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cheerfullydrab posted:It took me quite a long amount of time, soul-searching, and historical research to figure out that WW2 wasn't a Good War. And really intelligent people will still debate with you that it was. You cannot possibly be dissing the Great Patriotic War. 
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Jan 8, 2015 04:31
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WWII was a terrible war in so much as the result of WWI made a WWII inevitable which is really loving stupid. Like, come on Allies when you end a war can you actually end the drat thing and not leave all the poo poo stewing so that it all boils over again a couple of decades later? Poor bloody form.
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Jan 8, 2015 04:44
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Are there any cool Alt history books about NYC becoming an independent city-state? It almost happened and I imagine it would have done a lot to legitimize secession. Can't know for sure what would happened, but seems to me like war would end in a stalemate. CSA would collapse into a bunch of ever-increasingly small nation-states. US would fragment along state lines (Civil War went a long way towards solidifying the idea of a coherent United States as opposed to a bunch of quasi-independent states). The bigger, more international deal, would be that democracy as a form of government would take an even bigger hit than it did. You've got Republican France that went crazy and invaded everybody and the United States that went crazy and collapsed on itself. You know the myth about democracies never declaring war on each other? That meme would get inverted as poo poo and democratic representation would be tarred as absurdly bellicose (with Athens being another prime example). What would happen? A big boost to the Socialist movement seems like it would make sense, but Marx leaned really heavily on the concept of social democracy. That's already been pretty heavily disproved in this particular timeline.
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Jan 8, 2015 04:48
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cheerfullydrab posted:It took me quite a long amount of time, soul-searching, and historical research to figure out that WW2 wasn't a Good War. And really intelligent people will still debate with you that it was. Wait, what? You're not really gonna call removing the Nazis and stopping Japanese imperialism bad, are you? The alternative to the war wasn't just not having a war and Hitler stopping because he was doing wrong. Every ally did some awful poo poo, but that doesn't mean stopping the axis was a bad thing.
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Jan 8, 2015 05:04
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Neruz posted:How is Christianity not man-made God made Christianity, whereas Islam/Hinduism/Buddhism/everything else was made up by men and that's why it's wrong. Judaism gets a pass though because it was the prequel to Christianity. Actually, God made Judaism too now that I think about it. Next time I run into a "relationship not religion" person if they say that religion is man-made and that's why it's wrong, I'll ask them about Judaism and how that works.
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Jan 8, 2015 05:10
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who do they think is doing the preaching? 
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So they're basically saying that the proof that other religions are wrong because our religion is right. Good old circular logic doing its thing.
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Jan 8, 2015 05:13
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Fulchrum posted:Wait, what? You're not really gonna call removing the Nazis and stopping Japanese imperialism bad, are you? The alternative to the war wasn't just not having a war and Hitler stopping because he was doing wrong. Every ally did some awful poo poo, but that doesn't mean stopping the axis was a bad thing. It was a necessary thing, not a good thing, and there is no such thing as a "good war" is the point I think they were making.
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Jan 8, 2015 05:14
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Fulchrum posted:Wait, what? You're not really gonna call removing the Nazis and stopping Japanese imperialism bad, are you? The alternative to the war wasn't just not having a war and Hitler stopping because he was doing wrong. Every ally did some awful poo poo, but that doesn't mean stopping the axis was a bad thing. Yes, I'm saying exactly that.
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Jan 8, 2015 05:27
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Shbobdb posted:Are there any cool Alt history books about NYC becoming an independent city-state? It almost happened and I imagine it would have done a lot to legitimize secession. Can't know for sure what would happened, but seems to me like war would end in a stalemate. CSA would collapse into a bunch of ever-increasingly small nation-states. US would fragment along state lines (Civil War went a long way towards solidifying the idea of a coherent United States as opposed to a bunch of quasi-independent states). The bigger, more international deal, would be that democracy as a form of government would take an even bigger hit than it did. You've got Republican France that went crazy and invaded everybody and the United States that went crazy and collapsed on itself. You know the myth about democracies never declaring war on each other? That meme would get inverted as poo poo and democratic representation would be tarred as absurdly bellicose (with Athens being another prime example). The Difference Engine features NYC as an independent Marxist city-state (with slavery!).
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Jan 8, 2015 06:14
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Ghost of Reagan Past posted:There are some Christians that don't think Christianity is a religion. http://youtu.be/OVk85ePvgF8?t=1m4s
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Jan 8, 2015 06:34
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This is painfully funny. This guy is so baffled that he can't understand what O'Reilly is on about. It's some through-the-looking glass poo poo here.
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Jan 8, 2015 06:48
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Cowslips Warren posted:I know we in the US tend to heavily whitewash history, IE in WWII the US swept in and kicked Hitler's rear end and saved all the Jews and we won the war for Europe! Oklahoma history classes (I'm a Cherokee and grew up in tribal territory, but we didn't have immersion schools at the time and the tribe is heavily intermingled with the white population, so I just went to the same schools as Anglos) were actually pretty neutral about the Civil War. They focused quite a bit on what actually happened in Oklahoma itself during the war, so a lot of talk about internal tribal conflicts and the relationships between the tribes and the Union/Confederate governments. We talked a lot about Stand Watie, the Cherokee raider who was the last Confederate ground commander to surrender (this is entirely because he was so isolated that it took a very long time for news of the war's end to reach him, but it gets romanticized as this heroic last stand, fighting to the bitter end when everyone else had abandoned the cause blah blah blah), as well as the conflicts between the pro-Union Native Americans and the pro-Confederate ones. Basically, there were three schools of thought here in Oklahoma during the war. There were people who supported the idea that 'the enemy of my enemy is my friend', and thought that backing the Confederacy was the best way to ensure Native independence - basically, they believed that the Confederacy itself would never be powerful enough to exercise colonial ambitions even if it won the war, because it was a neo-feudal backwater, and that the loss of the war would weaken the Union so much that they wouldn't be able to cast their eyes west either, thus freeing the rest of the continent for the natives. There were also people who saw the writing on the wall and realized the Confederacy was going to get their asses kicked, so they decided that backing the Union was the best way to ensure Native independence, because they assumed the Union would be grateful for the support, see the native tribes as brave and loyal allies, and be more likely to honor their treaties and leave them to their land. Then there was the third group, which I'm going to call the 'gently caress all yall' position. They basically said that, you know, no one's really watching us right now, we can do whatever we want, but that isn't going to last, so let's pack our poo poo and get the gently caress out of Dodge while this war's going down. The idea was that, no matter who won, they were still going to be a pack of white supremacists with an endless thirst for resources, and they're going to expand west eventually either way; it wasn't really going to matter which flag the colonizers were marching under, what mattered was that the natives should all be gone by the time they get there. None of these positions really gained majority support, all three groups basically tried to do their thing simultaneously, and you had a lot of tribes, and even families, split along these lines. Some of the resulting feuds are still around - the Oklahoma tribes are nothing if not good at maintaining very long grudges. We didn't cover Vietnam in regular history class at all, and it got a very brief one-class-period-long lesson in AP History. It was a pretty good lesson, honestly, the teacher went off-book and included stuff from A People's History and clips from Hearts and Minds as well as his own personal experiences as a Vietnam veteran. The lesson he was supposed to give out of the book would have been extremely cursory whitewashed poo poo and wouldn't have even taken an entire period to cover.
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Jan 8, 2015 07:59
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Ghost of Reagan Past posted:As a Plasmodium vivax I am a fine teacher. 
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Jan 8, 2015 08:37
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Conservatives talking about open carry again....
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Jan 8, 2015 09:38
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I wonder why this open carry militia-type group is painted a different color by conservatives.... I just can't quite see it...
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Jan 8, 2015 09:45
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Ghost of Reagan Past posted:There are some Christians that don't think Christianity is a religion. I have lost count of how many times I have heard "I'm not Catholic I'm Christian"! or "I'm Catholic not Christian" 
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Jan 8, 2015 09:50
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Ghost of Reagan Past posted:This is painfully funny. I've seen this other places too. Christians claim that the First Amendment really means the government can't force you to be a certain kind of Christian, but they can make you be Christian of course because Christianity isn't a religion, it's just The Truth.
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Jan 8, 2015 11:20
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I ran into this irl today when a colleague said she didn't celebrate Mardi Gras because it is a pagan holiday. I said if Mardi Gras is a pagan holiday then Christmas is too (Saturnalia) and she got super mad.
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Jan 8, 2015 11:29
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Darth Windu posted:I ran into this irl today when a colleague said she didn't celebrate Mardi Gras because it is a pagan holiday. I said if Mardi Gras is a pagan holiday then Christmas is too (Saturnalia) and she got super mad. This is literally what the puritans thought and is pretty much true.
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Jan 8, 2015 13:26
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OwlFancier posted:I know literally nobody who asks themselves what they learned every day. Craig Ferguson used to.  Neruz posted:Anyone who thinks that American Civil War was fundamentally about anything other than slavery is deluding themselves. While many individuals may well have had personal reasons to take part that were not directly about slavery it was ultimately slavery and the changing opinions about how acceptable it is to trade and deal in slaves that were the underlying causes of the war. Just break out the Confederate Constitution on that one. quote:Article I Section 9(4) The major changes to the US Constitution that they adopted pretty quickly on leaving the union were codifying the negro slaves as property, and not having to pay taxes for infrastructure improvements and other Tea Party Bullshit. It's actually pretty sickening that you can point directly to all the modern right wing arguments *except slavery, of course* in the Confederate constitution.
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Jan 8, 2015 13:33
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My Q-Face posted:The major changes to the US Constitution that they adopted pretty quickly on leaving the union were codifying the negro slaves as property, and not having to pay taxes for infrastructure improvements and other Tea Party Bullshit. It's actually pretty sickening that you can point directly to all the modern right wing arguments *except slavery, of course* in the Confederate constitution. Just because the Confederates lost doesn't mean they went away 
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Jan 8, 2015 13:36
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Vincent Van Goat posted:
Classes, also you have to get licensed, also you have renew that license every year, and depending on the rating, maintain a certain level of currency, keep a log of every jump you make. But more to the point, you only put a parachute on when you intend to use it. Nobody is wandering around minding their own business and suddenly finding themselves needing a parachute. If you're getting out of a plane, it's because you got into one intending to jump out of it (or are a professional military pilot in an emergency). So, it's a clever comparison that falls apart on even the slightest examination. Oh wait, I forgot these are the people who carry a gun in hopes of using it.
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Jan 8, 2015 14:35
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seiferguy posted:I got a chance to go to Charleston earlier this year. While I was there I stopped by their museum. It was pretty cool to see a lot of artifacts from the civil war. They also had stuff on slavery too. One of the things I noticed was that they really embellished the rich culture of slaves and nowhere did it say that slavery was wrong. There was also a lot of disdain written about how union soldiers treates confederates too. Do you remember what museum you went to? I grew up in the area and while there is that Gullah culture that gets talked about a lot most of the museums I've been to in the area do a good job of going into why slavery was a load. Fort Sumter itself goes well into detail.
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Jan 8, 2015 14:59
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Absurd Alhazred posted:The Difference Engine features NYC as an independent Marxist city-state (with slavery!). Wait what? How does that work at all?
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Jan 8, 2015 15:01
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KomradeX posted:Wait what? How does that work at all? I'm assuming the same way as Athenian democracy - freedom, liberty and equality, but only for those who count
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Jan 8, 2015 15:25
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Gravel Gravy posted:Do you remember what museum you went to? I grew up in the area and while there is that Gullah culture that gets talked about a lot most of the museums I've been to in the area do a good job of going into why slavery was a load. Fort Sumter itself goes well into detail. Yeah I took the Fort Sumter tour last year and it made it pretty clear what was up. It's run by the National Park Service so that probably has something to do with it.
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Jan 8, 2015 15:30
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A good litmus test on just how racist your local gun nut is: 
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Jan 8, 2015 15:53
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Shbobdb posted:Are there any cool Alt history books about NYC becoming an independent city-state? It almost happened and I imagine it would have done a lot to legitimize secession. Can't know for sure what would happened, but seems to me like war would end in a stalemate. CSA would collapse into a bunch of ever-increasingly small nation-states. US would fragment along state lines (Civil War went a long way towards solidifying the idea of a coherent United States as opposed to a bunch of quasi-independent states). The bigger, more international deal, would be that democracy as a form of government would take an even bigger hit than it did. You've got Republican France that went crazy and invaded everybody and the United States that went crazy and collapsed on itself. You know the myth about democracies never declaring war on each other? That meme would get inverted as poo poo and democratic representation would be tarred as absurdly bellicose (with Athens being another prime example). Not exactly that, but I always recommend DMZ. It's a 2005 comic about the south getting upset and rebelling but getting stopped at NYC which gets turned into a DMZ. It's mostly told from the point of the people stuck there.
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Jan 8, 2015 15:56
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Tequila25 posted:A good litmus test on just how racist your local gun nut is: If they were real Americans they would open carry in a Chili's or Applebee's.
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Jan 8, 2015 15:57
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Tequila25 posted:A good litmus test on just how racist your local gun nut is: My favorite part of this is actually that he has his rank in his name on Facebook as he talks about "Obama's Army".
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Jan 8, 2015 16:21
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Historically, right-wingers have pulled a complete and immediate 180 on the issue of gun rights as soon as nonwhite people start exercising those rights. I'd recommend the book 'Negroes with Guns', by Robert Franklin Williams, if you'd like to read about the reaction from the right the last time black people decided the Second Amendment applied to them as well as white people. Here's a short sample. The context is that a car full of black students were surrounded by a lynch mob in a rural Southern town; the mob was throwing stones and someone was bringing up cans of gasoline, intending to burn them alive. The driver steps out of the car with a semiautomatic carbine in hand, racks a round, and then this happens: quote:“All this time three policemen had been standing about fifty feet away from us while we kept waiting in the car for them to come and rescue us. Then when they saw that we were armed and the mob couldn’t take us, two of the policemen started running. One ran straight to me, grabbed me on the shoulder, and said, ‘Surrender your weapon! Surrender your weapon!’ I struck him in the face and knocked him back away from the car and put my carbine in his face, and told him that we didn’t intend to be lynched. The other policeman who had run around the side of the car started to draw his revolver out of the holster. He was hoping to shoot me in the back. They didn’t know that we had more than one gun. One of the students (who was seventeen years old) put a .45 in the policeman’s face and told him that if he pulled out his pistol he would kill him. The policeman started putting his gun back in the holster and backing away from the car, and he fell into the ditch. There may not be lynch mobs anymore, but that old man crying in the crowd never really went away.
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Jan 8, 2015 17:22
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Strom Cuzewon posted:I'm assuming the same way as Athenian democracy - freedom, liberty and equality, but only for those who count Part of what I know if the Book is that Marx himself starts the Commune abs I think Marx would realize the irony of the communist system built on Slavery. I guess you can just wave it around to when Steampunk was just Cyberpunk but with coal so everything has to suck abs there are no good guys where as now Streampunk is very romanticing of upper class Europeans and colonialism
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Jan 8, 2015 17:29
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Mister Bates posted:Historically, right-wingers have pulled a complete and immediate 180 on the issue of gun rights as soon as nonwhite people start exercising those rights. I'd recommend the book 'Negroes with Guns', by Robert Franklin Williams, if you'd like to read about the reaction from the right the last time black people decided the Second Amendment applied to them as well as white people. Here's a short sample. The context is that a car full of black students were surrounded by a lynch mob in a rural Southern town; the mob was throwing stones and someone was bringing up cans of gasoline, intending to burn them alive. The driver steps out of the car with a semiautomatic carbine in hand, racks a round, and then this happens: The police don't seem that different either.
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Jan 8, 2015 17:31
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Mr E posted:My favorite part of this is actually that he has his rank in his name on Facebook as he talks about "Obama's Army". I looked him up and it looks like he ran/is running for office somewhere. He's also a triple amputee because of his time in Iraq. You'd think someone in his position would be bitter about the pointlessness of what destroyed his body, but I can understand why he'd cling for some purpose after what he's experienced. I don't know if anyone could accept losing both legs and an arm for nothing.
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Jan 8, 2015 17:53
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KomradeX posted:Wait what? How does that work at all? Slaves are communal property. It's not entirely far-fetched, in the sense that early New York labor parties were actually allied with agrarians (read: slaveowners) against the big-business Whigs, and the pro-immigration/working-class Democratic machine was very anti-black. It's more complicated than that but I'm not finding a lot of information on wikipedia, and it's been years since I've read the book on the subject.
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Jan 8, 2015 18:32
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Gravel Gravy posted:Do you remember what museum you went to? I grew up in the area and while there is that Gullah culture that gets talked about a lot most of the museums I've been to in the area do a good job of going into why slavery was a load. Fort Sumter itself goes well into detail. It was the Charleston Museum on Meeting Street in downtown(ish). I didn't get a chance to head to Fort Sumter, sadly. I thoroughly enjoyed the museum, since it had a lot of historical artifacts that were pretty well preserved. And yeah, maybe I read into it wrong, but reading up on Gullah, it sort of makes sense in some way.
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Jan 8, 2015 18:37
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Radish posted:The police don't seem that different either. Eh, they (the potential lynch victims) got out alive didn't they? It feels like you'd never see any police officer backing down once their authority has been challenged. Grognan fucked around with this message at 22:13 on Jan 8, 2015 |
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Jan 8, 2015 22:08
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Tequila25 posted:A good litmus test on just how racist your local gun nut is: Can anyone explain to me what is going on with all this Black Panthers stuff? A wikipediaing seems to suggest that the 'real' Black Panthers don't exist anymore and these new guys are just a raging hate group but I can't seem to find any actual information anywhere on the internet about these supposed roaming armed gangs of NBPP members that are apparently patrolling around the country terrorizing people by existing. Is this just more racist white man bullshit or is this actually a thing that is happening in any significant numbers?
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Jan 9, 2015 00:50
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Black people are brazenly carrying weapons in public. This is obviously a threat to freedom and must be swiftly crushed by a patriotic small government.
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Jan 9, 2015 00:52
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Not In My Back Yard? More like Not In My Black Yard.
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Jan 9, 2015 00:56
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