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Necc0 posted:i read a really great article a while ago about the history of the shopping mall and it's a real shame about what happened to them but otoh they totally deserve to die knowing their history. originally they were imagined to be community centers that people would just go to for the hell of it just for the sake of being there. basically massive indoor parks with rec centers, public pools, shops, etc etc. the bean counters didn't think this was profitable enough so they changed it to the modern 'make sure everyone is just uncomfortable enough so they keep moving and don't loiter' and surprise no one likes going to them. James Kuntzler covered exactly this in The Geography of Nowhere. It's impossible to make a private space like a mall a public space because the point of public space is that you can do what you want (loosely within the law). As soon as there are management and security there to tell you to gtfo if they don't like you, it ceases to be a gathering space.
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Jan 10, 2015 02:18
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Metrication posted:when i was in school we had an english exam and one of the texts you had to read during it was about a british man who had moved with his family to america. he lived in one of those big mcmansion housing developments (this was at the height of the bush era) and there was no pavement to walk on around this vast estate so the only option was to drive everywhere. when he invited his neighbours over for dinner they drove from next door lmao Which Bush era, and was this text mocking or glorifying this lifestyle?
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Jan 10, 2015 02:19
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fits my needs posted:i'm surprised there isn't a modern day luddite movement blowing up amazon fulfillment centers and stuff. their called medievalists
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Jan 10, 2015 02:20
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fits my needs posted:i'm surprised there isn't a modern day luddite movement blowing up amazon fulfillment centers and stuff. if they existed they'd probably be blowing up google or something instead the ones who'd want to blow up amazon fulfillment centers would probably be socialists, everything about amazon is a monument to the worst aspects of capitalism
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Jan 10, 2015 02:31
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Citizen Tayne posted:James Kuntzler covered exactly this in The Geography of Nowhere. It's impossible to make a private space like a mall a public space because the point of public space is that you can do what you want (loosely within the law). As soon as there are management and security there to tell you to gtfo if they don't like you, it ceases to be a gathering space. also everyone here would probably enjoy Kunstler's eyesore of the month feature 
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Jan 10, 2015 02:51
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eschaton posted:also everyone here would probably enjoy Kunstler's eyesore of the month feature Kunstler has turned into a bit of a crank in his old age, but he is absolutely right about what we've done to our communities.
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Jan 10, 2015 02:52
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Jan 10, 2015 02:54
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Citizen Tayne posted:James Kuntzler covered exactly this in The Geography of Nowhere. It's impossible to make a private space like a mall a public space because the point of public space is that you can do what you want (loosely within the law). As soon as there are management and security there to tell you to gtfo if they don't like you, it ceases to be a gathering space. 
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Jan 10, 2015 02:55
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rjmccall posted:walk on the freeway, subvert the suburban auto conformism complex haha last time i was in sf i got off at the wrong caltrain stop so i was hella outside city limits but i walked it cause gently caress waiting. i guess looking at a map i was at south sf i did not see a single person on foot from there to the mission. there were parks and poo poo but nobody on foot anywhere, it was like the twilight zone
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Jan 10, 2015 02:57
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Citizen Tayne posted:James Kuntzler covered exactly this in The Geography of Nowhere. It's impossible to make a private space like a mall a public space because the point of public space is that you can do what you want (loosely within the law). As soon as there are management and security there to tell you to gtfo if they don't like you, it ceases to be a gathering space. lol at the idea that it stops being a gathering space. its merely a gathering space for a smaller subset.
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Jan 10, 2015 02:58
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Nintendo Kid posted:lol at the idea that it stops being a gathering space. its merely a gathering space for a smaller subset.
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Jan 10, 2015 02:58
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yes, the mall of america continued letting a lot of other people gather there. glad you noticed. its not like that's much different from actual town/city squares in reality.
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Jan 10, 2015 02:59
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As a Millennial I posted:I am driver, only on weekends. I have a good 9-5 job where it only take me 10-15 minutes to get to work, about 8 miles away. I, too, drive 75 MPH the entire way to work.
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Jan 10, 2015 03:00
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Nintendo Kid posted:yes, the mall of america continued letting a lot of other people gather there. glad you noticed. I grew up far away from malls and the idea of the shopping center as a gathering place, and a mall has nothing in common with a high street other than being a place to buy poo poo. Absolutely nothing.
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Jan 10, 2015 03:01
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Nintendo Kid posted:its not like that's much different from actual town/city squares in reality.  it is very much different holy poo poo
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Jan 10, 2015 03:01
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You and your neighbors own the square and can do whatever the gently caress you want there, as long as you aren't breaking the law. A real estate company owns the mall and can tell you to leave at their leisure. It's a pretty big difference.
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Jan 10, 2015 03:02
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Snapchat A Titty posted:
oh really?  Citizen Tayne posted:You and your neighbors own the square this is where you're already wrong.
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Jan 10, 2015 03:03
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Nintendo Kid posted:oh really? Are you saying that there is an equivalency between public property and a private shopping complex as far as freedom of assembly goes?
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Jan 10, 2015 03:05
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Citizen Tayne posted:Are you saying that there is an equivalency between public property and a private shopping complex as far as freedom of assembly goes? as far as they go, both can have the "owners" violently remove you at any time, as well as having a history of the "wrong sort" of public being barred from entry or lingering
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Jan 10, 2015 03:07
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Nintendo Kid posted:as far as they go, both can have the "owners" violently remove you at any time, as well as having a history of the "wrong sort" of public being barred from entry or lingering The difference is that the letter of the law says that public property belongs to everyone. The letter of the law says that the mall quite explicitly doesn't. You can fight being beaten and thrown out of the park. You can't fight being thrown out of the mall because you never had a right to be there to begin with.
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Jan 10, 2015 03:09
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Nintendo Kid posted:oh really? idgi, thats from occupy somewhere? youre saying that old public places in america are entirely as lovely as the indoor malls?
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Jan 10, 2015 03:09
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Snapchat A Titty posted:idgi, thats from occupy somewhere? youre saying that old public places in america are entirely as lovely as the indoor malls? The place Fishmech grew up is entirely devoid of places for young adults and teenagers to hang out at except for malls. He instinctively trolled before thinking.
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Jan 10, 2015 03:11
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Citizen Tayne posted:The difference is that the letter of the law says that public property belongs to everyone. The letter of the law says that the mall quite explicitly doesn't. the letter of the law may say that, it doesn't mean jackshit. you can fight being thrown out of a park but it will do nothing. Citizen Tayne posted:The place Fishmech grew up is entirely devoid of places for young adults and teenagers to hang out at except for malls. He instinctively trolled before thinking. this is untrue, we had plenty of parks and a centuries old downtown
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Jan 10, 2015 03:13
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Nintendo Kid posted:the letter of the law may say that, it doesn't mean jackshit. So, are you saying that there is an equivalency between public property and a private shopping complex as far as freedom of assembly goes?
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Jan 10, 2015 03:13
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Citizen Tayne posted:Kunstler has turned into a bit of a crank in his old age, but he is absolutely right about what we've done to our communities. "in the absence of architectural detail you get television"
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Jan 10, 2015 03:16
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Citizen Tayne posted:So, are you saying that there is an equivalency between public property and a private shopping complex as far as freedom of assembly goes? yes, in america since about forever. especially if you are any sort of minority.
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Jan 10, 2015 03:17
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Nintendo Kid posted:yes, in america since about forever. especially if you are any sort of minority. You heard it here first, there is no difference between public property and private property under American law.
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Jan 10, 2015 03:19
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That's a pretty weakass troll, you can do better.
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Jan 10, 2015 03:19
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Citizen Tayne posted:That's a pretty weakass troll, you can do better. He's busy sparring in the InfoSec thread. They can't all be winners.
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Jan 10, 2015 03:22
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EFNrz8goEhs i remember really liking this bit because "sir sir you're not allowed a camera in here" was lame but then it's tom green so
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Jan 10, 2015 03:23
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Citizen Tayne posted:You heard it here first, there is no difference between public property and private property under American law. there really isn't in practice. try and hold a protest in pitsburgh square
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Jan 10, 2015 03:23
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Nintendo Kid posted:there really isn't in practice. try and hold a protest in pitsburgh square There are protests in Market Square pretty frequently, including a really graphic abortion protest (with horrible placards) and a protest against police brutality a few weeks ago and a protest against fast food wages recently (both of the last two shut down traffic).
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Jan 10, 2015 03:25
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Here's footage of another protest against lovely fast food wages in Market Square from late 2013: http://pittsburgh.cbslocal.com/2013/12/05/fast-food-workers-across-country-protest-federal-minimum-wage/
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Jan 10, 2015 03:26
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Here's a story about a Occupy protest against tax loopholes in Market Square: http://www.post-gazette.com/local/city/2012/04/17/Market-Square-protesters-play-Taxpayer-Dodgeball/stories/201204170195
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Jan 10, 2015 03:27
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wow, look, another lovely wage protest in Market Square: http://pittsburgh.cbslocal.com/2014/12/04/fast-food-workers-demand-higher-wages-at-protest-downtown/
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Jan 10, 2015 03:28
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Sure seems like a lot of protesting goes on Pittsburgh's big city square. lol
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Jan 10, 2015 03:28
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Wow, look, a newspaper article from 1986 about antiabortion protesters displaying fetus pictures in Market Square. http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=2519&dat=19860120&id=RjdiAAAAIBAJ&sjid=1XYNAAAAIBAJ&pg=3995,2282787
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Jan 10, 2015 03:30
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I guess they could just hold all these protests at South Hills Village Mall though. lmao
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Jan 10, 2015 03:30
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Nintendo Kid posted:yes, in america since about forever. especially if you are any sort of minority. lol america
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Jan 10, 2015 03:34
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hmm sure are a bunch of mostly white and middle class people protesting there
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Jan 10, 2015 03:34
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