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Popular Thug Drink posted:I'm actually kind of impressed, I doubt the US Military has the capacity to pull off this kind of revenge killing with such little collateral damage. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Osama_bin_Laden I mean we killed the one dude's wife but  Why you hangin' out with Osama Bin Laden? Don't hang out with that dude.
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Jan 7, 2015 20:47
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Kurtofan posted:I don't think anyone mentioned the crusades, you don't have to go back that far in time to find examples of European loving over Muslims. You don't have to go very far back to find examples of Muslims loving over Europeans, IE the Ottoman Empire. I imagine that the Muslims wanting a return of the caliphate fall into the same category as people pining over the British Empire or Soviet Union; looking at it from the rosy perspective of the dominant ruler as a power fantasy.
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Jan 7, 2015 20:47
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CommieGIR posted:Someone corrected me: It was carried out by Al Qaeda from Yemen. The movement of Radical Islam would be humiliated by a demonstration of the actual, material forces that validate secular modernity (humanity as a whole could use a reminder as well). If the state actors still refuse to cooperate on nuclear technology and build a modern middle east then they deserve their inevitable self-destruction.
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Jan 7, 2015 20:48
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Orange Devil posted:It's interesting to note that they did not kill nor attempt to kill the woman who opened the door for them, nor her daughter, nor the person whose car they jacked after ditching their own car. It seems to me the behaviour of people who carried out a targeted strike and are executing some kind of exit plan rather than shooting up as many people as they can before going out like martyrs, which is kind of odd to be honest, given the obsession with martyrdom radical Islamists tend to have. It seems to me that proceeding to kill as many random people they could after finishing their initial attack then standing their ground and killing as many police as they could before eventually being killed would have made an even bigger impact. The only explanations I can come to are either they want to get away alive somehow or they have another target they want to get to. At which point not killing the guy whose car you stole still doesn't make all that much sense to me. The guys who did it are probably way too good at their jobs to go on suicide attacks.
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Jan 7, 2015 20:48
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thompson posted:Well, not until now I guess right? I don't see this changing the Schengen Treaty to be honest. So no, we won't be reinstating internal border controls. euphronius posted:The guys who did it are probably way too good at their jobs to go on suicide attacks. I can see that. Still wonder why you'd leave the driver of the car you stole so he can immediately tell the authorities all about it.
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Jan 7, 2015 20:49
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WoodrowSkillson posted:I don't care, since my original post was to suggest that instead of whatever moderates are doing now, they should go find something better, since its not working. And most do not even have to agree with it, but their infrastructure allows the extremists to gain power and influence and use them. Same as a christian who lets his wacky buddy Scott Roeder rail against abortion doctors.
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Jan 7, 2015 20:49
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TheImmigrant posted:Please, folks. Let's not squander the opportunity presented by a political massacre in all probability committed by Muslims to denounce the Christian massacre of Muslims in the Crusades several centuries ago. Also, down with Wall Street and my parents for making me go to Sunday School! If you think something's wrong with Wall Street, you're a literal child. High five, brother.
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Jan 7, 2015 20:49
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my dad posted:The simplest explanation would be that they're professionals. This was a targeted strike, well organized, and well executed. Unfortunately, and fortunately, at the same time. It was a very good attack. A clean getaway too (so far). I'm still reading in reports that they spoke un-accented French. Do we have any kind of update on them at all? Also, some of you Frenchmen, how fast could these guys be out of France? Is it possible that they are already out of the country?
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Jan 7, 2015 20:49
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Orange Devil posted:It's interesting to note that they did not kill nor attempt to kill the woman who opened the door for them, nor her daughter, nor the person whose car they jacked after ditching their own car. It seems to me the behaviour of people who carried out a targeted strike and are executing some kind of exit plan rather than shooting up as many people as they can before going out like martyrs, which is kind of odd to be honest, given the obsession with martyrdom radical Islamists tend to have. It seems to me that proceeding to kill as many random people they could after finishing their initial attack then standing their ground and killing as many police as they could before eventually being killed would have made an even bigger impact. The only explanations I can come to are either they want to get away alive somehow or they have another target they want to get to. At which point not killing the guy whose car you stole still doesn't make all that much sense to me. Well they did run one guy over after a firefight with police. Actually that's even the stranger part to me: How loving bad to the Paris police have to be that they could get away at all? If you did this poo poo in a major city in America, you'd have a swarm of helicopters that would blot out the sun over you in 90 seconds. ED: Of course if it was the LAPD you'd also have three times the number of dead because they just go into "shoot everything that moves" mode in a crisis it seems like.
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Jan 7, 2015 20:49
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Blazing Ownager posted:Well they did run one guy over after a firefight with police. Are you saying that's a good thing?
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Jan 7, 2015 20:50
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R. Mute posted:I'm not sure what you mean by 'their infrastructure allows the extremists to gain power and influence and use them' or what moderates should be doing, but I guess I want to point out that blaming a religion for what happened is a really simplistic analysis which only provides non-answers to what should be done. He literally means "if everyone but the extremists became something other than Muslim then we could rightly say that all Muslims are barbarians who should be executed".
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Jan 7, 2015 20:51
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Mukip posted:You don't have to go very far back to find examples of Muslims loving over Europeans, IE the Ottoman Empire. I imagine that the Muslims wanting a return of the caliphate fall into the same category as people pining over the British Empire or Soviet Union; looking at it from the rosy perspective of the dominant ruler as a power fantasy. Well also the Ottoman Empire was exactly that, an Empire. It wasn't a state. States were imposed, and don't lend themselves well to the demography of the Middle East. Empires have always been more functional in the region because empires, unlike states, don't demand homogeneity.
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Jan 7, 2015 20:51
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I keep waiting on reports that they've been found, but yeah, considering how cleanly they walked in, did the attack, and left, these guys are probably well trained and too professional to pull the 'martyr' crap.
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Jan 7, 2015 20:51
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TheImmigrant posted:Please, folks. Let's not squander the opportunity presented by a political massacre in all probability committed by Muslims to denounce the Christian massacre of Muslims in the Crusades several centuries ago. Also, down with Wall Street and my parents for making me go to Sunday School! Yes, because that is what people are saying. Its not at all that we are just refuting claims that religious extremism is something uniquely muslim being made by people who want to use these attacks as a prelude to Gulf War 3: The Murderening where we kill another five hundred thousand people and spend trillions of dollars thereby ruining the lives of millions of people worldwide for absolutely no loving reason.
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Jan 7, 2015 20:52
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Radbot posted:If you think something's wrong with Wall Street, you're a literal child. High five, brother. Good money, but the hours are too long. Not enough exotic headgear or costumes either, other than the occasional Sikh. It's not Authentic unless there are lots of shalwar qameez. Probably racism. At any rate, this is a more comfortable subject than the framing of Islam in Paris.
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Jan 7, 2015 20:52
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euphronius posted:Are you saying that's a good thing? Helicopters? Yeah. I don't think Helicopters have ever committed police abuse or harassment. Kind of impossible for them unless they start falling out of the sky onto victims.
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Jan 7, 2015 20:52
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FourLeaf posted:Just admit you're too lazy to do the research instead of complaining about imaginary strawmen. spacetoaster posted:Yeah, he also forgets some very big differences between a religion like christianity and islam. I have yet to find verses in the new testament books that compare, at all, to these verses from the islamic books: 5ive posted:Get this islamophobic poo poo out of here CommieGIR posted:If you are going to quote religious documents to support that they are deplorable, you are going to find a lot of deplorable stuff in a lot of the major religions. Islam isn't exactly the elephant in the room when it comes to having lovely things in their holy books. No but really THIS time if I went and quoted hadiths and exodus and poo poo people would totally go "Oh, well, yes I guess you are right, the abrahamic religions are bad!" and not instead give a bunch of excuses based on how "well you do not understand it, no one actually believes this, etc etc." And then we would talk about how religions are not bound by their holy books and you cannot judge modern people by the books. computer parts posted:The infrastructure of "being discriminated against because of their
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Jan 7, 2015 20:53
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NomChompsky posted:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Osama_bin_Laden Apparently he had a stockpile of N64 games and everyone around there liked playing Mario Party.
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Jan 7, 2015 20:53
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WoodrowSkillson posted:
You haven't said much of anything except statements implying that Muslims are just like the favorite boogeyman of D&D.
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Jan 7, 2015 20:54
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spacetoaster posted:It was a very good attack. A clean getaway too (so far). It's barely 90 minutes from Gare du Nord to Brussels on the Thalys, although I imagine that was heavily watched in the aftermath.
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Jan 7, 2015 20:54
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WoodrowSkillson posted:No but really THIS time if I went and quoted hadiths and exodus and poo poo people would totally go "Oh, well, yes I guess you are right, the abrahamic religions are bad!" and not instead give a bunch of excuses based on how "well you do not understand it, no one actually believes this, etc etc." And then we would talk about how religions are not bound by their holy books and you cannot judge modern people by the books.
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Jan 7, 2015 20:56
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Orange Devil posted:I can see that. Still wonder why you'd leave the driver of the car you stole so he can immediately tell the authorities all about it. Killing the driver would've been pointless or even counterproductive - they'd either have to drop the body there, thus alerting authorities anyway, or drive around with a corpse and have to deal with disposal later. Also since there's still no information on where these guys came from or where they got the weapons, it's a bit premature to blame Central/Eastern Europe of this, I think.
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Jan 7, 2015 20:56
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Blazing Ownager posted:Well they did run one guy over after a firefight with police. I don't think so. This was a surgical attack, there was no time to respond. They'd certainly lock the area down after the fact, just like the French police have done.
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Jan 7, 2015 20:56
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Tezzor posted:Muslim extremists overwhelmingly and centrally justify their actions by reference to western policy in the Middle East. This is not credibly arguable. Since you have stated it is not "credibly argued" then I suppose it is mere coincidence that there are massive Muslim attacks, using the same terrorist tactics where civilians are targeted,, in Chechnya/Moscow, Mumbai, Pakistan, southeast Asia, north Africa, Nigeria, and Sudan, to name a few. The list goes on. It is almost like every location where significant Muslim populations exist, there have been incidences of terrorism. Weird. It can't be that Islam is to blame for attacks, because that is bigoted. So it must be some grand coincidence.
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Jan 7, 2015 20:56
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That's too dumb to even respond to.
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Jan 7, 2015 20:58
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R. Mute posted:I'm not sure what you mean by 'their infrastructure allows the extremists to gain power and influence and use them' or what moderates should be doing, but I guess I want to point out that blaming a religion for what happened is a really simplistic analysis which only provides non-answers to what should be done. Find any case where a normal run of the mill mosque was funneling money to al qaida, or how seemingly innocuous churches are funding persecution in uganda. When you go to Mass as put your money in the collection plate, you are helping support the catholic churches efforts to stop birth control in africa, if only minutely. Attending their services only reinforces their power and their influence in society, and gives the extremists room to breathe. My entire original point was that if you disagree with these groups that are murdering in the name of islam, and nothing you have done so far has helped, leave and start eroding their base of support. Obviously this will never happen, but its a better answer then "the moderates have to do better!!!"
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Jan 7, 2015 20:58
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TheImmigrant posted:Which is why we must assiduously avoid discussing atrocities committed by Muslims today, comme il faut. That's not what I said?
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Jan 7, 2015 20:58
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joeburz posted:Apparently he had a stockpile of N64 games and everyone around there liked playing Mario Party. Hasn't Mario party claimed enough innocent lives as it is?
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Jan 7, 2015 20:58
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Arkane posted:Since you have stated it is not "credibly argued" then I suppose it is mere coincidence that there are massive Muslim attacks, using the same terrorist tactics where civilians are targeted,, in Chechnya/Moscow, Mumbai, Pakistan, southeast Asia, north Africa, Nigeria, and Sudan, to name a few. The list goes on. All of those countries' Muslim populations have been hosed over by neoliberalism, colonialism, sectarian oppression or outright invasion. What are they supposed to do, have a conference?
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Jan 7, 2015 20:59
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None of this is unlikely to change soon, especially since the Middle East will only continue to destabilize and Europe will likely see continued recession and anti-immigration populism. If anything it is a pretty perfect system for creating continual economic and social chaos and extremism. Edit: Also Europe still desperately needs immigrants, so that isn't going to change either.
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Jan 7, 2015 20:59
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NomChompsky posted:Well also the Ottoman Empire was exactly that, an Empire. It wasn't a state. States were imposed, and don't lend themselves well to the demography of the Middle East. Empires have always been more functional in the region because empires, unlike states, don't demand homogeneity. Perhaps so. But when muslims says they want want a new caliphate they are probably thinking of the Ottoman Empire as the peak of Islamic glory and aspire to something like that. It's ironic in that sense, since arabs probably have the least justification for being sad sack whiners about imperialism given their own millenia-long history of conquest and subjugation in the name of Islam. I think this is another example of double standards where where the west goes some lengths to come to terms with it's history, whereas some muslims get away with obscurantist and rosy views of their (often ethnically adopted) imperial past without really being called out on it very much.
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Jan 7, 2015 21:00
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McDowell posted:The movement of Radical Islam would be humiliated by a demonstration of the actual, material forces that validate secular modernity (humanity as a whole could use a reminder as well). If the state actors still refuse to cooperate on nuclear technology and build a modern middle east then they deserve their inevitable self-destruction. Bandaid has to come off at some point. The rest of the world has basically bent over and adopted our ways and general philosophy on things or are too marginal to present any challenge. If there are holdouts that want to fight, well, they're only going to give us more trouble down the road.
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Jan 7, 2015 21:00
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Blazing Ownager posted:Helicopters? Yeah. There's stuff like this: https://www.youtube.com/v/OFtJMZEthP0 that isn't very nice, but admittedly this is pretty low on the scale that also includes choking and shooting.
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Jan 7, 2015 21:00
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WoodrowSkillson posted:Find any case where a normal run of the mill mosque was funneling money to al qaida, or how seemingly innocuous churches are funding persecution in uganda. When you go to Mass as put your money in the collection plate, you are helping support the catholic churches efforts to stop birth control in africa, if only minutely. Attending their services only reinforces their power and their influence in society, and gives the extremists room to breathe.
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Jan 7, 2015 21:00
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SedanChair posted:I don't think so. This was a surgical attack, there was no time to respond. They'd certainly lock the area down after the fact, just like the French police have done. SedanChair posted:The National Front sure won't! And neither will David Cameron. Nor will Netanyahu, good point as usual SedanChair. Also good observation that these attackers seemed very professional. You've got to ask yourself, what organizations or nations are going to really benefit from this?
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Jan 7, 2015 21:01
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Mukip posted:Perhaps so. But when muslims says they want want a new caliphate they are probably thinking of the Ottoman Empire as the peak of Islamic glory and aspire to something like that. It's ironic in that sense, since arabs probably have the least justification for being sad sack whiners about imperialism given their own millenia-long history of conquest and subjugation in the name of Islam. I think this is another example of double standards where where the west goes some lengths to come to terms with it's history, whereas some muslims get away with obscurantist and rosy views of their (often ethnically adopted) imperial past without really being called out on it very much. Also everyone knows that the Abbasid caliphate was way better than the Ottoman empire. WHAT A BUNCH OF MAROONS!
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Jan 7, 2015 21:01
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adocious posted:Um, no, I'm suggesting that Mohammed preached that violence against infidels is justified and that is part of the moral calculus of Islamist terrorism. Most religions contain passages that condone slaughter of ethnic or religious enemies, and literally every religion I'm aware of has had militants that kill with specific scriptural allowances. Pointing out that Islam does as well doesn't make Islam exceptional. When extremist Christians bomb abortion clinics or shoot doctors in the US, they're making the same "moral calculus". Religiously justified warfare is absurdly common.
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Jan 7, 2015 21:01
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R. Mute posted:How are those excuses? Are you really demanding we ignore any type of context, any type of psychology, anything sociology taught us and just go 'must be the religion'? And then what? If we were to ignore basically everything and say that religion is to blame, then what? What do we do? Foundationally, Islamic scripture isn't substantively more irrational or bloodthirsty than other major religions. However, Islam as practiced today is the stated motivation for more violence and strife than any other religion, probably all other religions combined.
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Jan 7, 2015 21:01
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TheImmigrant posted:Foundationally, Islamic scripture isn't substantively more irrational or bloodthirsty than other major religions. However, Islam as practiced today is the stated motivation for more violence and strife than any other religion, probably all other religions combined. Do you have charts to support this.
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Jan 7, 2015 21:02
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The Insect Court posted:Nor will Netanyahu, good point as usual SedanChair. Also good observation that these attackers seemed very professional. You've got to ask yourself, what organizations or nations are going to really benefit from this? I thought it would be pointless to mention Bibi, as his response will be the same as when a bottle rocket scares a cat out of a tree.
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Jan 7, 2015 21:02
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