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SirPhoebos posted:There's got to be an alternative term for the setting trope because for better or worse 'post-apocalypse' brings to mind Mad Max, Terminator and Fallout when it could be applied to a much broader range of settings. There's no reason why a trope about the downfall of civilization has to refer only to 21st century western civilization.
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Jan 9, 2015 02:29
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BatteredFeltFedora posted:There's no reason why a trope about the downfall of civilization has to refer only to 21st century western civilization.
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Jan 9, 2015 02:39
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Does anyone have that post from a million years ago that examine how Tolkien wrote battle scenes and how that related to the way that war was depicted in film and culture something? The Black Company was mentioned. Someone has to know what I'm talking about.
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Jan 9, 2015 07:02
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End Of Worlds posted:Does anyone have that post from a million years ago that examine how Tolkien wrote battle scenes and how that related to the way that war was depicted in film and culture something? The Black Company was mentioned. Someone has to know what I'm talking about.
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Jan 9, 2015 07:22
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SirPhoebos posted:There's got to be an alternative term for the setting trope because for better or worse 'post-apocalypse' brings to mind Mad Max, Terminator and Fallout when it could be applied to a much broader range of settings. Gondor is more about longing for a Golden Age long past. See this: http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ages_of_Man Edit: You could say that LotR is about the ushering in of a Heroic Age.
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Jan 9, 2015 09:21
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:There's also this: I got this one too fairly recently, it's a great version if you're looking for a quality single-volume LOTR. It's a bit cumbersome physically to actually read, but that's probably unavoidable for 1000-page text. I'm considering ripping the maps out because I always rip the edge a little bit anyway whenever I unfold them, am I a bad person?
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Jan 9, 2015 13:44
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Does the 2004 edition offer something over the newer edition?
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Jan 9, 2015 14:42
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Nessus posted:I think it's heavily magnified from D&D and that argument in the council of elrond, mostly. Pong Daddy posted:Well, there was the whole Sack of Doriath thing too, some elves may have still held grudges about that. And weren't dwarves a little pissed nobody else helped them out when they cleared out all those orc fortresses to avenge Thror(or Thrain, I forget which) Right, I'm not saying there was no tension at all, just that it was vastly magnified in the movies. There really wasn't even much of an argument at all at the council of elrond, least of all between Legs and Gims.
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Jan 9, 2015 22:06
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Levitate posted:it was vastly magnified in the movies. Everything is vastly magnified in the movies. There's like zero subtle moments anywhere. Everything is turned up to 11. But it ends up working (for the most part - "shareeee the loaaad"), since the story is epic to begin with. AdmiralViscen posted:Does the 2004 edition offer something over the newer edition? I can't comment on the 50th anniversary edition, but I have the 40th and it owns as well (and looks the same on the outside it seems). It looks like the only major change is adding in the "actual" pages from the Dwarves' book in Moria.
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Jan 9, 2015 23:45
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BatteredFeltFedora posted:Not just the War of Wrath, there have been multiple large and small apocalypses in Middle-Earth. The fall of Eregion, the sinking of Numenor, Moria, the collapse of Arnor and (slower but no less apocalyptic, I think) of Gondor. Even Smaug caused Dale to be a post-apocalyptic sort of area. An important thing to remember is that most historical countries have been pretty heavily populated. Not as much as in the modern world, but if you got on a road and walked for five miles in either direction you'd find a town. Middle Earth is an abandoned world by comparison.
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Jan 10, 2015 00:48
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NovemberMike posted:An important thing to remember is that most historical countries have been pretty heavily populated. Not as much as in the modern world, but if you got on a road and walked for five miles in either direction you'd find a town. Middle Earth is an abandoned world by comparison. Guessing two reasons for that. First, presumably JRRT didn't want to elaborate a whole economic model as it would have been a huge amount of work and his interest was in a) the tale and b) the languages. Second, TH and LOTR are essentially wilderness adventures. Relatively little time is spent in villages and I don't think there are very large cities in the whole of ME. (Is there any comment on the size of the biggest cities and which are they?) JRRT was enamoured with a rural/agrarian/medieval past and cities like Rome, Paris and Cologne were European rather than British. London didn't feature as a large city until well after the medieval period so in British minds, that period is inextricably viewed as low population density, villages and citadels rather than cities. I agree that ME does seem a lot less populated than pre-Black Death (and even post-BD) England was but describing a network of villages and trade routes would have been a huge job and not really to his purpose. What do you think?
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Jan 10, 2015 01:36
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To a certain extent he probably just didn't think about how medieval societies actually organize themselves, but if you take it as a deliberate part of the setting then it does make Middle Earth a lonely and inhospitable place. This fits in well with the rest of the setting.
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Jan 10, 2015 01:45
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A lot of LOTR is also deliberately steering clear of places of habitation I imagine. If they'd gone along the coast of Gondor they'd probably have found many more people (who would have likely either ratted them out to Sauron or take the Ring to Denethor) I assume there were Dunedain settlements here and there, and the Shire and Bree were not exactly empty.
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Jan 10, 2015 01:48
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Yeah, once they left Bree Strider determined that between the 'swarthy half-orcs' that were giving them the stinkeye there and the black Rider attack afterwards their best bet was to head for the hills and take the scenic route to Rivendell. Then after the Council of Elrond the whole secret mission thing necessitated they take yet another long, circuitous route to avoid any settlements, bad guy, good guy or ? (see: Orthanc). So while they could've gone across the Misties where Bilbo et al went and hit up the Beornings and sailed on down the Anduin the whole way they decided that way was too populous/watched and went for Caradhras (which Sauron was able to throw snow at them and make them back down) then finally settled on Moria, since going through the Gap of Rohan would take them way too close to Saruman for Gandalf's liking and he didn't know what was up with the Rohirrim either since rumors of them selling black horses to Mordor were being bandied about and Gandalf and Aragorn were paranoid as all heck. Not to mention Boromir's growing obsession was probably not a good sign about going anywhere near Gondor. Then after Lorien the river was the easiest way to avoid having to make a decision to go straight for the Black Gate or detour to Gondor and it went through what was basically no man's land between the orcs on one side of the river and the Rohirrim on the other. Boromir I think mentions that the orcs had been raiding villages on the Rohan side of the river and that's why it was so deserted, people had all pulled back to the towns and fortifications. But yeah, Middle Earth was pretty depopulated compared to when say, the Numenoreans held sway or the kingdoms of Gondor and Arnor were at their peak. I think it was supposed to be more of a post-Roman pre-midieval period.
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Jan 10, 2015 05:12
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Oh, another thing I hadn't noticed before: When they get to Buckland and all have baths. There are only three bathtubs. No bath for Sam. Merry, Pippin, and Frodo get a happy bath with happy bath song. Sam doesn't. Because he's a servant.
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Jan 10, 2015 06:20
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communist detected ^^
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Jan 10, 2015 06:32
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:Oh, another thing I hadn't noticed before:
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Jan 10, 2015 06:42
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Oracle posted:Caradhras (which Sauron was able to throw snow at them and make them back down) So I rolled my eyes at Saruman summoning snowstorms in the movie, but did Tolkien ever make it explicit what was going on with that weather?
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Jan 10, 2015 10:47
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Runcible Cat posted:Tangential, but was it Sauron? The impression I always got from the book is "Caradhras is a dickhead mountain that hates people and throws poo poo at them if it gets a chance" - I always liked that as an example of other powers in Middle Earth that don't give a poo poo about Rings or Elves or wizards or Sauron, you can all just piss off and stop walking on me. It isn't explicit in the book. Boromir says he hears voices in the wind and thinks the falling rocks are aimed at the party, Aragorn doesn't think there are voices but mentions old evils in the world not necessarily aligned with Sauron, and Gimli gets tinfoily about the actual mountain hating dwarves and elves. The movie takes Boromir's voices and attributes them to Saruman.
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Jan 10, 2015 11:36
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:There's also this: I'm planning to reread tolkien's stuff in the near future and want to finally get my own books instead of repeatedly borrowing the library copies. This definitely seems like the edition of LOTR to go with, but what version of the silmarillion would you guys recommend? The 2004 illustarted hardcover? http://www.amazon.com/The-Silmarillion-J-R-R-Tolkien/dp/0618391118/ref=tmm_hrd_title_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1420888591&sr=8-1
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Jan 10, 2015 12:17
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:Oh, another thing I hadn't noticed before: I always read that as Merry riding ahead and having his bath, then three baths for the three travellers. He's not in there with Frodo and Pippin during the Hot Water song, though. They escape from the Black Riders, and then... quote:‘All right! You and Pippin know your way; so I’ll just ride on and tell Fatty Bolger that you are coming. We’ll see about supper and things.’ Description of Crickhollow, then... quote:The travellers hung up their cloaks, and piled their packs on the floor. Merry led them down the passage and threw open a door at the far end. Firelight came out, and a puff of steam. Sam disappears from the narrative completely for a few pages - he looks over his shoulder at a black shape after crossing the Brandywine, then isn't mentioned again until after dinner when he assists Pippin in re-telling the story of the journey from Hobbiton, so I guess you could still have it either way if you wanted - either he's in there but not mentioned (probably feeling a bit self-conscious in the presence of his betters) or propriety/King's Regulations/whatever doesn't allow him to use the same tub that the Brandybuck arse has recently vacated, or to have his bath at the same time. Trin Tragula fucked around with this message at 13:04 on Jan 10, 2015 |
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Jan 10, 2015 13:01
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Well I found it and it's great so I'm going to repost it here, thanksHieronymous Alloy posted:A more charitable response to the Wheel of Time would be that the Lord of the Rings was a fantasy response to the World Wars (one and two) written by an Oxford professor of ancient Anglo-Saxon literature, while the Wheel of Time is a fantasy response to Vietnam written by an American nuclear engineer. The Belgian posted:I'm planning to reread tolkien's stuff in the near future and want to finally get my own books instead of repeatedly borrowing the library copies. This definitely seems like the edition of LOTR to go with, but what version of the silmarillion would you guys recommend? The 2004 illustarted hardcover? http://www.amazon.com/The-Silmarillion-J-R-R-Tolkien/dp/0618391118/ref=tmm_hrd_title_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1420888591&sr=8-1 This edition is absolutely gorgeous, but it's huge and cumbersome to carry around - it's more of a coffee table book. I'd definitely recommend grabbing it if you like the Silmarillion, but I'm not sure that it'd be the best place to start. I might suggest this one instead: http://www.amazon.com/dp/0544338014/ref=cm_sw_r_tw_dp_0TvSub1FFY742 chernobyl kinsman fucked around with this message at 18:10 on Jan 10, 2015 |
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Jan 10, 2015 18:00
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e: double post
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Jan 10, 2015 18:05
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No Pants posted:It isn't explicit in the book. Boromir says he hears voices in the wind and thinks the falling rocks are aimed at the party, Aragorn doesn't think there are voices but mentions old evils in the world not necessarily aligned with Sauron, and Gimli gets tinfoily about the actual mountain hating dwarves and elves. The movie takes Boromir's voices and attributes them to Saruman. Aragon says something like 'Sauron's arm has grown long indeed if he can hurl snow at us from 300 miles away' and Gandalf replies in typical Gandalf fashion 'His arm has grown long' which I always took as confirmation that Gandalf at least thinks its Sauron behind it, but yeah ultimately its left up to the reader which they believe.
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Jan 10, 2015 18:46
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End Of Worlds posted:Well I found it and it's great so I'm going to repost it here, thanks Thanks! I've already read Tolkien's work multiple times (except unfinisched tales/HoME) and love it, a big fancy edition is exactly what I'm looking for.
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Jan 10, 2015 20:13
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No Pants posted:It isn't explicit in the book. Boromir says he hears voices in the wind and thinks the falling rocks are aimed at the party, Aragorn doesn't think there are voices but mentions old evils in the world not necessarily aligned with Sauron, and Gimli gets tinfoily about the actual mountain hating dwarves and elves. The movie takes Boromir's voices and attributes them to Saruman.
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Jan 11, 2015 11:06
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There's that wonderful chapter where the Fellowship are walking through Hollin and they can sense that the rocks have some kind of sentience or emotion but that may be because they were spoken to long ago by elves, like the forests you mentioned.
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Jan 11, 2015 11:16
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quote:'There is a wholesome air about Hollin. Much evil must befall a country before it wholly forgets the Elves, if once they dwelt there.' In many cases sentience in nature is because the Elves woke them and talked to them. The Ents were there before or at the same time as the Elves but otherwise got along very well. Treebeard mentions that the Elves also woke trees to speak to them as well. There was also Old Man Willow from the Barrow-Downs. He was alive but also a malicious rear end in a top hat. There's an understanding in the text that all nature is alive and could speak if it was so inclined. There's references to sentient rivers as well. The bubbling river in Lothlorien mimics the song of Nimrodel because that's where Amroth drowned, right? HIJK fucked around with this message at 12:10 on Jan 11, 2015 |
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Jan 11, 2015 12:07
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In retrospect I was really lucky to see Fellowship before I read the books because I thought Saruman summoning the storm was an awesome scene. Even with the knowledge from the books I think it's a good scene, it builds up Saruman as a legitimate threat and still depicts Tolkien's magic as more subtle than D&D fireballs; I got the impression that Saruman wasn't creating the storm himself but just directing the clouds towards Caradhras. Also, Gandalf's failed counter-spell nicely indicates the power gap between the two wizards, much better than their Force duel earlier in the film (which I don't hate either but it's probably the cheesiest scene after ALL SHALL LOVE ME).
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Jan 11, 2015 14:59
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I just re watched The Two Towers and I was left wondering something. Why was Saruman powerless to stop the ents from attacking Isengard? I don't have my book with me so I can't check it out, and it seemed really odd that during the attack on Isengard in the movie all Christopher Lee has to do is look around with a weird expression on his face.
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Jan 11, 2015 16:47
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I always understood the power and magic of Saruman to be in his knowledge, crafting, and persuasion, not raw personal offensive magic (and was not fond of much of his portrayal in the movies) but he had a blind spot where the Ents were concerned. He didn't consider them a threat, and when they got riled up and took action (which perhaps would not have happened without Merry and Pippin turning up), much of his forces had already departed. The Ents took losses (some quite severe), and were unable to destroy the tower itself, but flooded the valley and kept him bottled up until Gandalf could deal with him.
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Jan 11, 2015 17:30
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radlum posted:I just re watched The Two Towers and I was left wondering something. Why was Saruman powerless to stop the ents from attacking Isengard? I don't have my book with me so I can't check it out, and it seemed really odd that during the attack on Isengard in the movie all Christopher Lee has to do is look around with a weird expression on his face. He wasn't expecting the Ents to do anything, they waited until his army had left Isengard, Ents are incredibly strong and tough, and Treebeard was able to neutralize his defenses after he managed to kill one Ent.
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Jan 11, 2015 17:45
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Yeah, book Saruman causes some injuries and at least one ent fatality with steam and fire from the underground machinery. The movie battle is (understandably) scaled down quite a bit.
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Jan 11, 2015 17:58
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Pippin pretty much asks the same question about Saruman's magic in Two Towers right before they go to talk to him.quote:'What's the danger?' asked Pippin. 'Will he shoot at us, and pour fire out of the windows; or can he put a spell on us from a distance?' And a little before that, Aragorn and Pippin are talking specifically about Saruman's voice: quote:'No,' said Aragorn. 'Once he was as great as his fame made him. His knowledge was deep, his thought was subtle, and his hands marvellously skilled; and he had a power over the minds of others. The wise he could persuade, and the smaller folk he could daunt. That power he certainly still keeps. There are not many in Middle-earth that I should say were safe, if they were left alone to talk with him, even now when he has suffered a defeat. Gandalf, Elrond, and Galadriel, perhaps, now that his wickedness has been laid bare, but very few others.'
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Jan 11, 2015 20:13
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I thought that scene where Saruman just sounds so reasonable and persuasive and everyone's sort of drooping and figuring now he's going to go plot with Gandalf and maybe Aragorn and they'll all just sit tight until they get instructions was quite on point. It reminded me of the discouragement people feel nowadays about politics, though unfortunately we are short on Gandalfs to dispel things.
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Jan 12, 2015 00:03
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Gandalf and Saruman only really have the power to manipulate others, Saruman with his words and Gandalf with his presence. To me it's fairly clear that Saruman's voice is so powerful it even works on Gandalf, right up until the point where Gandalf is taken prisoner (hence why he doubts Saruman but doesn't actually do anything about it until much later). I find all the "wizard duel" stuff in the movies really off-putting, particularly that scene in Fellowship where Gandalf and Saruman fight. I actually find Galadriel-as-barely-contained-sorcerer to be more believable and in keeping with the books than wizard fights.
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Jan 12, 2015 01:08
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I always thought it was interesting how similar Sauron and Saruman end up being - both Maiar of Aule, both with an interest in machines and efficiency, both having a great talent for manipulating people using rhetoric. Aule really had bad luck with Maiar.
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Jan 12, 2015 02:08
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Honestly, knowing Tolkien's views on industry, and Aule's focus on personal craft and his own designs, it does kind of make sense. And isn't there a throwaway line about how Aule was really similar in terms of his mentality to Melkor? If any Maiar were gonna go bad, seems like they'd be his.
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Jan 12, 2015 02:19
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Yeah, Aulë himself also defied the will of Ilúvatar when he created the Dwarves, so a rebellious streak in his Maiar isn't totally a surprise. They weren't the only ones though - Ossë was Ulmo's vassal, and he went bad for a bit.
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Jan 12, 2015 06:21
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Nessus posted:I thought that scene where Saruman just sounds so reasonable and persuasive and everyone's sort of drooping and figuring now he's going to go plot with Gandalf and maybe Aragorn and they'll all just sit tight until they get instructions was quite on point. It reminded me of the discouragement people feel nowadays about politics, though unfortunately we are short on Gandalfs to dispel things. I don't think it was Gandalf that did a whole lot, it was Theoden who looked like he was being persuaded and then said "what the gently caress you've waged war on us and killed our people gently caress you" and then Saruman flipped his poo poo at that and that kind of broke the spell e: actually a little of both. Theoden resisted Saruman himself and that surprised his people and Saruman's reaction at the refusal also kind of alienated them, but then Saruman put all his effort into charming Gandalf and everyone else was thinking like what you said until Gandalf laughed at him. Levitate fucked around with this message at 13:32 on Jan 12, 2015 |
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Jan 12, 2015 13:28
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