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Goons will never miss an opportunity to deliberately misunderstand the intent of another goon, if it allows them to morally grandstand.
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Jan 2, 2015 07:42
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Kelly posted:This wasn't casual banter between two friends - according to Jay he barely knew Adnan. On the one hand, you're right. If someone I really didn't know very well told me "I'm going to kill my ex-girlfriend", it would be weird and off-putting enough that I'd probably tell somebody. Maybe not go directly to the police, since that'd seem a little over-reactive, but still. Then again, we don't really know how he said it, if it were in a joking manner then Jay probably didn't take it seriously. Didn't Jay himself say in one of the taped police interviews that he honestly didn't think Adnan was being serious? Something like "I thought he was just blowing off steam" i.e. exaggerating.
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Jan 2, 2015 15:37
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Honestly the prosecutors/detectives probably pushed Jay to add or emphasize those details to shore up the case on premeditation. Like maybe Adnan was like "man gently caress her I'm so mad I could kill her" one time in colloquial anger after the DA was like "Jay you have to help yourself here, can you remember Adnan saying anything about planning this in advance, maybe something you thought was nothing at the time...be sure to mention anything like that in your interview if you can remember anything like that." That'd be pretty standard police interview stuff. Ultimately I kinda think Adnan probably strangled her in sudden adolescent rage when Hae was like "oh I love Don now he's more mature than you" but I donno. Maybe he'd thought about it previously in a weird moment of jellousy or soemthing, but then actually did it in a moment like that. Speculating about this stuff is weird because these people are real. I liked serial a lot but I always feel kinda bad posting about it.
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Jan 2, 2015 17:04
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Not that I advocate watching CNN - but if you're up this morning, they're going to talk Serial on CNN with Dershowitz in the next hour, tune in quick, I guess.
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Jan 3, 2015 15:02
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It's the prosecutor's turn to do a thing: https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2015/01/07/prosecutor-serial-case-goes-record/
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Jan 7, 2015 22:16
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GigaPeon posted:It's the prosecutor's turn to do a thing: https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2015/01/07/prosecutor-serial-case-goes-record/ Devastating. Koenig is done here. If there is a Serial season 2 she should not be involved.
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Jan 7, 2015 23:44
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GigaPeon posted:It's the prosecutor's turn to do a thing: https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2015/01/07/prosecutor-serial-case-goes-record/ Devastating. Urick is done here. If there is a retrial he should not be involved.
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Jan 7, 2015 23:47
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Why does that website talk so much about Reddit
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Jan 8, 2015 01:24
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Drunk Tomato posted:Why does that website talk so much about Reddit So that Reddit will pick it up and give it traffic, obviously. The text before the interview is so heinously biased, why am I supposed to take this seriously? "Koenig didn't come up with anything new so clearly the State's case is airtight, and here's the prosecutor to tell us why."
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Jan 8, 2015 01:33
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JethroMcB posted:So that Reddit will pick it up and give it traffic, obviously. Because you took a 10-hour podcast advocating for Adnan seriously?
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Jan 8, 2015 01:44
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I love that bit of Koenig's interview with Adnan where she starts bleating with agonised teenage brokenheartedness when he points out the obvious fact that she doesn't know him very well at all.
Orkin Mang fucked around with this message at 02:13 on Jan 8, 2015 |
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Jan 8, 2015 02:11
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Shitshow posted:Because you took a 10-hour podcast advocating for Adnan seriously? Many of them are becoming almost like truthers at this point, it is sad to see.
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Jan 8, 2015 02:14
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African AIDS cum posted:Many of them are becoming almost like truthers at this point, it is sad to see. I've never seen so many one line flashes of demented, rage-filled sarcasm in a long time.
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Jan 8, 2015 02:16
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quote:The most troubling part of “Serial” is Koenig’s underwhelming efforts to speak with Urick, the state’s lead prosecutor. He told us that she only emailed him on Dec. 12, less than a week before the podcast concluded, to ask about an allegation that he had badgered a witness against Syed for not making the defendant look “creepy” enough. That charge was aired on the show. (Urick vociferously denies it.)  I don't know how else to take that. Also, I'd side more with Don than Urich on the "making Syed creepy" part.
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Jan 8, 2015 02:48
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Regardless of the case itself, Koenig has been incredibly professional. She worked -- excessively, even -- to interview people from the case. I doubt Urick, as he has claimed, was ignored or not pursued until it was too late. Likely, he blew off interview requests until he recognized - maybe the week before the show ended, even! - that Serial (and the case) was getting an awful lot of attention. Also what a smug creep. "She didn't try hard enough to interview me...not that I would have let her, anyway!"
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Jan 8, 2015 04:04
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Bitchkrieg posted:Regardless of the case itself, Koenig has been incredibly professional. She worked -- excessively, even -- to interview people from the case. My favourite aspect about the whole thing: Sarah Koenig was researching this story for over a year. Natasha just learned about this story solely through the podcast (LESS THAN A MONTH AGO) doing no other research - yet calls out Sarah for doing a poor job.
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Jan 8, 2015 04:07
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Shitshow posted:Because you took a 10-hour podcast advocating for Adnan seriously? I guess I did, but in the end the podcast did a poor job of it. Adnan didn't come across as innocent, just "Not guilty." I guess what really put me off of that particular article was stuff like this - "The reality is that 'Serial' only worked if it could demonstrate that there were serious doubts about the fairness of Syed’s trial and conviction." It's just a really weird tone - "gently caress this stupid failure of a show! 12 episodes of hot air, if you ask this writer!...but keep reading, because I've got a hot scoop about it!" CaptainHollywood posted:
That and the bit immediately afterward about how he "was also concerned about the effect on Hae’s family." So he was concerned a month ago but now all bets are off, I guess? Damage has already been done, might as well say my piece? I guess Urick and Jay didn't speak to SK for the same reason that Adnan didn't take the stand at his own trial, and I am judging them harshly for speaking after the fact. So now I am just as bad as the jurors that I clucked my tongue and wagged my finger at, all high and mighty with delusions of being objective.
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Jan 8, 2015 04:27
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I get how Urick may be upset about SK dwelling too much on the parts that are not relevant, but...I guess I kind of feel like he's doing a disservice to the case on that. Clearly his prosecution relied on the cell phone records being corroborated by Jay and clearly he was going to focus on that. To say that SK dwelled too much on parts that were not in his prosecution isn't necessarily a mark against her or a "slight of hand", I think it is more a mark against a comprehensive case. He pretty much admits that there was a lot more evidence and many more phone calls than he presented, and skips over any part of the other calls that may shape the time period he's focusing on. If you're sticking to your guns on how you prosecuted fine, but to explore the rest of the call log isn't' slight of hand-its detective work. He sounds pretty convinced that Adnan did it though, and I think he's probably regretting not talking to SK now, similar to Jay, and trying to clear up what he considers to be a silly dig into the case. I remain unconvinced that Adnan is innocent after this first SU interview, but am more convinced that the state had a case, this was it, don't worry about the rest, we got him. It fits the narrative of a quick and clean conviction than it does about actual truth statements made by Jay or Adnan.
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Jan 8, 2015 04:37
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JethroMcB posted:I guess what really put me off of that particular article was stuff like this - "The reality is that 'Serial' only worked if it could demonstrate that there were serious doubts about the fairness of Syed’s trial and conviction." It's just a really weird tone - "gently caress this stupid failure of a show! 12 episodes of hot air, if you ask this writer!...but keep reading, because I've got a hot scoop about it!" That wasn't what I took from that quote at all. I thought Natasha was just speaking to what be needed for Serial to be engaging, to pull people in. The point is that Koenig would be an impartial actor, and it wouldn't be in her best interest to make a completely impartial show because that might make for a boring narrative. So what Natasha is suggesting here is that Koenig downplayed the prosecution's case in order to make Adnan seem more sympathetic, to make for a more exciting story - or at least, that it would have been in her interest to do so, and thus we can't just implicitly trust her version of the story. Jastiger posted:I get how Urick may be upset about SK dwelling too much on the parts that are not relevant, but...I guess I kind of feel like he's doing a disservice to the case on that. Clearly his prosecution relied on the cell phone records being corroborated by Jay and clearly he was going to focus on that. To say that SK dwelled too much on parts that were not in his prosecution isn't necessarily a mark against her or a "slight of hand", I think it is more a mark against a comprehensive case. He pretty much admits that there was a lot more evidence and many more phone calls than he presented, and skips over any part of the other calls that may shape the time period he's focusing on. If you're sticking to your guns on how you prosecuted fine, but to explore the rest of the call log isn't' slight of hand-its detective work. Yeah, but those other calls are bad evidence, not the good kind, you can't expect them to consider that in their case. XboxPants fucked around with this message at 04:43 on Jan 8, 2015 |
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Jan 8, 2015 04:41
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JethroMcB posted:That and the bit immediately afterward about how he "was also concerned about the effect on Hae’s family." So he was concerned a month ago but now all bets are off, I guess? Damage has already been done, might as well say my piece? He also said he wasn't at liberty to discuss the case or some bs. And yes, I'm judging too. Here's something that got me thinking that's probably been dissected a million times... Originally Jen was interviewed - she said how Jay had a role etc. (At this point now Jay has his pre-interview) Then Jay does his real interview and says nothing of note, then does his big "I confess". Now it's been said that Jay was potentially coached on what to say during the pre-interview. But was he also coached to fake not knowing - then suddenly confess to the truth. (even if this particular truth changed time and time again)
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Jan 8, 2015 04:50
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Additional note: I still like how Urich says how "Jay's story + Cell evidence = Corroboration." But this isn't exactly fair/true. Jay's story wasn't independent of the cell evidence. The cell evidence was shown to Jay - then Jay matched his story to fit the time frame/calls. Jay did not have a story that independently matched the cell evidence - --- he started to "remember" what really happened when given the cell records. Is that how it's supposed to work?
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Jan 8, 2015 05:10
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CaptainHollywood posted:Additional note:
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Jan 8, 2015 09:17
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African AIDS cum posted:this isnt true, did you even read the interview? quote:“Jay’s testimony by itself, would that have been proof beyond a reasonable doubt?” Urick asked rhetorically. “Probably not. Cellphone evidence by itself? Probably not.” The only reason Jay's story corroborates with the cell records is because Jay reformed his story AFTER seeing the cell records- and was not an independent match before-hand.
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Jan 8, 2015 11:23
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The most important part in the interview with Urick is where he explains that witnesses in the real world are not like the ones on TV and don't remember everything perfectly. Thats my biggest issue with Serial, because they treat Adnan's "I dont remember anything really" as something that "happens" but require Jay to have a nearly photographic memory of the day in question, which is ridiculous. It's also interesting that Koenig did not go into more detail about those mosque visitors that first wanted to give Adnan a false-alibi but than did not. Why did she not interview them about the evening? CaptainHollywood posted:The only reason Jay's story corroborates with the cell records is because Jay reformed his story AFTER seeing the cell records- and was not an independent match before-hand. Let's say Adnan is innocent. Just for fun. According to his version the cell was with Jay the whole time right or atleast we have to assume that it is because Adnan was at the mosque in the evening (Adnan's own story). So why did Jay need to see the phone log when he was with the cell phone if we assume that he would not have needed to look at it if his story were true? Doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me. What does make sense is that Jay constructed a story that protects himself/friends who were only tangentially involved in the murder and subsequent burrying of Hae's body and did not remember every little detail (he still remembers a whole lot more than Adnan) and the police used the phone log to help him remember those details. The interview also rightfully pointed out that Serial/Koenig spend a whole lot of time on the afternoon of the day Hae was killed but very little on the evening when they buried her corpse, even though thats the far more important part of the state's case and that the podcast had to be structured and told to be interesting to the audience, who probably did want to listen to a 12 recounting of the state's case, as that would have been terrible boring. The intrigue comes from the idea that Adnan, golden boy of his community, was framed by the petty drug dealer for the murder of his first girlfriend and because his lawyer was corrupt did not get a fair trial and because of that was put in jail for life.
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Jan 8, 2015 12:18
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Dude killed his girlfriend. Entertaining podcast but pretty much a waste of time in the end.
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Jan 8, 2015 13:07
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Orkin Mang posted:Dude killed his girlfriend. Entertaining podcast but pretty much a waste of time in the end. Yeah how anyone can come to a conclusion other than this one is really beyond me. Our justice system sucks and puts innocent people in jail but not every time. They got the right guy.
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Jan 8, 2015 15:13
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Dear Sergio posted:Yeah how anyone can come to a conclusion other than this one is really beyond me. Our justice system sucks and puts innocent people in jail but not every time. They got the right guy. Adnan is the only person involved who can't recall a single thing about the time in question. I just can't get over that when coupled with the rest of the "coincidences" that pop up through out the day. As the other producer said (roughly) either he did it or is the unluckiest person ever. Agent Burt Macklin fucked around with this message at 15:34 on Jan 8, 2015 |
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Jan 8, 2015 15:24
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It will be interesting to see if SK releases an Epilogue episode to cover all of the stuff happening with his new appeal and these recent interviews with Jay and the Prosecutor. Otherwise, is there any ETA on a new series? I don't listen to TAL.
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Jan 8, 2015 15:29
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Orkin Mang posted:Dude killed his girlfriend. Entertaining podcast but pretty much a waste of time in the end. This is where I'm at now. Urick is basically like, 'welp, this is a pretty straightforward case of a domestic violence murder' and he's right, no matter how much Koenig tries to tease it out.
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Jan 8, 2015 15:32
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Shitshow posted:This is where I'm at now. Urick is basically like, 'welp, this is a pretty straightforward case of a domestic violence murder' and he's right, no matter how much Koenig tries to tease it out. It's worth having an exhaustive investigation into a "standard" murder though, as it proves the more you pick away at the edges of the case the more complicated things get. Serial is an a excellent lesson for laypeople on how the trial system/evidence gathering works. Problem is that everyone's latched onto this 'Free Adnan' bullshit which I think is largely a product of morons refusing to change their mind once they've formed an opinion. You could listen to the first two or three episodes and become convinced that he's innocent, but not have the guts to admit you're wrong later in the show.
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Jan 8, 2015 15:48
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I love how people are suddenly sure that he's guilty because the prosecutor said so.
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Jan 8, 2015 16:07
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FlamingLiberal posted:I love how people are suddenly sure that he's guilty because the prosecutor said so. There's a huge difference between being found "not guilty" and being innocent of a crime. Adnan may be the one who killed Hae, but you're delusional if you think the evidence demonstrates guilt beyond a reasonable doubt.
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Jan 8, 2015 16:15
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Mr. Flunchy posted:It's worth having an exhaustive investigation into a "standard" murder though, as it proves the more you pick away at the edges of the case the more complicated things get. Serial is an a excellent lesson for laypeople on how the trial system/evidence gathering works. I agree on the first point but would argue on the second. I think Koenig has left some very important pieces of evidence out of the podcast for the sake of narrative tension, so I'm not sure how great an example it really is for laypeople. FlamingLiberal posted:I love how people are suddenly sure that he's guilty because the prosecutor said so. I don't think this is due exclusively to the prosecutor's interview. A lot of people TAL listeners - myself included - listened to Serial from the beginning, when it was in a kind of vacuum; I don't think it really started to blow up big until around Thanksgiving. And due to having only Koenig's narrative to go on at that point, a lot of people - myself included - had doubts as to Adnan's guilt. But Koenig isn't the only one crafting a narrative now and - with some of the facts that have recently come to light - it's not too difficult to see why some listeners have changed their mind on his guilt.
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Jan 8, 2015 16:34
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Shitshow posted:I agree on the first point but would argue on the second. I think Koenig has left some very important pieces of evidence out of the podcast for the sake of narrative tension, so I'm not sure how great an example it really is for laypeople. What pieces of evidence and what facts do you mean exactly? I know about Jay's interview, I know what the prosecutor said, but their statements don't amount to much more than conjecture. Is there some key evidence that Koenig has not mentioned in the podcast?
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Jan 8, 2015 16:58
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And More posted:What pieces of evidence and what facts do you mean exactly? I know about Jay's interview, I know what the prosecutor said, but their statements don't amount to much more than conjecture. Is there some key evidence that Koenig has not mentioned in the podcast? There is no evidence. There is only what "may have" happened, based on two halves of an untrustworthy source: spotty cell phone records and Jay's shoddy testimony.
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Jan 8, 2015 17:48
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And More posted:What pieces of evidence and what facts do you mean exactly? I know about Jay's interview, I know what the prosecutor said, but their statements don't amount to much more than conjecture. Is there some key evidence that Koenig has not mentioned in the podcast? One of the thrusts of the show's very first episode, one of the things that got people interested in the story, was about how no one can remember a typical day a month ago, right? Wow, good point, people thought, but that whole premise was built on a completely fraudulent assumption. As we find out later in the podcast, Adnan was literally called by the cops and told his exgf was missing the very day it happened. So why did the show open this way? And as Don points out, when he heard that he immediately remembered everything he did that day. On top of all that, though, the police contacted Adnan again on January 25, although they didn't get in touch with him, and they spoke to him again on February 1. I also remember that the French teacher Hae worked for was asking around about Adnan, and he came and told her to back off. Basically, he was never suddenly told he had to remember something six weeks back without warning. A lot of those Redditors love Adnan but they did turn up a few other big things reading transcripts and being amateur detectives. The mysterious Best Buy payphone that may not even have existed? That was a good hook too, and also really made Adnan's lawyer look incompetent. Except that she described the layout of the Best Buy and the phone in her opening statement, and wanted to bring the jury to look at the Best Buy. http://www.reddit.com/r/serialpodcast/comments/2risrs/cristina_gutierrez_knew_there_was_a_payphone/ Or when Koenig is talking about how Hae never described Adnan as possessive in her diary... She reads from Hae's diary on the podcast and then stops one sentence before Hae says she can't stand the possessiveness. http://www.reddit.com/r/serialpodcast/comments/2r3yua/sk_says_hae_doesnt_describe_adnan_as_possessive/ Anyway, Urick is almost definitely full of poo poo saying Koenig never tried to contact him, and his interview relies entirely on Jay and the cell records corroborating each other, even though that doesn't apply to Jay's recent interview, and even though Jay only explained any of those calls after police presented him with evidence of them. The one thing Urick says that did make an impact on me was that he didn't pick Jay, Adnan picked Jay. Jay was a pretty reluctant witness and a lot of the time seemed to only tell them what they could prove they know.
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Jan 8, 2015 17:59
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Drunk Tomato posted:There is no evidence. There is only what "may have" happened, based on two halves of an untrustworthy source: spotty cell phone records and Jay's shoddy testimony.
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Jan 8, 2015 18:16
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Taking the word of a guy who was willing to cop to accessory after the fact for mutder , with all of the circumstantial evidence surrounding it, doesn't seem that far of a stretch. I came into Serial late, and the first few episodes did have me thinking this would be a miscarriage of justice type situation, but if anything, the latter half of the podcast really cemented Adnan's guilt, at least in my eyes. Initially, I said it wasn't enough evidence for me to have hypothetically voted to convict, if I were a juror... Now, after sitting on it for a few weeks, maybe I would have. It doesn't matter, really - but SK was clearly biased due to her relationship with Adnan, yet, despite that, the show remained neutral enough for listeners to essentially make up their own minds. I don't get how anyone can claim Adnan is innocent, after the stuff about his Imam having to plead the fifth. I can see why people would say the evidence wasn't enough to prove anything beyond a "reasonable" doubt, but do people really continue to advocate for his complete innocence? I can't comprehend that.
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Jan 8, 2015 18:31
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CaptainHollywood posted:The only reason Jay's story corroborates with the cell records is because Jay reformed his story AFTER seeing the cell records- and was not an independent match before-hand. Wrong quote:The problem was that the cellphone records corroborated so much of Jay’s testimony. He said we were at this place, and [they] were. And he said that in the police interviews prior to obtaining the cellphone evidence. The defense attorney had a list of 80 people who "witnessed" Adnan at the mosque that night ready to perjure themselves, then when they found out about the cell phone evidence they nixed that plan. I wonder why that is.
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Jan 8, 2015 18:37
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Tuxedo Jack posted:I don't get how anyone can claim Adnan is innocent, after the stuff about his Imam having to plead the fifth. I can see why people would say the evidence wasn't enough to prove anything beyond a "reasonable" doubt, but do people really continue to advocate for his complete innocence? I can't comprehend that. I may be biased, and I'm definitely using an inadequate sample, but my guess is that most people are either pretty sure the right guy got caught in an imperfect scenario that leaves some nagging doubts about how that justice was executed, or that there wasn't enough to solidly get the guy, even if he may actually be guilty. Or they vacillate between the two (which you're allowed to do, surprisingly enough, you don't have to stick to your guns). My guess is that the hardcore innocent/guilty set are kind of a minority. I'm at the point where I think the podcast itself should be subjected to some really strong criticism, and I'm glad that it is. Not because it's bad or wrong, but because it's not the whole story, and in the style of a TAL episode, it's packaged like it is.
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Jan 8, 2015 18:52
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