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Oxxidation posted:No, what triggered it is that Occ tried watching Lost in chronological order and then thought "hm, this is pretty good, though I only like Lost in the first place because I have the insanity of a manatee. This same manatee-insanity prompts me to enlist Oxxidation to ask the Doctor Who megathread if the revival, too, would be better chronologically, despite spending half of its runtime helmed by the biggest Time rear end in a top hat this side of Homestuck's creator." Nobody is a biggest time rear end in a top hat than Andrew Hussie. He is simply the biggest time rear end in a top hat there is, has been, will be, willen haven been, and hadden willen be. also I expect Homestuck will never be finished, so it was a good call on Occ's part not getting deeper into it. This is about the only time "good call" and "Occ" can be used appropriately together in a sentence. Tell him his idea is dumb, but that the episodes work quite well in reverse alphabetical order.
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Jan 8, 2015 08:22
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Jerusalem posted:It really is an episode for me where in isolation it's not good, but in the context of everything around it/associated with it, it is quite good. Forest of the Night, by comparison, is bad by itself and as part of the greater whole. I thought it was dogshit. Badly edited and paced, weirdly written, pseudoscience (fine) that didn't even stick to its own weird logic (not fine), and I hated the Doctor's shirt. Doctor Spaceman posted:Time isn't a straight linear path from one end to the other. Multiple timelines mean it's better to consider it as a surface, where you can see all different paths at once. This is amazing.
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Jan 8, 2015 08:24
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Jerusalem posted:In un-chronological related matters, is there ANYBODY who actually liked Kill the Moon? Outside of all the stuff that happens between Clara and the Doctor after the main storyline is resolved? I loved Kill the Moon and thought it was really good. If you're willing to overlook the wonky science (which, I'm watching Doctor Who so of course I am) it's a fun time. I love big audacious concepts so when the Doctor is like, "the moon...is an egg!" I was just giddy with delight, because it's such an amazing ridiculous thing for the show to do. e: also Kill the Moon has a lot of strong women in it who are important to the plot and get to save the day, which is nice. When the Doctor kisses off and the main cast is pared down to three women who are all well-defined and interesting, that's a good thing and something that almost never ever happens in Doctor Who. e: also also I loved Courtney and think it would be cool if she came back. Seeing the Doctor with a rough-and-tumble teen companion again brought back pleasant shades of Ace. Android Blues fucked around with this message at 08:56 on Jan 8, 2015 |
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Jan 8, 2015 08:49
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Jerusalem posted:In un-chronological related matters, is there ANYBODY who actually liked Kill the Moon? Outside of all the stuff that happens between Clara and the Doctor after the main storyline is resolved? I'd really like to see what was cut out of it. Tony Osoba said he had a much larger part, so presumably there was a bunch of character stuff that never got seen.
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Jan 8, 2015 10:17
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Jerusalem posted:In un-chronological related matters, is there ANYBODY who actually liked Kill the Moon? Outside of all the stuff that happens between Clara and the Doctor after the main storyline is resolved? I liked the starting scenes... does that count?
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Jan 8, 2015 10:39
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Barry Foster posted:I hated the Doctor's shirt. That one and the one that looks like it is covered in lint are both really terrible, and that shouldn't bother me so much but every time I see them I think,"Oh man why'd he have to wear that one?"
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Jan 8, 2015 10:50
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gently caress yall i liked the forest one it was full of whimsy and stuff worst in my opinion this season was Listen. Kill the moon second baddest
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Jan 8, 2015 11:28
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When my nine year old looks at me and says "eggs don't work that way," the science, even if it's more fiction than fact, is just plain wrong and a drag on the episode. Kill the Moon is this show's answer to Threshold in terms of scientific accuracy.
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Jan 8, 2015 11:34
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Jerusalem posted:In un-chronological related matters, is there ANYBODY who actually liked Kill the Moon? Outside of all the stuff that happens between Clara and the Doctor after the main storyline is resolved? I liked it after thinking about it for a bit. A Decision had to be made, and it turned out to the right one.
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Jan 8, 2015 11:34
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Let's Kill Hitler was a bad episode. Kill the Moon was a bad episode. Every episode with the word 'Kill' is a bad episode so when next season's titles come in we will know which one to avoid.
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Jan 8, 2015 11:38
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Barry Foster posted:and I hated the Doctor's shirt. My theories appall you, my heresies outrage you, I never answer letters, and you don't like my tie!
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Jan 8, 2015 13:06
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Jerusalem posted:In un-chronological related matters, is there ANYBODY who actually liked Kill the Moon? Outside of all the stuff that happens between Clara and the Doctor after the main storyline is resolved? I think there's a brilliant story somewhere in there about the decaying symbols of what we once imagined the future was being replaced by a future that's completely unexpected and new, but the execution* of it leaves a lot to be desired. I'd like it a lot more if it didn't have the theme that doing the thing that feels right will turn out to be right for unanticipatable reasons, because I think that's a really stupid moral even if it's not the most stupid of the season thanks to Forest. But yes, the last nuclear weapons, an abandoned lunar base, the moon literally covered with cobwebs. A future that seemed fantastic within the lifetime of this show, that seems worn out and hollow in the real future of 2014. That's such a strong idea that I'm willing to forgive some of the episode's sins, at least. *eggs-ecution lol
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Jan 8, 2015 13:42
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Proposition Joe posted:Let's Kill Hitler was a bad episode. Kill the Moon was a bad episode. Every episode with the word 'Kill' is a bad episode so when next season's titles come in we will know which one to avoid. On the other hand, every episode that ends in "of Death" is great, and I'm pretty sure "The Kill of Death" would be the best episode title ever.
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Jan 8, 2015 14:00
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Forktoss posted:On the other hand, every episode that ends in "of Death" is great, and I'm pretty sure "The Kill of Death" would be the best episode title ever. I remember that people used to say every classic serial with the word "Time" in it was terrible, so one called "Time of Death" would probably cause a lot of people to feel confused.
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Jan 8, 2015 14:03
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vegetables posted:I remember that people used to say every classic serial with the word "Time" in it was terrible, so one called "Time of Death" would probably cause a lot of people to feel confused. The Time Warrior is fine 
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Jan 8, 2015 14:06
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Doctor Spaceman posted:The Time Warrior is fine And the Time Meddler is great too!
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Jan 8, 2015 14:11
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vegetables posted:I remember that people used to say every classic serial with the word "Time" in it was terrible, so one called "Time of Death" would probably cause a lot of people to feel confused. From the 4th Doctor onwards they're terrible, anyway.
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Jan 8, 2015 14:15
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I don't think the end would work in isolation from the rest of the episode; the doctor does both the 'right' thing (not taking the ability of the humans present to make their own choices) and the 'wrong' thing (abandoning his friend to make a potentially traumatic decision) while stood in a broken-down pastiche of a classic Doctor Who story. This can't just be any old decision, and making it a completely unintelligible one is probably a better decision than making it a really dark, unpleasant one. And it sets up the very end, where Clara is alone looking at the moon, and this literally massive aspect of life is just sitting there in the sky all hosed up and she may as well be in a different world.
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Jan 8, 2015 14:24
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josh04 posted:I don't think the end would work in isolation from the rest of the episode; the doctor does both the 'right' thing (not taking the ability of the humans present to make their own choices) and the 'wrong' thing (abandoning his friend to make a potentially traumatic decision) while stood in a broken-down pastiche of a classic Doctor Who story. This can't just be any old decision, and making it a completely unintelligible one is probably a better decision than making it a really dark, unpleasant one. It's not really an unintelligible decision, though; I'd prefer it if it was. It's an intelligible decision with consequences that seem -at least to me- forced by the plot rather than naturally emerging from it. I wonder if it would have been better if there explicitly wasn't an explanation for why the moon reappeared at the end, and it was the mystery of it that drove people to the stars as much as anything else? Then you think "oh, wow, how mysterious the universe is!", rather than "this explanation is very silly and takes me out of the drama". It's the fact it happens so inorganically, I guess.
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Jan 8, 2015 14:29
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CobiWann posted:When my nine year old looks at me and says "eggs don't work that way," the science, even if it's more fiction than fact, is just plain wrong and a drag on the episode. Ideally it would have had a line like "but eggs don't work that w-" "it's not an EGG egg, it's an ALIEN egg" to minimise nerdrage about how eggs work.
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Jan 8, 2015 14:29
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2house2fly posted:Ideally it would have had a line like "but eggs don't work that w-" "it's not an EGG egg, it's an ALIEN egg" to minimise nerdrage about how eggs work. In my mind it'd go something like this, except written by an actual writer and not a poster on comedy/video games forum Something Awful: 12: And look! The moon's back! CUT to a shot of the sky. The moon is indeed, back, exactly as it was, as if it had never been destroyed at all. CLARA: Back? But it was destroyed, how can it just be back? 12: No idea! But what I know is that it's not just you asking that question. Right now, all over this planet, suddenly there's a question these clever future people have no answer to. Maybe that's one of the things you'll find out, once you get back out there again. Maybe that's all you needed to go back and explore, to know the universe still has mysteries.
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Jan 8, 2015 14:56
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The best part about watching a completely chronological Doctor Who would be getting to the point where the Earth was destroyed by the sun about three times in a row. The worst part would be everything, including the best part that I just listed. Also nonsequential storytelling is a huge part of what drives Lost and gives each episode, at least in the early seasons and the end, a theme. It would be boring as all hell to watch chronologically. I think I am just going to have to accept that I have the minority opinion on Kill the Moon and somehow live with myself. I still really, really like it!
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Jan 8, 2015 15:03
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Don't worry Bicyclops, most people have SOME bad opinions (ie if they disagree with me)
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Jan 8, 2015 15:09
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Bicyclops posted:The best part about watching a completely chronological Doctor Who would be getting to the point where the Earth was destroyed by the sun about three times in a row. Ah, Bicyclops? Look at the last billion posts- trust me you are not the minority. Kill The Moon is a bad episode if you value the writing at all- I personally dislike it immensely because the entire episode is just a series of events to get Clara and the Doctor to the point in their relationship they are at at the very, very end. Which comes out of no where near the middle and gets easily resolved in the next episode. But the thing is that the series of events that make up this episode are by and large pointless. They feature 'characters' who are not memorable most of whom die very quickly, and consequences that aren't real. This entire episode could have just been set on the Earth, with our heroes having a good old fashioned argument, then the moon explodes and there's a big ole dragon and then the dragon lays a new moon and then they keep on arguing because they literally did nothing to impact the story. Considering how massive the creature was and how the moon should be, those nukes would have done little more than tickle the thing- and more importantly all of the people who went on the suicide mission would have died due to moon spiders anyways. Basically what I'm trying to say is, when Apollo 18 has better writing and understanding of character drama and consequences than a Doctor Who episode, something is extremely wrong. But whatever if you liked it that's fine. Not like this had an actually harmful message or anything. That comes later.
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Jan 8, 2015 15:13
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vegetables posted:It's not really an unintelligible decision, though; I'd prefer it if it was. It's an intelligible decision with consequences that seem -at least to me- forced by the plot rather than naturally emerging from it. I wonder if it would have been better if there explicitly wasn't an explanation for why the moon reappeared at the end, and it was the mystery of it that drove people to the stars as much as anything else? Then you think "oh, wow, how mysterious the universe is!", rather than "this explanation is very silly and takes me out of the drama". It's the fact it happens so inorganically, I guess. Well, there barely are any consequences - especially for us watching, who don't see the miraculous egg-laying but do get to see the status-quo returned. The new moon is a payoff for Clara for having faith and doing the 'right' Doctor-like thing, akin to Martha turning up with the Master-killing gun and being rewarded with Jesus-Doctor. It's not satisfying because Clara isn't satisfied, and if you tried to make it more celebratory you'd run the risk of hurting the actually interesting end of the episode.
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Jan 8, 2015 15:15
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Bicyclops posted:I think I am just going to have to accept that I have the minority opinion on Kill the Moon and somehow live with myself. I still really, really like it! Some Time Lords always trying to ice skate uphill.
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Jan 8, 2015 15:27
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"Kill the Moon" needed more room to breathe and explore its own plot, I think. Perhaps, like "Time Heist", it would've been more effective if it had been given two parts. The second part could have replaced "In the Forest of the Night". Yes? No? Maybe?
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Jan 8, 2015 16:19
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Kill the Moon was extremely divisive at the time, both here and elsewhere. For awhile in this thread the vocal judgment settled on "bad" but the immediate response was much more polarized. The only general consensus is that it isn't mediocre. There's a lot of dumb stuff and some pretty great stuff. Everyone remembers the final sequences between Clara/The Doctor and Clara/Danny, and those are great, but The Doctor's part in the middle when he reveals that the moon is an egg is just brilliant, as long as you don't get stuck on the nonsense of it. Capaldi's delivery of "the moon is an egg" is one the best moments of his Doctor so far, and he's excitement and sense of wonder at it is so perfect and Doctor-like, especially since so much of his Doctor has been grumpy and grouchy up to this point. It's great to see that he's still capable of all that wonder and excitement. And then the response of "how do we kill it?" immediately deflates everything and is awful and also the perfect response for that character. That entire middle scene is one of the best of the season. It's a proper A/F episode, with some of the best parts of the season and some of the worst.
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Jan 8, 2015 16:21
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I value the writing and I disagree with you, Burkion! But I'm sure we went around in circles back when it aired.MrL_JaKiri posted:Don't worry Bicyclops, most people have SOME bad opinions (ie if they disagree with me) No, it is I who holds the TV show opinions which are objectively a moral imperative for a right-thinking society!
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Jan 8, 2015 16:21
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Android Blues posted:I loved Kill the Moon and thought it was really good. If you're willing to overlook the wonky science (which, I'm watching Doctor Who so of course I am) it's a fun time. I love big audacious concepts so when the Doctor is like, "the moon...is an egg!" I was just giddy with delight, because it's such an amazing ridiculous thing for the show to do. See, my problem with it is that it wasn't a "fun time". It was dark, dour, and...well I can't think of another D word but it's bad. The Doctor takes a teenage girl to a moon that may shake apart under their feet, may explode, where she may also be eaten alive by alien spider monsters, and loving leaves? Why would he do that? I know the Doctor endangers the lives of his companions on the regular, but he usually at least tries to help or save them. "Child endangerment" is not usually on his list of fun things to do. And it's certainly not a fun thing to watch. I'm confused on why you would say this episode is a fun time. Apart from the general "the moon is an egg" concept, what is actually fun about this episode? It's one of the least fun episodes this whole season. I like cranky Doctor this season, but he was riding a fine line between fun cranky rear end in a top hat and just complete rear end in a top hat. This episode he jumped way over that line.
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Jan 8, 2015 16:21
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Metal Loaf posted:"Kill the Moon" needed more room to breathe and explore its own plot, I think. Perhaps, like "Time Heist", it would've been more effective if it had been given two parts. The second part could have replaced "In the Forest of the Night". The problem with this as a suggestion, not just here but it comes up a fair bit, is that two-parters aren't just double length episodes. You have to do a lot of arseing around with the structure of the episode so it still works with credits, a week-long gap and another intro sequence between the two parts.
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Jan 8, 2015 16:25
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thrawn527 posted:See, my problem with it is that it wasn't a "fun time". It was dark, dour, and...well I can't think of another D word but it's bad. The Doctor takes a teenage girl to a moon that may shake apart under their feet, may explode, where she may also be eaten alive by alien spider monsters, and loving leaves? Why would he do that? I know the Doctor endangers the lives of his companions on the regular, but he usually at least tries to help or save them. "Child endangerment" is not usually on his list of fun things to do. And it's certainly not a fun thing to watch. Do you remember the bit where they destroy a giant space spider with a detergent spray and a yo-yo? e: or when Clara has to get Courtney to stop putting her adventure in time and space on Tumblr? Android Blues fucked around with this message at 16:42 on Jan 8, 2015 |
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Jan 8, 2015 16:39
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I ranted about Kill the Moon already. It's up there with Helen Raynor's work and Journey's End as the worst episode I've seen of this already-ridiculous program. The best/worst part is that the last five minutes are great but don't land unless you suffer through the prior forty. Series 8 was solid but had an irritating and occasionally concerning habit of taking well-known, well-established scientific facts and going "nah, it's not actually like that" for the sake of a sloppy plot point or a quick gag. The plus-sized dinosaur hacking up the TARDIS was silly but bearable; the entirety of Kill the Moon was silly and unbearable; the Forest episode was downright malicious. Doctor Who's pseudoscience works when it exists apart from established scientific knowledge, not when it's trying to supplant known facts entirely.
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Jan 8, 2015 16:43
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josh04 posted:The problem with this as a suggestion, not just here but it comes up a fair bit, is that two-parters aren't just double length episodes. You have to do a lot of arseing around with the structure of the episode so it still works with credits, a week-long gap and another intro sequence between the two parts. Also true.
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Jan 8, 2015 16:43
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Oxxidation posted:I ranted about Kill the Moon already. It's up there with Helen Raynor's work and Journey's End as the worst episode I've seen of this already-ridiculous program. The best/worst part is that the last five minutes are great but don't land unless you suffer through the prior forty. I was totally fine with the dinosaur in terms of the science stuff because I think for this kind of show, it's okay, for the purposes of fun or storytelling, to largely throw science out the window. I'll admit my suspension of disbelief is probably easier to earn than others that way. I still ended up not liking the dinosaur, though, because it felt like it was from a completely different episode and didn't really go anywhere. Moffat's writing strengths are usually about themes linking everything together, but Deep Breath felt really disorganized for the first half of it. Kill the Moon at least felt like it had a direction.
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Jan 8, 2015 16:53
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Bicyclops posted:No, it is I who holds the TV show opinions which are objectively a moral imperative for a right-thinking society! I think all right thinking people in this thread are sick and tired of being told that ordinary, decent people are fed up in this thread with being sick and tired. I'm certainly not! And I'm sick and tired of being told that I am.
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Jan 8, 2015 17:05
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I'm not like all those slobbering morons with terrible opinions who type all those long, angry screeds about the show! Allow me to express how I am different, with the following long, angry screed:
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Jan 8, 2015 17:10
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I enjoyed Kill The Moon a lot on first and even second viewings, though perhaps less after that once I'd read some critiques here and elsewhere. Like DoctorWhat I've never really been on board with the "science/logic" critiques of the idea being too inherently implausible, that just isn't the kind of thought that ever crosses my mind during any Doctor Who, but the muddled message re: the abortion themes in the story has left my feeling a little uneasy about it in hindsight.
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Jan 8, 2015 18:50
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Rhyno posted:Or possibly John Cleese. John Cleese is the eighth Master?!  CobiWann posted:I think all right thinking people in this thread are sick and tired of being told that ordinary, decent people are fed up in this thread with being sick and tired. I'm certainly not! And I'm sick and tired of being told that I am. 
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Jan 8, 2015 19:18
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DoctorWhat posted:uuuugh But that's not how eggs work and literal children were pointing that out at the time.
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