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I've also heard the argument that not having life sentences and other insanely long sentences is one of the reason for the lack of "pulled over for taillight, has warrants, shoots cops"-type of blaze that happens in the United States. Surprisingly, when you give people hope, they act better.
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Jan 2, 2015 18:31
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Vahakyla posted:I've also heard the argument that not having life sentences and other insanely long sentences is one of the reason for the lack of "pulled over for taillight, has warrants, shoots cops"-type of blaze that happens in the United States. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=381Di8Cw0-I
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Jan 5, 2015 00:03
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Shroom King posted:"3 strikes laws" are bullshit That's one of those things that never made sense to me even when I was a kid. I mean, when a then-hardline conservative teenager can look at a law like that and wonder "wait, so you're giving them nearly nothing left to lose, with the only possibility of anything worse being the death penalty, and you think they're not going to do worse poo poo to make it 'worth it'?", one has to wonder just how dumb the people who think it's great are.
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Jan 5, 2015 01:07
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Kugyou no Tenshi posted:That's one of those things that never made sense to me even when I was a kid. I mean, when a then-hardline conservative teenager can look at a law like that and wonder "wait, so you're giving them nearly nothing left to lose, with the only possibility of anything worse being the death penalty, and you think they're not going to do worse poo poo to make it 'worth it'?", one has to wonder just how dumb the people who think it's great are. They go nicely with the people who think the punishment for sexually abusing a child should be equal/worse than the punishment for murder. Because that has no chance of ending badly...
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Jan 5, 2015 01:10
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PT6A posted:They go nicely with the people who think the punishment for sexually abusing a child should be equal/worse than the punishment for murder. Because that has no chance of ending badly... Just to make sure I understand you, you mean because the penalties being equal means that it's always in the abuser's interest to murder the child afterward to reduce the likelihood of being caught?
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Jan 5, 2015 18:55
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LeftistMuslimObama posted:Just to make sure I understand you, you mean because the penalties being equal means that it's always in the abuser's interest to murder the child afterward to reduce the likelihood of being caught? There's that, although I'm not sure if it's a major factor in whether child abusers decide to kill their victim to avoid getting caught, but I'd certainly consider it a risk. There's also the damaging psychological aspect that basically tells victims, "well, you'd basically be better off dead," which can't be at all helpful. Granted, abusing a child sexually is really, really bad, but I just don't think it's as bad as killing someone in cold blood.
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Jan 5, 2015 19:04
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I would add that the "lock them up and throw away the key" mentality increases recidivism because we're not actually going to do that. We're going to lock them up for a long time, then let them out without treatment. Then they'll be out, with all the lovely outcomes of a felon; increased homelessness, inability to get a job etc. Our "get tough" rhetoric is literally seeding the bushes with homeless child molesters.
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Jan 5, 2015 19:20
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SedanChair posted:I would add that the "lock them up and throw away the key" mentality increases recidivism because we're not actually going to do that. We're going to lock them up for a long time, then let them out without treatment. Then they'll be out, with all the lovely outcomes of a felon; increased homelessness, inability to get a job etc. Our "get tough" rhetoric is literally seeding the bushes with homeless child molesters. I agree we should honestly just bring back corporal punishment and public executions. I really think that would reduce recidivism.
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Jan 5, 2015 19:46
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Totally what I was saying.
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Jan 5, 2015 19:58
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It is a drastic change and one that is sorely needed.
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Jan 5, 2015 20:00
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I disagree on the "public executions" part, but it's really hard to argue with the concept that corporal punishment that didn't inflict lasting injury would be better than the system currently in place in the US. Granted, there are many, many better options than both, but if we're just comparing the two... well, it's impossible to not reach a very uncomfortable conclusion, in my opinion.
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Jan 5, 2015 20:09
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Prison sentences are both too long, and too common. I guess this is a controversial opinion for most of the US public.
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Jan 5, 2015 20:16
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Lot of one-liners in here. I'd say something snide, but I'm as disillusioned as the rest of you  Also, I like your text, Powercrazy 
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Jan 5, 2015 20:47
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PT6A posted:I disagree on the "public executions" part, but it's really hard to argue with the concept that corporal punishment that didn't inflict lasting injury would be better than the system currently in place in the US. Granted, there are many, many better options than both, but if we're just comparing the two... well, it's impossible to not reach a very uncomfortable conclusion, in my opinion. It's not really all that uncomfortable to me, just weird - ask anyone if they'd rather spend a year in a US jail or get 10 lashes. Personally I would expect a near unanimous result. I'm not sure where the line would have to be where people start choosing jail. Presuming that a doctor would oversee it and stop it if it became life threatening, I would genuinely support prisoners being given the choice between lashes and the current system, it'd be a strict improvement.
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Jan 5, 2015 20:54
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His Purple Majesty posted:It is a drastic change and one that is sorely needed. That's my point though. The blood-and-guts types only get part of what they want. Thanks to their contributions, we get a system that is neither as punitive as 17th century Venice nor rehabilitative. Punishment fetishists propagate the status quo by advocating for extreme measures that will never be fully adopted.
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Jan 5, 2015 20:55
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Powercrazy posted:Prison sentences are both too long, and too common. I guess this is a controversial opinion for most of the US public. For most, criminals are not people.
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Jan 5, 2015 20:57
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Vahakyla posted:For most, criminals are not people. They lost that privilege when they break societys laws willingly.
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Jan 5, 2015 21:25
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His Purple Majesty posted:They lost that privilege when they break societys laws willingly. A mindset we surely extend to white collar criminals, who ruin many more lives!
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Jan 5, 2015 21:27
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SedanChair posted:A mindset we surely extend to white collar criminals, who ruin many more lives! I strongly agree! White collar crime should be treated the same as murder, sex crimes, theft etc.
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Jan 5, 2015 21:30
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His Purple Majesty posted:I strongly agree! White collar crime should be treated the same as murder, sex crimes, theft etc. You don't actually agree, because your reptile brain blurted out law-and-order canards in response to sex crimes, not any of that other stuff. You may have higher brain functions that reason differently, but they don't seem to have any effect.
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Jan 5, 2015 21:49
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SedanChair posted:You don't actually agree, because your reptile brain blurted out law-and-order canards in response to sex crimes, not any of that other stuff. You may have higher brain functions that reason differently, but they don't seem to have any effect. So people don't choose to commit rape and molestation? "I'm sorry your honor I just had a strong craving for some rape today" doesn't sit well with me.
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Jan 5, 2015 21:57
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His Purple Majesty posted:So people don't choose to commit rape and molestation? "I'm sorry your honor I just had a strong craving for some rape today" doesn't sit well with me. Mental illness does work like that, oftentimes, believe it or not. e: And just to be clear, by saying that I don't mean there shouldn't be any consequences.
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Jan 5, 2015 22:00
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So if we let rapists off the hook because of mental illness why not white collar criminals? Many of them are sociopaths with a disdain for others why not give them some half hearted counselling and let them back on the street too?
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Jan 5, 2015 22:05
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His Purple Majesty posted:So if we let rapists off the hook because of mental illness why not white collar criminals? Many of them are sociopaths with a disdain for others why not give them some half hearted counselling and let them back on the street too? I'm not against abolishing imprisonment in most cases for all offender.
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Jan 5, 2015 22:10
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His Purple Majesty posted:So if we let rapists off the hook because of mental illness why not white collar criminals? Many of them are sociopaths with a disdain for others why not give them some half hearted counselling and let them back on the street too? I clarified explicitly they shouldn't be let off the hook. I'm just saying that we shouldn't treat people with a mental illness (whether that caused them to rape a kid or ruin the lives of thousands of people through some financial scheme) as people that lost the 'privilege' of being treated humanely. We, as a society, can and should be better than that.
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Jan 5, 2015 22:11
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Powercrazy posted:Prison sentences are both too long, and too common. I guess this is a controversial opinion for most of the US public. Much of the U.S. public believes that deterrence is the only thing that can possibly reduce crime so obviously if there are still people doing crimes we aren't deterring hard enough. This mixed with the fact that cities tend to have higher crime rates and a lot of conservatives are terrified of   URBAN FERALS you get them voting for whoever promises to punish criminals harder than the last guy.A lot of it stems from outright xenophobia really. Other snags we run into are the private prison industry creating pressure to generate more criminals. Economically depressed areas are pleased as peaches to have a prison built because HELL YEAH, JOBS!!! The fact that the prison is probably going to be crammed full of non-violent criminals convicted of petty crimes is irrelevant. Throw 'em in the can, obliterate the key. gently caress 'em. Prison sentences isn't even the whole of the problem. Some jurisdictions deliberately set up people leaving jail for failure. You're practically guaranteed to be in an out of jail for the rest of your life over a small baggie full of pot.
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Jan 5, 2015 22:16
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His Purple Majesty posted:So people don't choose to commit rape and molestation? "I'm sorry your honor I just had a strong craving for some rape today" doesn't sit well with me. http://www.radiolab.org/story/317421-blame/
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Jan 5, 2015 22:28
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His Purple Majesty posted:So if we let rapists off the hook because of mental illness why not white collar criminals? Many of them are sociopaths with a disdain for others why not give them some half hearted counselling and let them back on the street too? You're so close to getting it. Whatever we do, it shouldn't be half-hearted.
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Jan 5, 2015 22:33
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SedanChair posted:You're so close to getting it. Whatever we do, it shouldn't be half-hearted. Which is why we need to make sure that all crimes are punished swiftly and harshly with out discrimination based on race or social class.
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Jan 6, 2015 00:20
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His Purple Majesty posted:Which is why we need to make sure that all crimes are punished swiftly and harshly with out discrimination based on race or social class. Yes, while simultaneously creating economic conditions that disproportionately turn certain races to crime. It's a nice fantasy but America is presently a society where being rich and powerful means you avoid punishment, and people seem a-ok with it. Megaman's Jockstrap fucked around with this message at 01:11 on Jan 6, 2015 |
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Jan 6, 2015 01:04
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His Purple Majesty posted:Which is why we need to make sure that all crimes are punished swiftly and harshly with out discrimination based on race or social class. Why "harshly?"
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Jan 6, 2015 02:09
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His Purple Majesty posted:They lost that privilege when they break societys laws willingly. The rhetoric of genocide is probably not so good for criminal justice.
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Jan 6, 2015 21:52
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Is this real? This better not be real. http://thefreethoughtproject.com/child-molesting-cops-treated-corrupt-police-state/
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Jan 7, 2015 20:38
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gently caress that. Slapping years onto the sentence and hailing it as justice is messed up and holding that other dude's 66 year sentence up as a good example is horrendous. Plus there are plenty of similar rulings for similar offences.
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Jan 10, 2015 07:18
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Stop pretending that: 1/ prison is about rehabilitation. It never has been, never will be. It is retribution. Whether this is right or wrong is another matter. 2/ the wealthy / privileged are punished in proportion to the damage that they do to society. Steal a car: prison. Steal a billion: bailout and a bonus.
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Jan 10, 2015 10:42
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Shroom King posted:Is this real? This better not be real. I will say that everytime I hear special treatment in cases like this, I wonder. The articles never talk about the strength and weakness of a case. And unlike most child molesters who seem to confess almost immedately, cops know to shut the gently caress up. This isn't to say that genetally cops and the like will get the kid glove treatment, but child molests are different. I've never seen a case locally where a cop actually charged (meaning the da actually believes the victim) get any special treatment on these types of crimes. Even the blue wall falls for 288s.
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Jan 10, 2015 20:53
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Vahakyla posted:gently caress that. Slapping years onto the sentence and hailing it as justice is messed up and holding that other dude's 66 year sentence up as a good example is horrendous. Plus there are plenty of similar rulings for similar offences. Can we agree that 66 years is too long and 30 days is too short of a sentence? 
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Jan 10, 2015 22:23
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Shroom King posted:Can we agree that 66 years is too long and 30 days is too short of a sentence? No, we need to argue about it for at least 30 more pages.
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Jan 10, 2015 23:52
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Pudding Space posted:Stop pretending that: 1. Prison was actually created to keep black people away from everyone else. 2. The wealthy make large donations to certain political groups, like the democrats and the republicans, and certain politicians, which is why they don't get punished. Also, the American economy would implode if we actually let companies fail as a result of bad business practices; we must keep their rotting corpses propped up because it makes perfect sense for us to reward bad behavior. And that is why we put so many black people in prison. It gives them street cred, which is a good thing. In a way, we are rewarding them for engaging in criminal activities. Besides, who wouldn't want free room and board? It's not like anyone in prison has to do hard labor. lurker1981 fucked around with this message at 03:29 on Jan 11, 2015 |
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Jan 11, 2015 03:24
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So, NY Times posted a lengthy article this week about the maximum security Halden prison in Norway, which you can find herequote:The treatment of inmates at Halden is wholly focused on helping to prepare them for a life after they get out. Not only is there no death penalty in Norway, there are no life sentences. The whole article is a good read, and at the end it goes into the unreliability of prison statistics and reincarceration rates quote:Fifteen pages into the Bureau of Justice Statistics report, I found a two-year reincarceration rate, probably the best available comparison to Norway’s measures. Kristoffersen’s caveat in mind, that translated to a much less drastic contrast: Norway, 25 percent; the United States, 28.8 percent. quote:“You have to be aware — there’s a logical type of error which is common in debating these things,” he said. “That is, you shouldn’t mix two kinds of principles. The one is about : How do you fight crimes? How do you reduce recidivism? And the other is: What are the principles of humanity that you want to build your system on? They are two different questions.”
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Mar 29, 2015 20:18
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