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DoctorWhat posted:uuuugh And the episode is making real-world (and elementary-school) physics subservient to thematic logic. That's even more damning, because it's cheating. You write around established facts, not right loving through them.
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Jan 8, 2015 19:54
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Well on the one hand I thought the moon dragon egg was too stupid for my tastes and this wasn't a good episode. On the other hand time travel is impossible so I can understand people who completely dismiss any concerns about realistic science.
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Jan 8, 2015 19:58
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marktheando posted:Well on the one hand I thought the moon dragon egg was too stupid for my tastes and this wasn't a good episode. On the other hand time travel is impossible so I can understand people who completely dismiss any concerns about realistic science. Time Travel is impossible in THEORY- it could still happen if we some how got tech like Time Lords had, singularity bullshit machines and all that. That's why it's science fiction. The moon secretly being an egg for a great space dragon is not science fiction- that's straight up fantasy and in the dumbest of ways. We don't know for a fact without a doubt that time travel is impossible, and in some respects we know that it ISN'T impossible, just not the way we see it in Who We do know for a fact that the moon isn't loving hollow and there isn't some great big beastie rumbling around in it. We also know what the moon is made of, generally how it was made, and lots of other fun stuff that makes this episode utter toss from the word go. That's just the 'science' the episode throws around, as well. Then you get to the rest of it
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Jan 8, 2015 20:06
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There's just so much you have to swallow for it in-show and out for a conclusion that's not really worth it and will never be brought up again.
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Jan 8, 2015 20:14
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Burkion posted:Time Travel is impossible in THEORY- it could still happen if we some how got tech like Time Lords had, singularity bullshit machines and all that. Oh great, this argument again. No true science fiction.
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Jan 8, 2015 20:15
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Jerusalem posted:In un-chronological related matters, is there ANYBODY who actually liked Kill the Moon? Outside of all the stuff that happens between Clara and the Doctor after the main storyline is resolved? Everything before the "oh you have a choice? Gotta run!" from the Doctor was pretty good I thought. At least everything up through where they meet the first space spider minus I guess the random sombrero in the background of the base.
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Jan 8, 2015 20:20
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marktheando posted:Oh great, this argument again. No true science fiction. I'm sorry, are basic school grade facts getting in the way of your escapist fiction? There's a time and a place for it. This level of nonsense is fine if the Earth is shaped like a disc and placed on the backs of great elephants riding on a turtle, not so much if it tries to take place in the real world. And ultimately- it's not the worst thing. That's the biggest problem with the episode- the fact that the moon is an egg is not the worst thing about it. It's just the start of all the other problems, narrative and thematic. You could change it and say that the moon existed the way we knew it always did, but a great monster showed up and implanted HER egg inside of the moon and now it's ready to hatch and that will make the moon erupt. There, now it makes total sense, and works with the logic of the show. But they couldn't do that because then they couldn't pull off the new moon bullshit at the end and have their cake and eat it too.
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Jan 8, 2015 20:22
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Jerusalem posted:In un-chronological related matters, is there ANYBODY who actually liked Kill the Moon? Outside of all the stuff that happens between Clara and the Doctor after the main storyline is resolved? Kill the Moon is awesome because it made a ton of fans complain that Doctor Who wasn't being realistic.
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Jan 8, 2015 20:29
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Burkion posted:I'm sorry, are basic school grade facts getting in the way of your escapist fiction? I'm fairly confident that Doctor Who doesn't take place in the real world. And bear in mind I didn't like the egg thing in the first place! I think is is stupid! I just think 'this is scientifically unrealistic' is a bad argument against it, given all the other poo poo that happens in this show.
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Jan 8, 2015 20:30
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There is a point, even in the time travel show with the magical screwdriver, where suspension of disbelief becomes too impossible. It's okay to disagree on when that is, I think, particularly for the stuff like too-big dinosaurs or episodes that break their own internal logic. I was able to suspend my disbelief for the episode, which I do not think makes me a bad person or an idiot, but I understand why people were not.
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Jan 8, 2015 20:31
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And yet again you miss my point Mark My point is not that X breaks my suspension of disbelief thus this episode is bad, it's that this episode is bad because it does a lot of bad things. Characters are bad, situation is bad, resolution is bad- the only thing of any worth is the final confrontation between Clara and the Doctor and that's it. It just also has lovely non science to wrap it all up in a nice cozy blanket of failure.
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Jan 8, 2015 20:42
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It's a great episode which sets itself up like a po-face future military story about finding the best way to kill lots of space spiders in a dreary moon-base, then pulls the rug out from under you with the fantastic delivery of "The moon's an egg!" which basically justifies the entire concept. The rest of the episode is then character drama, which works so well that even people who are crazy angry about science recognise it's firing on all cylinders by the end.
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Jan 8, 2015 20:48
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Honestly, it's a bigger mystery how Courtney's spacesuit had the room to smuggle an entire bottle of Windex. Or why she brought it along in the first place. I had to go on a drat scavenger hunt through the episode's intro to find out where that bottle originally came from, it was onscreen for less than two seconds before being revealed as the bane of spider-bacteria.
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Jan 8, 2015 20:49
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Burkion posted:And yet again you miss my point Mark I don't disagree with you on the rest of the episode's problems, I was just talking about the science stuff. Thinking something is silly is fine, and I would agree the egg is silly. But trying to condemn it for not being realistic and talking about the real composition of the moon is also silly. Bicyclops posted:There is a point, even in the time travel show with the magical screwdriver, where suspension of disbelief becomes too impossible. It's okay to disagree on when that is, I think, particularly for the stuff like too-big dinosaurs or episodes that break their own internal logic. I was able to suspend my disbelief for the episode, which I do not think makes me a bad person or an idiot, but I understand why people were not. Yeah pretty much.
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Jan 8, 2015 20:51
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To hell with "suspension of disbelief". The instant you're "suspending your disbelief", you're engaging with fiction wrong. The CORRECT way to engage with fiction is to treat it as ART, as a thematic thing, NEVER as "gossip about imaginary people". And that goes for kids, too.
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Jan 8, 2015 20:52
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josh04 posted:It's a great episode which sets itself up like a po-face future military story about finding the best way to kill lots of space spiders in a dreary moon-base, then pulls the rug out from under you with the fantastic delivery of "The moon's an egg!" which basically justifies the entire concept. The rest of the episode is then character drama, which works so well that even people who are crazy angry about science recognise it's firing on all cylinders by the end. See guys, it is a good episode after all.
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Jan 8, 2015 20:53
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DoctorWhat posted:To hell with "suspension of disbelief". The instant you're "suspending your disbelief", you're engaging with fiction wrong. You probably don't want to make such broad judgements of how people engage with media. Especially when your form of engagement is "obsession so deep and shameless it led to the creation of a ghoulish piece of fan-fiction outerwear." Glass houses.
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Jan 8, 2015 20:55
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BSam posted:See guys, it is a good episode after all. Eh, if you say so.
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Jan 8, 2015 20:57
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josh04 posted:Eh, if you say so. Well it makes a nice change from reading the same post from Burkion five times a page. So I'll take it.
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Jan 8, 2015 21:00
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DoctorWhat posted:To hell with "suspension of disbelief". The instant you're "suspending your disbelief", you're engaging with fiction wrong. That's taking it too far. Stories have to at least have an internal logic to them (unless the whole idea is to do something experimental and surreal, in which case, the rule-breaking actually has its own internal logic), or it takes you out of the story and you're no longer able to appreciate it. If they Doctor suddenly leaped up and started flying like Superman, with no explanation, because the writer needed to get him on a plane, it would be awkward and confusing, because that's not how we were lead to understand his world works.
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Jan 8, 2015 21:01
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DoctorWhat posted:To hell with "suspension of disbelief". The instant you're "suspending your disbelief", you're engaging with fiction wrong. Good lord that's quite the opinion.
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Jan 8, 2015 21:01
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I mean, like, it's one thing if you're watching a Van Italie play or a winking postmodern comedy or something, but something that purports to be pretty narrative-based, which most fiction is, has a duty to try and keep from reminding you that it's just make believe so that you can empathize with the characters and experience the themes emotionally. Otherwise, you could just write an essay.
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Jan 8, 2015 21:05
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Bicyclops posted:If they Doctor suddenly leaped up and started flying like Superman, with no explanation, because the writer needed to get him on a plane, it would be awkward and confusing, because that's not how we were lead to understand his world works. Like the time the Doctor's able to survive a fall from low orbit that ends with him crashing through a plate glass ceiling without having to regenerate, but then when he got a dose of radiation he was done for, even though one of these things killed him once, while he survived the other by shooting the radiation out his foot? Haha! 
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Jan 8, 2015 21:06
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BSam posted:Well it makes a nice change from reading the same post from Burkion five times a page. So I'll take it. When some one finally understands that I'm not basing my criticisms on the fake moon not working like the real moon, I'll stop repeating myself. Also Doctor What, I'm not even sure how to respond to that. That's... You know whatever man. So long as you're happy.
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Jan 8, 2015 21:08
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marktheando posted:And bear in mind I didn't like the egg thing in the first place! I think is is stupid! I just think 'this is scientifically unrealistic' is a bad argument against it, given all the other poo poo that happens in this show. The thing is that you can push things so hard that it breaks the connection to the show. Let's pretend for a moment that next season there's an episode called "The Far Side of the World" and in it the Doctor and Clara discover that the world is flat and there's Monsters of the Week living on the opposite side that can't harm you if you hold your nose. Even if the episode is mess with muddled metaphors, poor characterization, and unpleasant unintended messages, the thing that people are going to keep talking about is how they said the world is flat. It's something so egregiously wrong that it overshadows the episode.
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Jan 8, 2015 21:10
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Metal Loaf posted:Like the time the Doctor's able to survive a fall from low orbit that ends with him crashing through a plate glass ceiling without having to regenerate Time Lords don't believe in gravity. I mean, gravity often believes in Time Lords, but that's neither here nor there.
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Jan 8, 2015 21:11
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Metal Loaf posted:Like the time the Doctor's able to survive a fall from low orbit that ends with him crashing through a plate glass ceiling without having to regenerate, but then when he got a dose of radiation he was done for, even though one of these things killed him once, while he survived the other by shooting the radiation out his foot? Haha! I agree on the fall thing, but there are different types of radiation. Burkion posted:When some one finally understands that I'm not basing my criticisms on the fake moon not working like the real moon, I'll stop repeating myself. You were though.
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Jan 8, 2015 21:11
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Everyone has their limits. One thing that bothers me every time I see it is the way people get knocked out by a blow to the head as a humane way to disable them, and they then wake up almost perfectly fine a few hours later. It's a relatively small sin and it's an easy way to do capture or nonlethal combat and make easy scene transitions, and I can even accept it in hardboiled because, like, that's just kind of how the hardboiled universe works, but for whatever reason, it drives me nuts in just about every other kind of film or TV show. I can get past it, but it makes me roll my eyes, and when an episode has a lot of it, I start not to enjoy myself.
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Jan 8, 2015 21:16
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Bicyclops posted:Everyone has their limits. One thing that bothers me every time I see it is the way people get knocked out by a blow to the head as a humane way to disable them, and they then wake up almost perfectly fine a few hours later. It's a relatively small sin and it's an easy way to do capture or nonlethal combat and make easy scene transitions, and I can even accept it in hardboiled because, like, that's just kind of how the hardboiled universe works, but for whatever reason, it drives me nuts in just about every other kind of film or TV show. I can get past it, but it makes me roll my eyes, and when an episode has a lot of it, I start not to enjoy myself. I think it would really throw me to see a tv show or movie where someone gets knocked out and suffers serious concussion problems afterwards.
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Jan 8, 2015 21:21
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Bicyclops posted:That's taking it too far. Stories have to at least have an internal logic to them (unless the whole idea is to do something experimental and surreal, in which case, the rule-breaking actually has its own internal logic), or it takes you out of the story and you're no longer able to appreciate it. If they Doctor suddenly leaped up and started flying like Superman, with no explanation, because the writer needed to get him on a plane, it would be awkward and confusing, because that's not how we were lead to understand his world works. Stories don't have to have anything in order to be successful stories. There are very nearly no hard-and-fast rules about what stories Need. That said, your Superman-flight example is hardly comparable with "the way the moonegg gains mass ~isn't realistic~". marktheando posted:I agree on the fall thing, but there are different types of radiation. The reason he doesn't die from the fall is because Wilf hasn't knocked yet. Timey-Wimey. Thematic logic takes its rightful priority over simulated physics.
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Jan 8, 2015 21:24
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DoctorWhat posted:Stories don't have to have anything in order to be successful stories. There are very nearly no hard-and-fast rules about what stories Need. You know I don't mind the moon egg, I was talking more generally. Although that first sentence is like a tweet from Guy in Your MFA. It is technically true, but creating a story that resonates with people does, indeed, have a whole bunch of rules, which one learns when becoming a writer and are only to be broken with a very good reason. Bicyclops fucked around with this message at 21:36 on Jan 8, 2015 |
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Jan 8, 2015 21:27
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marktheando posted:I think it would really throw me to see a tv show or movie where someone gets knocked out and suffers serious concussion problems afterwards. Archer has occasional tips of the hat to this kind of thing.
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Jan 8, 2015 21:28
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MrL_JaKiri posted:Archer has occasional tips of the hat to this kind of thing. Discovering Archer was my best tv watching experience of the past year or so.
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Jan 8, 2015 21:35
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DoctorWhat posted:Stories don't have to have anything in order to be successful stories. There are very nearly no hard-and-fast rules about what stories Need. No offense man, all the love to you Never try to be a writer Just please don't
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Jan 8, 2015 21:38
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Burkion posted:No offense man, all the love to you What does DW want to do? I don't think that's ever come up.
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Jan 8, 2015 21:52
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PriorMarcus posted:What does DW want to do? I don't think that's ever come up. gently caress if I know, man.
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Jan 8, 2015 21:55
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DoctorWhat posted:gently caress if I know, man. It is very okay to feel this way in your early 20s in my opinion.
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Jan 8, 2015 21:57
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Bicyclops posted:It is very okay to feel this way in your early 20s in my opinion. It is. I'm nearly 26 and still feeling out my exact career path.
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Jan 8, 2015 22:01
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Bicyclops posted:It is very okay to feel this way in your early 20s in my opinion. If I give you her e-mail address, will you contact my mother and tell her that? 
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Jan 8, 2015 22:03
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Bicyclops posted:It is very okay to feel this way in your early 20s in my opinion. I'm either absurdly incompetent at life OR no one ever really feels like an adult. You just feel like a child doing adult things and hoping it all goes right. I still can't believe someone trusts me to pay several hundred dollars of rent on time. i have not ruled out being absurdly incompetent
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Jan 8, 2015 22:09
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