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Nessus posted:Can you elaborate on that? She's a fascinating character. (Like where does this come from, I'm guessing there is stuff in the Giant Tomes of Elf-Lore, royalties to Chris Tolkien) Histories of Middle Earth. At least 10 volumes long but jam packed with drafts and information.
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Jan 7, 2015 06:26
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Nessus posted:Can you elaborate on that? She's a fascinating character. (Like where does this come from, I'm guessing there is stuff in the Giant Tomes of Elf-Lore, royalties to Chris Tolkien) Specifically, I'm getting this from Unfinished Tales, which has a lengthy section on Galadriel and Celeborn as they develop and Galadriel is introduced into the Silmarillion. Tolkien mentions this in early drafts and doesn't explicitly contradict it in later ones, but in brief, his basic elements are that "Galadriel" is a Sindarinified form of Alatariel, which is Quenya for, roughly, "Blondie". This is Celeborn's pet name for her. Her birth names are Artanis ("noble woman") and Nerwen ("man-maiden"). She excelled in hunting, games, and lore in Valinor, and sought with her lover Celeborn (this use of "lover" contradicts some later Silmarillion stuff, which may be a misstatement or may be an interesting clue depending on whether Tolkien left any notes about his proposed changes for the second edition of LOTR) to prove her capabilities by going forth and enlightening the untutored of Arda. Feanor once asked for a strand of her hair and she told him to go to hell, but when he swore the Oath she went along with the vanguard of the Noldor, seeking a place to put her theories to work. At this point the narrative differs greatly depending on the draft, but overall it's suggested she and Celeborn left Beleriand well before the downfall of the Noldor states and lived in the Old Forest, or at the very least she removed herself before things got really ugly. From there, a ban was set on her return to Valinor, unlike the rest of the Noldor, until such a time as she atoned for her imperialistic behavior. She then ran a small fief under Gil-galad before founding Hollin, leaving that to her cousin once removed Celebrimbor, and deciding to live a pastoral life in the small Silvan kingdom of Lothlorien. When Amroth left with Nimrodel, she took over by default but refused to crown herself, leading eventually to her role in LOTR, after which she tears apart Dol Guldur and then heads south for her granddaughter's wedding. Then she passes westward.
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Jan 7, 2015 06:27
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Yeah, he made a lot of changes to Galadriel in later revisions. From what I remember, in early drafts she's complicit in the general sin of the Noldor (though not the worst bits); in later revisions she's more like a Virgin Mary figure who just happens to have pointy ears. Overall I think the earlier versions of her character where she's more flawed are more interesting / "better", but that's my own personal preference. Given the state of things you can probably consider either or both "canon", perhaps as competing historical accounts or different versions of the Red Book.
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Jan 7, 2015 07:26
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Another movie question: did the Hobbit actually have Dune worms in it?
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Jan 7, 2015 15:57
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SirPhoebos posted:Another movie question: did the Hobbit actually have Dune worms in it? Bilbo says this: "Tell me what you want done, and I will try it, if I have to walk from here to the East of East and fight the wild were-worms in the Last Desert." And that's literally the only time they are mentioned ever. Anywhere.
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Jan 7, 2015 16:29
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SirPhoebos posted:Another movie question: did the Hobbit actually have Dune worms in it? There's a brief mention of the "Were-worms of the Last Desert" when Bilbo agrees to join Thorin. They have literally no other references anywhere in anything else Tolkien wrote (unlike giants, which appear in early drafts and outlines for LOTR) and people have speculated endlessly. Of course, given that "worm" is used fairly often to refer to dragons in Tolkien, Bilbo may have been saying "dragon-men" instead.
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Jan 7, 2015 16:30
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There are also those nameless creatures that burrow really deep and even Sauron has forgotten them or something but that would be even more lame.
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Jan 7, 2015 16:45
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SirPhoebos posted:Another movie question: did the Hobbit actually have Dune worms in it? Oh God no. No no no. Like many other aspects of the movie, they put those in so they have more material for the video game adaptations.
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Jan 7, 2015 17:21
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Effectronica posted:Specifically, I'm getting this from Unfinished Tales, which has a lengthy section on Galadriel and Celeborn as they develop and Galadriel is introduced into the Silmarillion. Tolkien mentions this in early drafts and doesn't explicitly contradict it in later ones, but in brief, his basic elements are that "Galadriel" is a Sindarinified form of Alatariel, which is Quenya for, roughly, "Blondie". This is Celeborn's pet name for her. Her birth names are Artanis ("noble woman") and Nerwen ("man-maiden"). She excelled in hunting, games, and lore in Valinor, and sought with her lover Celeborn (this use of "lover" contradicts some later Silmarillion stuff, which may be a misstatement or may be an interesting clue depending on whether Tolkien left any notes about his proposed changes for the second edition of LOTR) to prove her capabilities by going forth and enlightening the untutored of Arda. Feanor once asked for a strand of her hair and she told him to go to hell, but when he swore the Oath she went along with the vanguard of the Noldor, seeking a place to put her theories to work. I love the idea that Galadriel gave to Gimli, who asked humbly, what she would not give to Feanor, her rightful king.
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Jan 7, 2015 17:27
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VanSandman posted:I love the idea that Galadriel gave to Gimli, who asked humbly, what she would not give to Feanor, her rightful king. Feanor asked three times for a single strand of her hair. Gimli asks for one strand of hair and gets three. Nice little Feanor own right there.
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Jan 7, 2015 18:24
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VanSandman posted:I love the idea that Galadriel gave to Gimli, who asked humbly, what she would not give to Feanor, her rightful king. It's kind of a recapitulation of that bit from the Silmarillion really. Feanor (who was at least listening to Morgoth at times) makes a demand because he wants it and gets declined, while Gimli (created, at great remove, from Aule) makes the same request with a humble heart and love for beauty alone, and gets what he asked for and more. It kind of puts an end to all that Elf/Dwarf rage too; after that, isn't the only sign of elf/dwarf tension Gimli and Legolas bickering like a married couple? e: Oh, apparently Galadriel's hair may have inspired Feanor to make the silmarils. Oopsie! Nessus fucked around with this message at 19:29 on Jan 7, 2015 |
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Jan 7, 2015 19:07
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Nessus posted:Well, does the king have a right to ask for creepy little trophies of you? Some would say yes but I think the idea there is 'no he does not,' which is probably about what ancient Norse would have said too. That just means Galadriel owns even harder.
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Jan 7, 2015 19:37
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HIJK posted:That just means Galadriel owns even harder. It also means "gently caress Feanor", which is a good general guideline.
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Jan 7, 2015 19:49
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Unless you're Nerdanel
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Jan 7, 2015 20:06
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Nessus posted:Well, does the king have a right to ask for creepy little trophies of you? Some would say yes but I think the idea there is 'no he does not,' which is probably about what ancient Norse would have said too. There wasn't really a ton of dwarf/elf angst for the most part...they were just like "it's been a long time since we were allies and the dwarfs awoke the balrog so we're kinda miffed at them for that" I think people's perceptions about dwarf and elf relations, at least in lotr, are a bit colored by the movie where they played it up a ton. Gimli and legolas never argued about who should take the ring or about trusting one another etc.
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Jan 8, 2015 02:37
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Levitate posted:There wasn't really a ton of dwarf/elf angst for the most part...they were just like "it's been a long time since we were allies and the dwarfs awoke the balrog so we're kinda miffed at them for that"
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Jan 8, 2015 04:11
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Well, there was the whole Sack of Doriath thing too, some elves may have still held grudges about that. And weren't dwarves a little pissed nobody else helped them out when they cleared out all those orc fortresses to avenge Thror(or Thrain, I forget which) e: Theres also the fact that many dwarves were less wholesome than the Longbeards/Durin's Folk and fought for Sauron. Pong Daddy fucked around with this message at 06:57 on Jan 8, 2015 |
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Jan 8, 2015 06:55
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I know LOTR's draft has been published in annotated form in a series of volumes but has there ever been a move to publish the final draft as a single volume? Also, can anyone give a rough comparison of word length between draft and published version?
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Jan 8, 2015 15:24
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Josef K. Stardust posted:I know LOTR's draft has been published in annotated form in a series of volumes but has there ever been a move to publish the final draft as a single volume?
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Jan 8, 2015 17:03
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There's also this: http://www.amazon.com/Lord-Rings-50th-Anniversary-Edition/dp/0618517650/ref=pd_sxp_f_pt I just got this myself over the holidays and am reading through it now, it's a beautiful book. Runes are printed in red, the maps are fold-out and huge, there are color prints of the pages of the Book of Mazarbul.
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Jan 8, 2015 17:06
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BatteredFeltFedora posted:It also means "gently caress Feanor", which is a good general guideline. Fëanor was the best elf who ever elfed. Anyone who says anything else is just a betahobbit.
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Jan 8, 2015 17:11
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These are one-vol. editions of the text as originally published (and very nice ones too!) but I was asking about the draft, which I think C Tolkein published split up in different books, with notes etc. I wondered if the original draft of LOTR had been published as per the original manuscript (as I think the draft has more material than the final version). E: Sorry if my question was a bit fuzzy!
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Jan 8, 2015 17:22
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Hogge Wild posted:Fëanor was the best elf who ever elfed. Anyone who says anything else is just a betahobbit. Fëanor alpha as gently caress.
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Jan 8, 2015 18:11
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People have been a bit smug at you, but to answer your question, there's no such thing as a "single original draft" that got cut down for publication. Tolkien worked on LotR for 12 years or so, and he didn't start out with much of a plan. for example, Frodo would originally meet a hobbit named Trotter in Bree, who would only turn into Strider, and Strider into the lost heir of Elendil, over numerous revisions. If that process interests you, you can get the four volumes of Christopher Tolkien's History of Middle-Earth that trace the creation of LotR. But there's no such thing as a longer "director's cut" out there, if that's what you're after.
Hannibal Rex fucked around with this message at 18:26 on Jan 8, 2015 |
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Jan 8, 2015 18:24
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A betahobbit? What's a betahobbit got to do with my posting anyway? And can ye cook 'em?
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Jan 8, 2015 18:27
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LOTR was written in chunks, annotated, had parts sliced out, had scenes rewritten without changing other scenes and thus making them incompatible. There's no clean drafts really, the book was pulled together after a series of rewrites and ideas. Tolkien didn't write things from start to end in one go.
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Jan 8, 2015 18:29
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Aha! Thanks for enlightening me. I read a summary and it made it seem there was a "clean full draft" but yes, it makes complete sense that the original manuscript is a mass of revisions, false starts, cuts etc. 
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Jan 8, 2015 18:46
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I got a couple questions: First one is a probably a can of worms, but what has been the overall impression of Christopher Tolkein as both caretaker of his father's writings and an author in his own right? Somewhat related, my brother says that the Tolkein estate has never sold the movie rights to the Simarillion or anything other than the Hobbit and LOTR. Is this true?
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Jan 8, 2015 20:12
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Josef K. Sourdust posted:Aha! Thanks for enlightening me. I read a summary and it made it seem there was a "clean full draft" but yes, it makes complete sense that the original manuscript is a mass of revisions, false starts, cuts etc. Well, especially since the Silmarillion is literally what you just described: a collection of scraps, notes, drafts, re-drafts, and nearly finished fair copies that he kept working on and reworking throughout his entire life. What really makes it remarkable is that he kept just about everything he ever wrote down, so when Christopher decided to put it all together (and in some cases, like the Tuor story, fill in the gaps on his own) he had like 60 years' worth of material and style tradition to draw on. And then enough raw ore to mine to pump out History of Middle-Earth volumes until his own bibliography was bigger than his dad's. E: ^^ Yes, that's true. If Christopher had his way they never would have sold the rights to LotR or the Hobbit in the first place, but JRRT was not a rich man and they needed money in the 70s.
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Jan 8, 2015 20:37
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pixelbaron posted:Feanor asked three times for a single strand of her hair. I never picked up on this. Nice.
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Jan 8, 2015 21:06
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SirPhoebos posted:I got a couple questions: Chris does an ok job but is too stingy in releasing the source material.
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Jan 8, 2015 21:17
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Pong Daddy posted:Well, there was the whole Sack of Doriath thing too, some elves may have still held grudges about that. And weren't dwarves a little pissed nobody else helped them out when they cleared out all those orc fortresses to avenge Thror(or Thrain, I forget which) I wasn't aware of that. Got any more information?
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Jan 8, 2015 22:03
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It's kinda hard to judge Christopher Tolkien because he was pretty directly involved in the creation -- the first draft of the Return of the King was a series of letters that JRR sent Christopher while Christopher was serving in the RAF overseas. He's not just a guy who happened to inherit an estate with literary rights, he was an active participant in the creation of the stories. Maybe not a co-author but definitely a first editor.
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Jan 8, 2015 22:32
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This might be of interest to the thread: http://historytoday.com/lynn-forest-hill/inspiration-tolkiens-ring As a side note, I've been seeing a lot of "Middle-Earth is post-apocalyptic" type stuff recently. Wonder where that idea cropped up from, since it's pretty obvious that it really isn't intended to be one.
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Jan 8, 2015 23:48
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I think it's a combination of a) in context of the universe, it actually is "post-apocalyptic" in the sense that the War of Wrath pretty well fits the bill; and b) people mixing it up with the Sword of Shannara or something.
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Jan 8, 2015 23:56
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Not just the War of Wrath, there have been multiple large and small apocalypses in Middle-Earth. The fall of Eregion, the sinking of Numenor, Moria, the collapse of Arnor and (slower but no less apocalyptic, I think) of Gondor. Even Smaug caused Dale to be a post-apocalyptic sort of area. The War of the Last Alliance effectively depopulated a big chunk of the region we're familiar with - removed the Noldor as a serious player. The whole history of Middle-Earth is a long series of events that cause advanced societies to revert to subsistence states. It's why the founding of the Reunited Kingdom at the end of LotR is such a big deal and a huge part of the theme of mourning the loss of better elder days. EDIT: VV Yeah I had forgotten about the Great Plague, too, thanks. VV Lemniscate Blue fucked around with this message at 00:43 on Jan 9, 2015 |
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Jan 9, 2015 00:06
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Kemper Boyd posted:This might be of interest to the thread: http://historytoday.com/lynn-forest-hill/inspiration-tolkiens-ring I don't think Tolkien intended post-apocalyptica as we use the term nowadays. People aren't being the road warrior, but in fifty or a hundred years they wouldn't be doing that here either, they'd probably be living like the Amish or other agricultural sorts. Or like hobbits, if you will. I'd say the broader theme of 'a beautiful thing was destroyed' with the subsidiary theme of 'but something new grows' is entirely consonant with post-apocalyptic stuff.
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Jan 9, 2015 00:22
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Interstellar comes to mind.
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Jan 9, 2015 01:20
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BatteredFeltFedora posted:Not just the War of Wrath, there have been multiple large and small apocalypses in Middle-Earth. The fall of Eregion, the sinking of Numenor, Moria, the collapse of Arnor and (slower but no less apocalyptic, I think) of Gondor. Even Smaug caused Dale to be a post-apocalyptic sort of area. There's got to be an alternative term for the setting trope because for better or worse 'post-apocalypse' brings to mind Mad Max, Terminator and Fallout when it could be applied to a much broader range of settings.
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Jan 9, 2015 01:47
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SirPhoebos posted:There's got to be an alternative term for the setting trope because for better or worse 'post-apocalypse' brings to mind Mad Max, Terminator and Fallout when it could be applied to a much broader range of settings. I've heard Götterdämmerung ('Twilight of the Gods', or something similar) used several times to describe The Lord of the Rings before.
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