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Josef K. Sourdust posted:The IRA are/were Irish nationalists. They have never advocated the forced conversion of anyone to Catholicism nor the murder of non-Catholics and were responsible for the murders of many Catholics in the security services and drug dealers and petty criminals who were Catholic. This is sort of what I'm getting at. Motives are usually (though not always!) more complicated than having membership of a religion.
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Jan 7, 2015 19:40
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Droopy Goines posted:I'm curious. Who do you think can help curb Islamic extremism? Stop destroying entire nations with century-old colonialist policies. Powercrazy posted:I hope that France can finally start talking about getting serious with gun control after this. There is no chance these AKs were registered and permitted weapons. They came in through smuggling channels, along with an RPG.
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Jan 7, 2015 19:40
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Josef K. Sourdust posted:The IRA are/were Irish nationalists. They have never advocated the forced conversion of anyone to Catholicism nor the murder of non-Catholics and were responsible for the murders of many Catholics in the security services and drug dealers and petty criminals who were Catholic. What about the huge Catholic vs Protestant conflict during The Troubles?
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Jan 7, 2015 19:42
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computer parts posted:Outside of the Catholic Church, no. Children often retain the political party of their parents, their party affiliation is often tied to geographical location and the surrounding community and their peer group. It informs their morals and values, and affects the manner in which they support political figures and social policies. Often, the nature of the party has changed drastically in the previous decades, and old opinions of that party may no longer be relevant.
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Jan 7, 2015 19:44
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The IRA may not have described themselves as fundamentalist, but their entire goal was the absorption of Northern Ireland into the Republic. The Republic of Ireland during the troubles was a loving Catholic theocracy in all but name. Point out a single institution that didn't have the Church woven into the fabric of it and I'll give you a cookie. The difference is people in Ireland stopped going to church because they realized that the way things were going was ruining their lives and making life for future generations unlivable (hence why everyone was leaving and they're trying to get people back these days).
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Jan 7, 2015 19:44
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lol muslims kill people over the stupidest poo poo
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Jan 7, 2015 19:45
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I think it would be important to distinguish between violent acts that are seemingly based on religious extremism like this one may be, though France has a horrific colonialist history, and violent acts based on political grievances which I would say are arguably more legitimate. Though both sets of acts may be done by people who identify with "radical Islam'
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Jan 7, 2015 19:45
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CommieGIR posted:What about the huge Catholic vs Protestant conflict during The Troubles? My post: khwarezm posted:Shocking as it may be to find out but the IRA did not fight for a theocratic society and the expulsion of all protestants from Ireland, the framing of the troubles as Protestant versus Catholic is a crude simplification that ignores the fact that first and foremost it was an ethnic conflict with religion as the most obvious division between the two sections of society. There's a reason that the usual way of referring to either side if you actually live in Ireland isn't 'Protestant versus Catholic' but 'Nationalist versus Loyalist', simply put the Loyalists mostly represent English and Scottish migrants who arrived from the 16th century onwards and valued their British identity and protestant religion to distinguish them from local Gaelic Catholic Irish who were heavily displaced by these settlers. Almost all other cultural markers between these two groups are irrelevant to religion. For example the Irish language, dead as it may be, and the Gaelic games are important to Nationalist identity in Ulster. labeling it as a mere religious dispute is so loving ignorant I can't even.
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Jan 7, 2015 19:46
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CommieGIR posted:What about the huge Catholic vs Protestant conflict during The Troubles? Largely tribal/national loyalties that tended to break down along sectarian lines. There weren't any theological differences relevant. Many churches on both sides worked against violence and wanted harmony. It is complicated but fundamentalism never came into it, though sectarian schisms did.
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Jan 7, 2015 19:46
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ronniegardocki posted:lol muslims kill people over the stupidest poo poo white people kill over important poo poo like the amount of melatonin in your skin being too high
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Jan 7, 2015 19:46
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WoodrowSkillson posted:Children often retain the political party of their parents, their party affiliation is often tied to geographical location and the surrounding community and their peer group. It informs their morals and values, and affects the manner in which they support political figures and social policies. Often, the nature of the party has changed drastically in the previous decades, and old opinions of that party may no longer be relevant. All of those apply to race.
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Jan 7, 2015 19:47
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SedanChair posted:Stop destroying entire nations with century-old colonialist policies. There isn't an RPG
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Jan 7, 2015 19:47
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SedanChair posted:They came in through smuggling channels, along with an RPG. SedanChair posted:along with an RPG. What? They had/have and RPG? 
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Jan 7, 2015 19:47
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CommieGIR posted:What about the huge Catholic vs Protestant conflict during The Troubles? The Protestants largely identified as British while the Catholics thought themselves Irish. The IRA wanted to be part of Ireland while UVF and others wanted to remain part of the UK. Religion served as the deciding factor in what divided Northern Ireland, so in that case you could say that religion was at the base at the issue since it largely determined whether you were Irish or British (in that you were from a Catholic or Protestant family), but both groups, particulalry the IRA, used primariliy nationaliststic arguments and justifications for their actions.
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Jan 7, 2015 19:47
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ronniegardocki posted:lol muslims kill people over the stupidest poo poo Seems shrewd enough to me. They'll encourage the flowering of French fascism and sharpen bigotry and hatred towards all people who appear foreign, which in turn will drive recruitment and further attacks. e: Loving Africa Chaps posted:There isn't an RPG Ah, was that misreported?
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Jan 7, 2015 19:48
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Josef K. Sourdust posted:Largely tribal/national loyalties that tended to break down along sectarian lines. There weren't any theological differences relevant. Many churches on both sides worked against violence and wanted harmony. It is complicated but fundamentalism never came into it, though sectarian schisms did. quote:A key issue at stake was the constitutional status of Northern Ireland. Unionists and loyalists, who are mostly Ulster Protestants, generally want Northern Ireland to remain within the United Kingdom. Irish nationalists and republicans, who are mostly Catholics, generally want it to leave the United Kingdom and join a united Ireland. Another key issue during the early period was civil rights for the Catholic minority who until the early 1970s were discriminated against by government services, by a quasi-military reserve police force Randarkman posted:The Protestants largely identified as British while the Catholics thought themselves Irish. The IRA wanted to be part of Ireland while UVF and others wanted to remain part of the UK. Religion served as the deciding factor in what divided Northern Ireland, so in that case you could say that religion was at the base at the issue since it largely determined whether you were Irish or British (in that you were from a Catholic or Protestant family), but both groups, particulalry the IRA, used primariliy nationaliststic arguments and justifications for their actions. Fair enough.
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Jan 7, 2015 19:48
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computer parts posted:All of those apply to race. Only no one will claim you can't leave the GOP, nor will they claim you are racist for opposing them.
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Jan 7, 2015 19:49
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SedanChair posted:Stop destroying entire nations with century-old colonialist policies. My mistake, I thought I would get a real answer.
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Jan 7, 2015 19:49
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SedanChair posted:Seems shrewd enough to me. They'll encourage the flowering of French fascism and sharpen bigotry and hatred towards all people who appear foreign, which in turn will drive recruitment and further attacks. That's the anarchist argument for terrorism, I'm pretty sure they were primarily motivated by hitting back against those who had insulted their religion.
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Jan 7, 2015 19:49
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Josef K. Sourdust posted:Largely tribal/national loyalties that tended to break down along sectarian lines. There weren't any theological differences relevant. Many churches on both sides worked against violence and wanted harmony. It is complicated but fundamentalism never came into it, though sectarian schisms did. E: Yes, the Republic of Ireland was a hugely Catholic country but that was largely an upshot of resistance to the Church of Ireland (protestant) siding with landowners (largely British). Hence the allegiance to the Catholic church. You can't see the whole picture without factoring in clan, political, tribal, class loyalties, largely inherited. Theology barely comes into it.
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Jan 7, 2015 19:50
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WoodrowSkillson posted:Only no one will claim you can't leave the GOP, nor will they claim you are racist for opposing them. People will claim that about being Jewish though. I guess religions are closer to race.
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Jan 7, 2015 19:51
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So, who was responsible for the Fatwa issued towards the editor?
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Jan 7, 2015 19:52
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CommieGIR posted:Fair enough. 
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Jan 7, 2015 19:52
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Broken Cog posted:So, who was responsible for the Fatwa issued towards the editor? Whoever issued it I guess. There's no Pope in Islam.
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Jan 7, 2015 19:53
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Periodiko posted:Also, just for the record, the essence of this is total horseshit. There are violent extremist Buddhist monks in Myanmar slaughtering people en masse, and there are tons of examples of Hindu terrorism and mob violence, to the extent that I'm kind of amazed you included Hindus at all. Please. Buddhists aren't killing people because of Buddha. Hindus aren't raping people because of Shiva. Bad people exist all over the world, no doubt about it. I am not trying to defend evil acts. The world can be a bad place. The key difference between what you are talking about and what I am talking about is that extremist Muslims JUSTIFY their actions by the tenets of their religion. This is why you see the same sorts of attacks in different parts of the world: Muslims targeting and killing civilians.
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Jan 7, 2015 19:55
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Randarkman posted:Whoever issued it I guess. There's no Pope in Islam. Yeah, that's why I was wondering. Some reports I read said that he had had a Fatwa issued on him quite some time ago, but I couldn't find any details on who issued it.
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Jan 7, 2015 19:55
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Droopy Goines posted:My mistake, I thought I would get a real answer. I'm surprised at your disengagement, that's definitely a real answer. It's certainly a more real answer than "Fix your poo poo, Islam."
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Jan 7, 2015 19:56
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Randarkman posted:Whoever issued it I guess. There's no Pope in Islam. With the notable exception of Ismaili Muslims, who do follow a single Imam, the Aga Khan. But that's a minority within a minority. Sunni Islam (and the perpetrators of today's attacks, if Muslim, are likely Sunni) lacks a single leader.
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Jan 7, 2015 19:56
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Arkane posted:Please. Buddhists aren't killing people because of Buddha. Hindus aren't raping people because of Shiva. Bad people exist all over the world, no doubt about it. I am not trying to defend evil acts. The world can be a bad place. I note you do not mention Christians and Jews up there.
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Jan 7, 2015 19:56
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This is a pretty good read on Islam and the Islamic State. It's a bit long so I'd just bookmark it and come back later, if I were you: http://www.brookings.edu/research/opinions/2014/10/31-roots-of-islamic-state-appeal-hamid quote:Political scientists, including myself, have tended to see religion, ideology, and identity as epiphenomenal—products of a given set of material factors. We are trained to believe in the primacy of “politics.” This isn’t necessarily incorrect, but it can sometimes obscure the independent power of ideas that seem, to much of the Western world, quaint and archaic. As Robert Kagan recently wrote, “For a quarter-century, Americans have been told that at the end of history lies boredom rather than great conflict.” The rise of ISIS is only the most extreme example of the way in which liberal determinism—the notion that history moves with intent toward a more reasonable, secular future—has failed to explain the realities of the Middle East. It should by now go without saying that the overwhelming majority of Muslims do not share ISIS’s view of religion, but that’s not really the most interesting or relevant question. ISIS’s rise to prominence has something to do with Islam, but what is that something?
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Jan 7, 2015 19:57
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computer parts posted:People will claim that about being Jewish though. I guess religions are closer to race. I am undone by one example, truly my analogy of groups that one can leave and join throughout their life despite there also being strong social pressure not to do so is flawed to its core.
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Jan 7, 2015 19:57
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SedanChair posted:
It was one idiot 'witness' who's said it and been parotted by media
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Jan 7, 2015 19:57
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WoodrowSkillson posted:I am undone by one example, truly my analogy of groups that one can leave and join throughout their life despite there also being strong social pressure not to do so is flawed to its core. It is, thanks for noticing.
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Jan 7, 2015 19:57
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Randarkman posted:That's the anarchist argument for terrorism, I'm pretty sure they were primarily motivated by hitting back against those who had insulted their religion. Nonetheless, the methods and rationale (inflame->isolate->recruit) are similar.
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Jan 7, 2015 19:58
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WoodrowSkillson posted:I am undone by one example, truly my analogy of groups that one can leave and join throughout their life despite there also being strong social pressure not to do so is flawed to its core. If you are an atheist you are a racist, doncha know.
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Jan 7, 2015 19:59
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khwarezm posted:If you are an atheist you are a racist, doncha know. It's highly likely because many atheists are white.
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Jan 7, 2015 19:59
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computer parts posted:It is, thanks for noticing. Please explain how, since all you did was throw race in as well, and essentially link race, political ideology, and religion into one thing.
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Jan 7, 2015 19:59
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computer parts posted:It's highly likely because many atheists are white. China, mostly white.
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Jan 7, 2015 19:59
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Randarkman posted:Whoever issued it I guess. There's no Pope in Islam. There is. His name is Caliph Ibrahim and he's holed up somewhere between Mosul and Ar-Raqqa.
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Jan 7, 2015 19:59
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computer parts posted:It's highly likely because many atheists are white. You are a gem.
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Jan 7, 2015 20:00
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