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wielder posted:I honestly admire all of the people who tried to decypher the symbols in every single episode of Penguindrum when it was airing, as well as those who are starting to do the same with Yuri Kuma Arashi, but I'd honestly prefer to sit back and take it all in first for a few weeks, before attempting to put forward any detailed speculation that could be easily proven completely or partially wrong at this early stage of the game. Ikuhara is the sort of creator who can be simultaneously surprisingly clever, transparently heavy-handed and even just way too surreal for a normal person to comprehend at first glance. I absolutely agree in the futility, but think its fun and enjoyable to attempt to anyways.
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Jan 9, 2015 04:55
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Sharkopath posted:I absolutely agree in the futility, but think its fun and enjoyable to attempt to anyways. Pretty much this, speculation based on one episode is pointless but then arguing about symbolism is what Ikuhara shows are there for in the first place.
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Jan 9, 2015 04:57
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The Utena movie had some gorgeous animation and music, but the plotting and characterization felt rushed and haphazard. I see no reason as to why they included Miki and his sister at all when they literally don't do anything. They cut Nanami (except for a "cameo") so it's not like they felt they had to include everyone. Or they could have included everyone and had enough time to wrap up everything if they hadn't decided to have a 20 minute long car chase  It's like they started writing the movie as an "what if" version where Utena and Anthy actually talk and resolve stuff quickly (the first 15-20 minutes are great), then they got bored and just said'screw it' and just threw in everything they could think of with no regards to whether it fit or not. The Touga plot felt flat and romance felt incredibly rushed and forced. Sure, it's just a short movie, not a 39 episode show, but they definitely could have done a better job, I think. Love the ever-changing school, though. It looks like a theater set, with different parts constantly being shuffled around.
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Jan 9, 2015 10:13
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Some people regard it as a sequel set in the world Utena revolutionized, one last go before she can fully break the cycle, hence why Anthy seems to "know" stuff. It's not meant to be viewed on its own.
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Jan 9, 2015 14:09
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So if this thread is about to be gassed... and it's about bears... Bearnica?
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Jan 9, 2015 15:37
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Srice posted:If anything a thread for an Ikuhara show seems like the perfect place to go hog wild with that. Right, you asked for this, and thanks to submitting my assignment yesterday, I've got a clear schedule. Let's do this. OK, first off, let's state the blindingly obvious - this is a show about yuri. It's called Yuri Bear Storm, the female characters are labelled 'yuri', and there's a literal court that determines what is and is not acceptable yuri. Since Ikuhara is one of those highfalutin directors who includes messages and themes and all that poo poo in his work, it seems reasonable to guess that we're looking at an examination of the yuri genre and Japanese attitudes towards female homosexuality in general. It's not 100% sure what he'll say about this, but it's clear that he's addressing it. With that in mind, let's look at the history and origins of yuri as a popular literary genre. Around the early twentieth century, a socioliterary trend called Class S took off. Inspired by the Western concept of romantic friendship, which had been imported via Victorian literature during Meiji Japan's frantic Westernisation, it held that girls should form close, romantic friendships with each other in order to train themselves as proper wives for their future husbands, as part of the 'good wife, wise mother' philosophy brought in to indoctrinate Japanese women as good little baby-factories for the expanding empire. It had a lot of cross-pollination with the legendary Takurazuka Revue founded in 1914, which I'm sure many Ikuhara fans are familiar with. For the uninitiated, the Revue is a musical theatre troupe based on traditional Japanese kabuki, with the big twist that rather than being all-male, the actors are all-female. It's loud, hammy, garish, and hyper-stylised - sound familiar? Anyway, Takurazuka occupies a complex place in Japanese feminism and LGBT rights. It's often viewed as a liberating force, allowing women to escape the bounds of their gender, but while the actors are women, the whole spectacle is very male-controlled - the directors and backstage staff heavily skew towards men, and the original creator of the Revue, Ichizo Kobayashi, was a wealthy industrialist (the president of the Hankyu Railway company, in fact, which is why the Revue's named after the Hankyu Takurazuka line in Osaka and the actresses are all employees of Hankyu Railway) who created it as a training ground for housewives in-keeping with the Meiji 'good wife, wise mother' ideal. Class S had a major impact on Japanese attitudes to lesbians. It meant that same-sex relationships between girls were acceptable if they didn't go too far, and if they were stepping stones on the path to a proper, heterosexual marriage. Adult lesbians were shunned and treated as immature/in need of a good hard dicking. This was reflected in Japanese lesbian fiction, yuri, where two options were traditionally presented to the main characters. One is 'Story A', a light, fluffy romance juuust this side of a close friendship where two girls like each other, discover they like each other... and then the final curtain slams down like a guillotine before the relationship can develop beyond holding hands, gazing soulfully into each other's eyes, and maybe a kiss if they're lucky. More sexual lesbian relationships tend to end in death or some other permanent, tragic separation, as the girls receive karmic retribution for violating society's norms, in much the same way as Hays Code-era crime movies showed gangsters being cool and awesome for almost their whole runtime before they were abruptly punished for their crimes in the last few minutes. Now let's look at how this applies to Yuri Bear Storm. There's a clear contrast between the bears and the humans set up here. Kureha and Sumika's relationship is extremely chaste and desexualised, but still faces systemic opposition. The girls are dwarfed by enormous buildings and literally walled into their society. Their world is bright and colourful, but very regular and ordered, with a miasma of paranoia and oppression. The bears, on the other hand, are free and enthusiastically, aggressively sexual - they're responsible for 90% minimum of the fanservice and sexual imagery, and eating is an obvious metaphor for sex (rape, in fact). As opposed to the tame, Story A yuri of the human world, they're the predatory 'psycho lesbian' villain stereotype of innumerable Japanese and Western shows. They present a threat that can only be fought by conformity with the social order that controls Kureha and Sumika's lives. Even the bears aren't free, though - they're subordinate to the Court of Severance, the only men in the cast so far, who decide what is and is not acceptably sexy, beautiful, and cool yuri. Remember what I said about the organisation and purpose of the Takarazuka Revue? In fact, if Ikuhara's being self-aware, this might even be commentary on the fact that he, a guy, is directing a yuri show. "Will you be invisible? Or will you eat humans?" is a really telling line - the arbiters of yuri are asking the bears to choose between what is socially acceptable (tame, desexualised same-sex relationships) and unleashing their lust in an aggressive, blatant, and destructive manner. I wouldn't be surprised if the goal here is to preach a middle ground that goes against what either the Court of Severance or the human world will allow - a stable, loving, and openly sexual lesbian relationship. Certainly, that's what the opening seems to champion, with Ginko, Kureha, and Lulu ending it leaning against each other in a happy, naked heap after expressing their mutual affection with a string of kisses. Basically, the evidence so far seems to suggest that Ikuhara's purpose here is to say 'yo, Japan, your attitude to lesbians is kind of hosed up and restrictive - let the girls have their fun, why don't you?'
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Jan 9, 2015 23:47
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The bear court represents the schoolgirl's psyche and her moral deliberation on the case. The pro-human guy is the super-ego, spoiling the fun and going for moral superiority and the demands of human society. The pro-bear guy is the id, speaking in favor of giving in to instinct and natural urges. Survival. Bears have to eat. Finally, the sexy ego decides. Yuri approved. But how will this inner deliberation clash with the shunned demands of the outside world?
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Jan 9, 2015 23:50
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Darth Walrus posted:Right, you asked for this, and thanks to submitting my assignment yesterday, I've got a clear schedule. Let's do this. Hrm, I don't agree.
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Jan 9, 2015 23:51
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Ibram Gaunt posted:Hrm, I don't agree. Hey, like you said, deciphering this poo poo is fun, and Ikuhara's one of those directors who relies on themes and symbolism enough in his stories that you're likely to find something interesting if you dig for it. Honestly, I thought the case was reasonably solid here for an analysis based off a single episode - it certainly fits with the interests that the director has loudly and repeatedly expressed his enthusiasm for.
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Jan 10, 2015 00:21
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What the gently caress am I watching...?
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Jan 10, 2015 00:25
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yeah but on the other hand ikuhara has quotes like quote:if I have a guy in the show, the love relationship gets to have a bigger role than the show
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Jan 10, 2015 00:26
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Ranzear posted:What the gently caress am I watching...? Welcome, friend!  Endorph posted:yeah but on the other hand ikuhara has quotes like He's like one of those guys who always plays a girl in an MMO and when anyone asks why he goes 'Oh, I'd just rather be staring at a girls butt' but it's really because he wants to be a girl.
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Jan 10, 2015 05:21
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Ibram Gaunt posted:Hrm, I don't agree. He did literally say his show was out to revitalize the yuri genre so
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Jan 10, 2015 12:24
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Darth Walrus posted:The bears, on the other hand, are free and enthusiastically, aggressively sexual - they're responsible for 90% minimum of the fanservice and sexual imagery, and eating is an obvious metaphor for sex (rape, in fact). Sounds great. Not at all hosed up.
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Jan 10, 2015 14:45
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I would try and argue that reading but I'm suddenly worried I'm turning into the new WickedHate.
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Jan 10, 2015 15:01
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Space Flower posted:He did literally say his show was out to revitalize the yuri genre so Yeah. Wouldn't be too much of a stretch to think that in doing so he's also going for some commentary on it. It was pretty interesting to see some of the history on that subject, might shine a light on some stuff in future episodes.
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Jan 10, 2015 15:04
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Namtab posted:Sounds great. Not at all hosed up. I talk about that in the very next sentence. They represent the 'psycho lesbian' stereotype, which is indeed hosed up and pretty much the only way overt lesbian sexuality is allowed to be expressed, as something evil and destructive (but totes sexy, you guys). Think the busty nurse who tries to murder the Major in Ghost in the Shell: Stand Alone Complex, or Nina Einstein the racist table-fucker in Code Geass. In traditional yuri, you either get to be in a chaste, sexless relationship almost indistinguishable from close friendship, or you're an oversexed, immature, predatory freak. If you're lucky, you might get the 'sexy rapist' treatment of a seme (top) in yaoi, but things are probably still going to end horribly for you - the only difference is that it'll be treated as a tragedy rather than something to celebrate (think Chikane from Kannazuki no Miko, which is a pretty iconic yuri work even if it's kind of poo poo). I would not be at all surprised if a theme in the story is of Kureha and the bears finding a healthy, affectionate way to express their sexuality even as the authorities of both sides try to deny it. Darth Walrus fucked around with this message at 15:37 on Jan 10, 2015 |
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Jan 10, 2015 15:23
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I know you did and I'm not having a pop at you. This is an anime where at one point two girls rape a third. This may be symbolism or social commentary or what have you but at the same time it's a rape. What's worse is that it's a rape that's presented in a very fanservicy way and that is not good. People rightly complained in the kill la kill thread about ragyo molesting satsuki, people talked about whatever it was that happened in the first episode of cross ange (anal fisting to humiliate the female lead?). Forgive me for thinking that this isn't actually any better. I'm going to give it the benefit of the doubt and hope that it was just first episode otaku-bait, but bearing in mind there seems to be a (male) yuri court that seems to be allowed to determine whether the two bears can rape humans I think it might be a trend that continues and that this anim will continue to sexualise rape.
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Jan 10, 2015 15:38
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Namtab posted:I know you did and I'm not having a pop at you. Yeah, I think the endgame is definitely important here. A lot of people were giving KLK's rapey stuff a pass because they hoped it would lead up to something thematic and important, and then haha nope it was just there for cheap shock value and could have been comfortably edited out. Ikuhara, meanwhile, is getting goodwill because talking about teenage sexuality, including its most shocking and unpleasant aspects, is kind of his thing, and he usually does a decent, insightful job of it when all's said and done. This is a bit more overtly fanservicey than his norm, but, again, there's moderate odds that he's going somewhere with it. It could well end up as creepy-for-the-wrong-reasons fetishistic poo poo, but there's reason to want to wait and see.
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Jan 10, 2015 15:46
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Darth Walrus posted:I talk about that in the very next sentence. They represent the 'psycho lesbian' stereotype, which is indeed hosed up and pretty much the only way overt lesbian sexuality is allowed to be expressed, as something evil and destructive (but totes sexy, you guys). Think the busty nurse who tries to murder the Major in Ghost in the Shell: Stand Alone Complex, or Nina Einstein the racist table-fucker in Code Geass. In traditional yuri, you either get to be in a chaste, sexless relationship almost indistinguishable from close friendship, or you're an oversexed, immature, predatory freak. If you're lucky, you might get the 'sexy rapist' treatment of a seme (top) in yaoi, but things are probably still going to end horribly for you - the only difference is that it'll be treated as a tragedy rather than something to celebrate (think Chikane from Kannazuki no Miko, which is a pretty iconic yuri work even if it's kind of poo poo). I would not be at all surprised if a theme in the story is of Kureha and the bears finding a healthy, affectionate way to express their sexuality even as the authorities of both sides try to deny it. Namtab posted:I know you did and I'm not having a pop at you. I'd qualify it as quality storytelling albeit with disgustingly tasteless directing. There are better ways that bit could have been handled, but Ikuhara went for the most blatantly hosed up.
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Jan 10, 2015 16:15
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Namtab posted:I know you did and I'm not having a pop at you. This is an anime where two girls do something that is probably symbolic rape to another girl, as of this point. There's actually a difference between that and literal on-screen molestation. Srice posted:Yeah. Wouldn't be too much of a stretch to think that in doing so he's also going for some commentary on it. Ikuhara worked on the anime of Aoi Hana/Sweet Blue Flowers, which was created by the same woman who wrote Wandering Son. He has some interesting history with the genre. That being said, having the two leads start out in a sexual relationship already breaks the associated norms of the genre (although the manga is more conventional in this regard).
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Jan 10, 2015 16:45
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Effectronica posted:This is an anime where two girls do something that is probably symbolic rape to another girl, as of this point. There's actually a difference between that and literal on-screen molestation. The three girls are all naked, two of them are licking the pubic area of the third girl presumably against her wishes. Please tell me what more this anim needs to do to have the rape not be "symbolic"
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Jan 10, 2015 16:55
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Namtab posted:The three girls are all naked, two of them are licking the pubic area of the third girl presumably against her wishes. No, they're not. They're licking a magical flower that has grown from there, and which is dripping actual honey, not vaginal mucosa. If you think that's what women's genitals look like, uh, well, good luck having sex. I mean, Utena is not actually performing a sexual act on Anthy when she pulls out the Sword of Dios, either, even though there's blatant sexual imagery.
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Jan 10, 2015 17:00
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Effectronica posted:No, they're not. They're licking a magical flower that has grown from there, and which is dripping actual honey, not vaginal mucosa. If you think that's what women's genitals look like, uh, well, good luck having sex. Oh I see. Totes legit, def. not creepy or hosed up. E: How foolish I was to not realise that they were licking her magical flower instead of her vagina. That def isn't at all a metaphor for them licking her vagina. Namtab fucked around with this message at 17:11 on Jan 10, 2015 |
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Jan 10, 2015 17:08
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Namtab posted:Oh I see. Totes legit, def. not creepy or hosed up. That's not what I said. I know you're morally outraged that the guy who wrote a show where pedophilic incest is a critical plot point included hosed-up sexual imagery in his show, but do you have to show it through selective literacy?
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Jan 10, 2015 17:10
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Namtab posted:Oh I see. Totes legit, def. not creepy or hosed up. Do you get upset over any symbolism that is even vaguely sexual or uncomfortable? If so, you would probably HATE Ikuhara's other works.
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Jan 10, 2015 17:20
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I get uncomfortable when rape is presented as sexy, yes. Call it a character flaw of mine, I just can't help it.
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Jan 10, 2015 17:23
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Namtab posted:E: How foolish I was to not realise that they were licking her magical flower instead of her vagina. That def isn't at all a metaphor for them licking her vagina. Oh, maybe you actually are really, incredibly stupid. In any case, I'm really suspicious of anything that relies too heavily on assuming YKA is primarily an ouroborotic commentary on the yuri genre. Utena was a commentary on magical girl shows and an outre example of the same, but it also had its own things going on besides being pure commentary.
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Jan 10, 2015 17:24
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I mean, it's usually okay to assume the worst of anime, but if anybody could make this go somewhere it's Ikuhara. Compare that to Kill la Kill, headed by a man whose love for flat-out fanservice is well known (and I don't know why we expected better of him). I'm taking a wait-and-see approach here, there's still time to bail and pretend I always hated it if it goes sour.
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Jan 10, 2015 18:00
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Namtab posted:I get uncomfortable when rape is presented as sexy, yes.
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Jan 10, 2015 18:06
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tonberrytoby posted:I get uncomfortable when someone says that all implications to homosexual sex is always rape and porn and wrong. Um, uh, please don't post about the episode without watching it, ha-ha.
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Jan 10, 2015 18:17
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Effectronica posted:Um, uh, please don't post about the episode without watching it, ha-ha.
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Jan 10, 2015 18:23
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in art bad things can happen and even be portrayed in a positive light and it's okay because its still episode 1 and that might kinda be the point
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Jan 10, 2015 18:25
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Effectronica posted:In any case, I'm really suspicious of anything that relies too heavily on assuming YKA is primarily an ouroborotic commentary on the yuri genre. Utena was a commentary on magical girl shows and an outre example of the same, but it also had its own things going on besides being pure commentary. That's reasonable, but they're making it incredibly obvious how self-aware and self-referential this show is. I mean, the first episode literally starts with a banner saying 'YURI', every character has 'yuri' somewhere in the name, there's omnipresent lily imagery... they're really rubbing your face in the fact that 'HEY, GUYS, THIS IS A YURI SHOW', and when somebody makes a theme that obvious, it's reasonable to assume it'll have something to say about it. On an interpretation of the lily-licking scene that isn't just the obvious 'Ikuhara has a thing for underaged lesbians, and it is weird', it may be commentary on rape fantasy versus rape reality. It's treated as some sort of dream/magical vision - Kureha appears to be asleep during it, and literally wakes up from it afterwards. Now compare how eroticised it is with the scene where we (and Yurizono) see what bears eating someone really looks like at the end of the episode - it's shot for pure horror, with hideous sound-effects and nothing fanservicey about it at all. If it does turn out to be thematically-relevant, it might be commentary on Japanese romance's habit (which yuri is not immune from) of eroticising something ghastly and hosed-up. This might be underlined in later episodes by Ginko and Lulu's first attempt to eat Sumika for real being played as scary and not sexy in the slightest, reinforcing her hatred of bears and building up the show's central conflict. If a healthy romance does develop out of this, it'd probably be Sumika initiating it, because the bears can't do it without bringing their established rapey baggage along. It's possible that everything will go straight to hell and we'll get a more regular shoujo-romance rape-is-love message, but Ikuhara's generally pretty good at avoiding that.
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Jan 10, 2015 18:40
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Darth Walrus posted:That's reasonable, but they're making it incredibly obvious how self-aware and self-referential this show is. I mean, the first episode literally starts with a banner saying 'YURI', every character has 'yuri' somewhere in the name, there's omnipresent lily imagery... they're really rubbing your face in the fact that 'HEY, GUYS, THIS IS A YURI SHOW', and when somebody makes a theme that obvious, it's reasonable to assume it'll have something to say about it. Sure, and Utena has things to say about the magical girl genre as well. But I'm wary about assigning everything a sexual meaning given that it's possible to read the title as "Lesbian (version of) Bear Storm", with Bear Storm being the name of a historical novel about a rampage where a grizzly killed and ate seven people in Hokkaido and one of the survivors spent the rest of his live killing bears in revenge. The eating may be eating, and not actually sexual.
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Jan 10, 2015 18:47
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I'm going to go into future episodes of this anime assuming that it is Literally Attack on Titan, because that's the impression I got from the first episode.
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Jan 10, 2015 18:54
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Yikes.
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Jan 10, 2015 20:01
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Effectronica posted:Sure, and Utena has things to say about the magical girl genre as well. But I'm wary about assigning everything a sexual meaning given that it's possible to read the title as "Lesbian (version of) Bear Storm", with Bear Storm being the name of a historical novel about a rampage where a grizzly killed and ate seven people in Hokkaido and one of the survivors spent the rest of his live killing bears in revenge. The eating may be eating, and not actually sexual. Yes, because Ikuhara is totally literal in every aspect of Utena and Penguindrum,. You have to be pretty drat dense or actively trying not to see that scene as overt, in-your-face, "DO YOU GET WHAT I'M TRYING TO SAY HERE?" sexual imagery about rape.
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Jan 10, 2015 20:40
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ViggyNash posted:Yes, because Ikuhara is totally literal in every aspect of Utena and Penguindrum,. Plus, well, lesbians eating each other is hardly obscure, subtle symbolism.
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Jan 10, 2015 20:49
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ViggyNash posted:Yes, because Ikuhara is totally literal in every aspect of Utena and Penguindrum,. Okay, yes, let's play this out. From the first episode, the bears infiltrated past the "Wall of Extinction" because... they're horny? They need to rape to live? It's something that's obviously sexualized, but when you look at it from that perspective, it suddenly becomes incoherent as anything other than some truly disturbing fetish pornography with a bunch of nonsense attached.
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Jan 10, 2015 20:56
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