I also found it weird when I watched The King of Braves GaoGaiGar. What's the deal here?
|
|
#
?
Jan 7, 2015 21:05
|
|
|
jivjov posted:I find the nuance of honorifics to be important, but it's not a deal breaker for me. I'm okay losing that nuance if that means things that really do need translations (like the aforementioned keikaiku incident) are taken care of. The problem with untranslated honorifics as Dickeye pointed out is that a non-Japanese speaker would have no frame of reference as to what they mean, so they're just weird syllables attached to the end of names. A good translator will be able to pull out their "nuanced" meaning by localizing, and character relationships will be obvious through context. Untranslated honorifics are just dumb and lazy.
|
|
#
?
Jan 7, 2015 21:06
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 5, 2024 22:14 |
|
|
jivjov posted:I find the nuance of honorifics to be important, but it's not a deal breaker for me. I'm okay losing that nuance if that means things that really do need translations (like the aforementioned keikaiku incident) are taken care of. Guess what if you can't find a way to communicate that nuance for people who don't speak Japanese? You shouldn't be subbing poo poo for people who don't speak Japanese. Literally the point of subbing is so that people who don't speak the language can understand it, leaving the nuance In The original language utterly misses that point. And this is why you're dumb.
|
|
#
?
Jan 7, 2015 21:31
|
|