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Yeah the wiki points out that dwarves don't prefer your "to split" hives over wild colonies, so even after you get your breeding hives going dwarves will still run gaily into the wilderness to grab more bees with their bare hands. And good point about the moveable frame hives. What we need is a dwarven research system.
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Jan 8, 2015 17:12
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Prop Wash posted:Yeah the wiki points out that dwarves don't prefer your "to split" hives over wild colonies, so even after you get your breeding hives going dwarves will still run gaily into the wilderness to grab more bees with their bare hands. To be fair, grabbing a wild colony isn't necessarily a worse idea. Then you're not losing a ready-to-harvest colony in the exchange. You get a new colony AND you can get your bee products.
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Jan 8, 2015 17:22
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I never got why you would bother with all those convoluted food sources when you can easily get more food than you'll ever need through farming.
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Jan 8, 2015 17:37
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Mead, and vague dreams of weaponized bees.
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Jan 8, 2015 17:47
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Shibawanko posted:I never got why you would bother with all those convoluted food sources when you can easily get more food than you'll ever need through farming. Why would we play a convoluted fiction simulator when we could play DOOM?
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Jan 8, 2015 17:48
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It helps with happiness, or at least it did. Admittedly happiness doesn't matter 95% of the time, but when it does it's such an all-or-nothing affair that a few points could be the difference between your best craftsdwarf remaining completely functional vs. starving his or herself to death.
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Jan 8, 2015 17:56
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RedTonic posted:* Bees are assholes and want to sting you; it's easier to kill them all and rob after. I had no idea that's what people were doing historically until it showed up in DF. I love that DF has taught me so much about geology, beekeeping and love.
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Jan 8, 2015 18:10
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StrangeAeon posted:Mead, and vague dreams of weaponized bees. I want to do this but with goblins.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-1GadTfGFvU
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Jan 8, 2015 18:17
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TildeATH posted:I had no idea that's what people were doing historically until it showed up in DF. I've learned more about mineralogy and materials science than I ever wanted to know before DF.  I started DF during the big end-of-DF2012 lull and now my head is totally awhirl with these rapidfire updates. I admit to being hugely impressed; I really need to kick in a chunk of change soon. Back to something moderately critical... Aside from using the clean all/cleanconst commands in dfhack and not using mist generators, does anyone have any tips on managing frame rate death in a matured fortress? As much as I hate it, I abandoned a fort when I hit 2FPS despite my efforts with traffic, animal slaughter, and cleaning. It just wasn't fun to play at that point.
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Jan 8, 2015 18:19
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I find that not engraving things helps out a lot, oddly enough. Smoothing stone is fine, but once you have engravers going over everything, the game has always bogged down under the weight of art for me.
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Jan 8, 2015 18:31
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Do you mean the game slows down from dwarves performing engraving jobs, or just from having engraved stone in your fortress? Because I've never seen anything like the latter. (I don't see the former often either, but that's probably because I only have one or two engravers at a time.)
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Jan 8, 2015 20:59
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RedTonic posted:Back to something moderately critical... Aside from using the clean all/cleanconst commands in dfhack and not using mist generators, does anyone have any tips on managing frame rate death in a matured fortress? As much as I hate it, I abandoned a fort when I hit 2FPS despite my efforts with traffic, animal slaughter, and cleaning. It just wasn't fun to play at that point. I find that the two biggest drains on FPS are pathfinding and number of items laying about. Pathfinding seems to be the biggest impact and it isn't really a linear thing - last night I had a fort with ~80 dwarves running at 150 fps, got a migrant wave and now I have 70-80 fps with 100 dwarves. There's not really all too much you can do about that other than managing your animals well. Don't just let there be 10 cats running around, stuff 'em all into a cage. You only need 1 to watch your food supplies. Same with any other animal wandering about not really doing anything and not needing to eat grass. Puppies, extra pigs, extra anything can all go into 1 cage. I've played around with traffic designations and I guess they help a little but it's not going to be significant really unless you've got a lot of huge rooms. Efficient fort design in the first place is probably more effective - trying to minimize the travel that dwarves have to do. I do block off old mining shafts though. Then there's number of items laying about. If you're like me and like to build way too many farms so you can grow some of everything you'll quickly find yourself having 20,000 cabbages stockpiled (just cabbages mind you). Try to avoid that. It's nice to have a food surplus but you don't need to have enough food squirreled away to last 100 years. As far as DFHack goes, clean all definitely helps a little bit. My other go to commands are cleanowned to get rid off random food and clothes lying everywhere or stuffed into cabinets, and autodump destroy to get rid of all the random bolts/body parts/bits of crap outside that tend to accumulate after a few sieges. If a bunch of crap gets accumulated and I use these two commands I usually notice a 5-15 fps jump immediately. I can usually have a fort with ~150 dwarves on a 5x5 or 6x6 embark with a decent amount of livestock running at 20-40 fps around year 20+. The fps will jump around depending on if there's a lot of goblins on the map or whatever. If it's consistently less than 20 fps it's too slow for me and I usually start a new fort or start looking for why it's running so slow (sometimes an item will be stuck somewhere inaccessible and dwarves will spam pathfinding and canceled jobs trying to put it in a stockpile for example). Also apparently using the option on doors to not let animals through (keep tightly closed) fucks with the pathfinding on animals so just use pastures instead. e: oh and I know people use bridges to crush and remove items but as far as I know that doesn't actually remove the item's ID or whatever from the game so using magma or autodump destroy instead will be better for FPS. ee: lotta words Moridin920 fucked around with this message at 21:52 on Jan 8, 2015 |
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Jan 8, 2015 21:43
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Does autodump actually work? I thought it just tagged items with the hidden status. At least, that's what it seemed to do in my framedeath fortress. Also thanks for all the tips! It's time for me to run a proper zoo instead of opting for a critter bloodbath. 
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Jan 8, 2015 22:09
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scamtank posted:When Meph put out the call for the new, leaner Masterwork, I came forward with my beekeeping do-over. He was pretty pleased by it, so I'm guessing it's going in sooner or later. I tried explaining that if something needs to be removed to simplify the dev process for the new version it ought to be the extraneous crap like the guilds that increase skills. There's so much useless stuff on the back end of the mod that you could simplify or just throw out to make porting the mod to the new version easier. And hell, it could always be added back in later. The actual neat features like being able to dick around as a necromancer in DF mode should stay however. Not sure it came through as meaning that though. 
Archonex fucked around with this message at 00:14 on Jan 9, 2015 |
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Jan 8, 2015 23:44
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:Do you mean the game slows down from dwarves performing engraving jobs, or just from having engraved stone in your fortress? Because I've never seen anything like the latter. (I don't see the former often either, but that's probably because I only have one or two engravers at a time.) Both, in my experience. Having large areas designated for smoothing or engraving starts weighing down the processor, but that's solved by simply selecting smaller areas at a time. But, I also find that the game starts really lagging once you've covered large areas with engravings, as well. If you're only engraving the walls of important areas (dining room, noble rooms, etc) it shouldn't pose a problem, but I had a tendency in the past to try and pre-train my dwarves for the military by making them mine entire layers out, then smoothing and engraving them, under the assumption that getting to legendary status in Mining and Stone Detailing would inflate their strength.
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Jan 9, 2015 04:30
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Is this slowdown from engraving only in the newest versions, or are you just running lower end hardware? Because back in 2012 I would basically designate my whole fortress at one point for smoothing and not see any appreciable difference, on a 955blackx4
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Jan 9, 2015 04:45
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Every last engraving is a separate historical entity that gets tracked, you know. Vast amounts of underground floorspace are bad enough.
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Jan 9, 2015 04:48
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That's terrible news, I love engraving. Living in a gigantic warren where every last inch of rock has been engraved would a trip. You could have legends about old or pious elders that read the entire fortress. Except, most of it would be crude graffiti and scrawls of the countless waves of uneducated migrants.
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Jan 9, 2015 04:54
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The crushing weight of the symbolic world brings about the end of time, 0 fps.
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Jan 9, 2015 05:01
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Maarak posted:The crushing weight of the symbolic world brings about the end of time, 0 fps. Forget heat death. The Dwarven universe will end in a complete state of non-movement; Frame Death.
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Jan 9, 2015 05:02
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Malcolm posted:That's terrible news, I love engraving. Living in a gigantic warren where every last inch of rock has been engraved would a trip. You could have legends about old or pious elders that read the entire fortress. Except, most of it would be crude graffiti and scrawls of the countless waves of uneducated migrants. Sounds like we need an engraving overhaul, which encourages making a small number of high quality engravings.
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Jan 9, 2015 07:10
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I don't think anyone is saying that anything has changed with engraving in years, but it's an interesting point that adding so many to your forts can lead to FPS death. It's a natural progression for an advanced fort to end up covered in engravings, and considering this now, I might be able to preserve the frame rate of future forts a little more by limiting the use of it.
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Jan 9, 2015 07:51
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 Quite the serial killing vampire.
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Jan 9, 2015 11:48
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Lobsterpillar posted:Sounds like we need an engraving overhaul, which encourages making a small number of high quality engravings. Sounds like we need a history overhaul that allows you to turn off tracking every fart as a significant cultural milestone that needs to be stored in memory in hundred of separate iterations.
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Jan 9, 2015 11:59
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Another question, rather more random. For anyone who's done a reclaim of a pregen fort, were all the statues of base quality? Just something I'm curious about.
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Jan 9, 2015 14:29
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steinrokkan posted:Sounds like we need a history overhaul that allows you to turn off tracking every fart as a significant cultural milestone that needs to be stored in memory in hundred of separate iterations. I dunno about that, I feel like part of the charm in DF is exactly that. The guy that engraves an image of his friend installing a hive.
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Jan 9, 2015 14:35
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scamtank posted:Every last engraving is a separate historical entity that gets tracked, you know. Vast amounts of underground floorspace are bad enough. I would imagine it also has to calculate the happiness effects of the engraving for every dwarf that moves past it.
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Jan 9, 2015 14:44
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canepazzo posted:I dunno about that, I feel like part of the charm in DF is exactly that. The guy that engraves an image of his friend installing a hive. I'm personally fond of the guy making an engraving of himself making that same engraving.
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Jan 9, 2015 15:11
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I like to imagine that the engraving of the guy engraving the engraving are Escher-like.
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Jan 9, 2015 15:14
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canepazzo posted:I dunno about that, I feel like part of the charm in DF is exactly that. The guy that engraves an image of his friend installing a hive. Sure, it's cute, but I'd gladly opt out of it if it made mature fortresses less frustrating to play.
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Jan 9, 2015 15:18
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Wolfsbane posted:I would imagine it also has to calculate the happiness effects of the engraving for every dwarf that moves past it. Pretty sure this is the actual problem, or closer to it. Keeping record of every fart in history just leads to a bigger save file but it shouldn't really cause any performance hit when it's not actively being used in any sort of calculation.
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Jan 9, 2015 15:38
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StrangeAeon posted:Having large areas designated for smoothing or engraving starts weighing down the processor, but that's solved by simply selecting smaller areas at a time. But, I also find that the game starts really lagging once you've covered large areas with engravings, as well. If you're only engraving the walls of important areas (dining room, noble rooms, etc) it shouldn't pose a problem, but I had a tendency in the past to try and pre-train my dwarves for the military by making them mine entire layers out, then smoothing and engraving them, under the assumption that getting to legendary status in Mining and Stone Detailing would inflate their strength. It's irresponsible to start rumors like this without reliable evidence.
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Jan 9, 2015 15:50
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It does make sense, unfortunately. After all, for each engraving the game will make a check for each dwarf walking past whether it gives them a happy thought, or is something they detest or whatever, right? I don't imagine it's that demanding though compared to pathfinding and object tracking.
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Jan 9, 2015 15:57
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I haven't really noticed that problem but then again, I don't engrave every last loving square of every room like a spaz. That poo poo looks horrible. There's always at least one smooth wall between engravings, unless I'm making some kind of mural. edit: I mean yeah, engraving every available surface is the easiest way to inflate a room's value, but that's boring. Make some high-quality metal statues instead!
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Jan 9, 2015 18:39
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Elth posted:I haven't really noticed that problem but then again, I don't engrave every last loving square of every room like a spaz. That poo poo looks horrible. There's always at least one smooth wall between engravings, unless I'm making some kind of mural. It looks fine if you hide detailed engravings by default.
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Jan 9, 2015 18:40
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Just had a fort massacred by what I can only call a Were-elephant Spiral. One showed up on the map and killed half my military, infecting two in the process. One month later, the two soldiers transform in the middle of the barracks and kill off all but a handful of the fort... And everyone still alive is infected. Some migrants just arrived, but now I have a half dozen were-elephants to contain before they transform again and kill off the remainder. I think I'll assign them to the military, then send them into the caverns and wall the way up behind them. They can start a new society in the lightless depths.
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Jan 9, 2015 19:47
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ghetto wormhole posted:Pretty sure this is the actual problem, or closer to it. Keeping record of every fart in history just leads to a bigger save file but it shouldn't really cause any performance hit when it's not actively being used in any sort of calculation. I thought engravings just added to the value total value of the room and the room was calculated for mood as a whole? Or do engravings work like statues that can individually be appreciated?
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Jan 9, 2015 20:03
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StrangeAeon posted:Just had a fort massacred by what I can only call a Were-elephant Spiral. One showed up on the map and killed half my military, infecting two in the process. One month later, the two soldiers transform in the middle of the barracks and kill off all but a handful of the fort... Please keep us up to date on these happenings. My sole were-dwarf (a were-llama, who was infected by a human were-llama diplomat/law-giver) ended up locked up in a room with my vampire. (And that rat bastard has migrated to my reclaimed fort, so I walled him in.) e: why'd I write were-vampire? bleh. POOL IS CLOSED fucked around with this message at 20:39 on Jan 9, 2015 |
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Jan 9, 2015 20:07
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A small train of migrants arrived to find the fort totally abandoned, save for some spooked livestock and piles of bodies and dismembered limbs. The food stocks were still plentiful (though the fields were rotting) and supplies were good, so they spent the next season cleaning and interring bits of dwarf into the mausoleums. Meanwhile, far below the surface, the six exiled dwarves have started rebuilding their society. A pick and a training axe were mysteriously gifted to them, and they've set out to carve up some of the caverns. So far they've got a few beds and some tables, as well as a couple basic workshops and, more importantly, a fishery. With food and water secured, it's time to start creating safe stockpiles and perhaps build a still for whatever plants grow down here. All this is made somewhat difficult by the fact that upon transforming, they tend to rampage and destroy their own belongings.
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Jan 9, 2015 20:23
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RedTonic posted:Please keep us up to date on these happenings. Yeah, I have to say, a fortress of nothing but were elephants sounds pretty badass. It's like anti-Boatmurdered, where the elephants the world must fear... are the dwarves.
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