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Paul MaudDib posted:Ethnic being "the Algerians who were colonized by the French" of course. Of the 6.5 million Muslims in France - 5 million are Algerian. Of course that unresolved tension shapes the conflict. The pieds-noirs have been gone for 50 years, there's been quite a lot of reflection even if possibly not enough and ultimately they were told to gently caress themselves hard enough they tried a fascist coup in the 50s. Of that generous five million algerians, over a quarter are berbers who fled a different form of chauvinism, at least if I am to work by your reductionist line of thought. I'm not even sure whether you're blaming the Salafis on french inaction for the first two years of the civil war (they've actually been blamed for claims that the government supported a military coup) or buying the Salafi propaganda line about the FLN being somehow too pro-French (hook, line and apparently sinker, might I say). You're still treating a relatively minor far left newspaper that also criticized that as if it was some voice of french imperialism, ffs. Agnosticnixie fucked around with this message at 09:08 on Jan 11, 2015 |
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Jan 11, 2015 09:04
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Tezzor posted:
now could you please explain the context in which it was made and how it is relevant to the message so i can form a considered opinion on it? because right now it looks like its main message is something something subhuman blacks hippies but it is still possible for it to reference something else in a way that makes it not horrible? Mandy Thompson posted:Neither Tezzor nor Al Jazeera said that the victims deserved it. Your putting words in her mouth. lurker1981 posted:So the point Charlie Hebdo was trying to make is that we all have the right to make people so angry that they not only want to kill us, but will kill us.  Mandy Thompson posted:Is broad disdain for religion an admirable quality? How about yes? Nothing is holy. Tezzor posted:So, in summary, the difference is that anti-Muslim mockery exists in a different context and is materially different in targets, spirit, audience, speakers, goals, and consequences. I am gay. tezzor we are still waiting for your response to these cartoons   Tezzor posted:I have no substantiation of this. And how do we not know that in fact he was merely satirizing those who think that way?? how about he called for it outside of a satirical context, after being asked whether he literally thinks all jews can go die in a fire, in a serious business newspaper, etc.?
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Jan 11, 2015 09:32
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I CANNOT EJACULATE WITHOUT SEEING NATIVE AMERICANS BRUTALISED!
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Absurd Alhazred posted:So, R. Crumb, currently living in France, was shocked by the news of this atrocity, to which he will respond by publishing a cartoon in Liberation depicting him holding Muhammad's rear end. He also has one he's co-drawn with his wife depicting them worrying about retaliation. I guess they're asking for it, too. These are the weirdest things, when other people publicizes offensive stuff as "support", as if anything good is going to come out of it.
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Jan 11, 2015 09:33
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Svartvit posted:These are the weirdest things, when other people publicizes offensive stuff as "support", as if anything good is going to come out of it. These are the best things, to reassure ourselves and show to the world that the attackers have not succeeded in intimidating anyone (except terminally retarded goons and thin-skinned idiots with no awareness of their surroundings). You do not have a right not to be offended and the harder you rage, the more you deserve being offended.
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Jan 11, 2015 09:37
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blowfish posted:These are the best things, to reassure ourselves and show to the world that the attackers have not succeeded in intimidating anyone (except terminally retarded goons and thin-skinned idiots with no awareness of their surroundings). I still think it's hilarious that Hamas and Hassan loving Nassrallah are making more sense than these dupes. Maybe they need an enlightened Westerner to set their priorities straight.
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Jan 11, 2015 09:47
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Absurd Alhazred posted:I must have missed it. Please link again. However, if it's the NYPD study, then it has already been demonstrated to you profusely that it does not say what you think it says; That's actually not what was demonstrated. Quite the opposite, in fact: WoodrowSkillson was pointing to a distinct phase in the radicalization process in which perceived or real discrimination does not play a role. However, as what I quoted in that post demonstrates, the fact that it is not a factor in that particular phase does not obviate the fact that it is a factor in other phases. A 2011 study from Penn State further underlines the bolstering effect that discrimination against minority groups has on terrorist recruitment efforts. From the abstract: quote:Using data from the Minorities at Risk project, I determine that countries featuring minority group economic discrimination are significantly more likely to experience domestic terrorist attacks, whereas countries lacking minority groups or whose minorities do not face discrimination are significantly less likely to experience terrorism. I also find minority economic discrimination to be a strong and substantive predictor of domestic terrorism vis-a`-vis the general level of economic development. I conclude with a discussion of the implications of the findings for scholarship on terrorism and for counter-terrorism policy From its conclusion: quote:The first is that discrimination ‘matters’. The empirical results show that countries that permit their minority communities to be afflicted by economic discrimination make themselves more vulnerable to domestic terrorism in a substantive way. The second main finding is that while aggregate poverty, or rather affluence, within society does affect the amount of domestic terrorism a country suffers, the overall economic status of a country has a smaller effect on terrorism than does the economic status of a country’s minority groups So that's pretty definitive. By the way, for the record, this issue is hardly my hobby-horse. I've brought it up as a factor - one among several - in terrorist recruitment. Not the only factor. The only reason I keep talking about it is because folks like you are virulently resistant to even discussing it as a factor. So let's leave out that canard next time, please.
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Jan 11, 2015 09:47
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Majorian posted:By the way, for the record, this issue is hardly my hobby-horse. I've brought it up as a factor - one among several - in terrorist recruitment. Not the only factor. The only reason I keep talking about it is because folks like you are virulently resistant to even discussing it as a factor. So let's leave out that canard next time, please. I'm actually a big fan of ducks and the media, so I think the canard stays.
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Jan 11, 2015 09:50
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Absurd Alhazred posted:I still think it's hilarious that Hamas and Hassan loving Nassrallah are making more sense than these dupes. Maybe they need an enlightened Westerner to set their priorities straight. At some point they will look around themselves and ask: "Why is everyone left on my side such a loving rear end in a top hat  "Nah just kidding that would require self-awareness and reflection.
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Jan 11, 2015 09:56
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Absurd Alhazred posted:I'm actually a big fan of ducks and the media, so I think the canard stays. All right, fair enough, but you really should read the selections I quoted and let me know how that affects your point of view. blowfish posted:At some point they will look around themselves and ask: Boy oh boy, there isn't an ironicat big enough.
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Jan 11, 2015 09:57
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Majorian posted:Boy oh boy, there isn't an ironicat big enough. 
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Jan 11, 2015 09:59
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Majorian posted:All right, fair enough, but you really should read the selections I quoted and let me know how that affects your point of view. Seems like I misjudged you, and was a mean, ornery rear end in the process, and I apologize. I'll give them a more serious read tomorrow.
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Jan 11, 2015 09:59
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Paul MaudDib posted:Yeah, but again, French society isn't a place where you can publish whatever you want. Ethnically inflammatory material like hate speech and holocaust denial is prohibited in France. There isn't an absolute "RIGHT" to free speech ala the US. Even the US has many restrictions on speech so to call it absolute is pretty silly anyways.
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Jan 11, 2015 10:01
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from reading up on this stuff, this is the jist i've gotten from it charlie hebdo didn't deserve to be attacked and everything about 17 people being murdered is really terrible. the i am charlie response is more concerning not because it's defending freedom of speech but more the defense of potentially offensive portrayal of muslims in western society which results in further marginalization of minorities in these countries. charlie hebdo was designed to be outrageous like the onion is and should never have been attacked for that, though at the same time perhaps satire in general can be more critical and smarter than muhammad portrayals and arabs with beards in traditional dress as a way of criticizing the worse aspects of islam. unless the message of charlie hebdo is lost in translation to english and it's actually deliberately distinguishing between fundamentalist islam and regular islam as the satire they used and this was just an attack on them in response to foreign affair poo poo because fundamentalist islam generalizes towards the west in the same way the west can generalize towards islam please feel free to school me on the situation
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Jan 11, 2015 10:02
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Booourns posted:Even the US has many restrictions on speech so to call it absolute is pretty silly anyways.
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Jan 11, 2015 10:03
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ThePutty posted:from reading up on this stuff, this is the jist i've gotten from it because the outraged #JeNeSuisPasCharlieParceQueC'estRaciste~~~~ crowd is typically lacking any sort of context or understanding when developing their outrage, they overlook the fact that charlie hebdo is not actually saying "gently caress all muslims"
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Jan 11, 2015 10:06
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Absurd Alhazred posted:Seems like I misjudged you, and was a mean, ornery rear end in the process, and I apologize. I'll give them a more serious read tomorrow. That's okay, it happens. As Torka pointed out earlier, I sometimes fail to communicate myself as effectively as I'd like to. For another interesting read on the subject, here is a multi-agency white paper that acts as a terrific summation of the literature on the topic: quote:The empirical study of Victoroff and Adelman (1.5) found that perceived discrimination quote:In terms of the labor market, Muslim Americans believe that they are facing equal opportunity. Muslim Europeans know that this is not the case, as the unemployment rate for male Muslims is much higher than its host counterpart. Muslim Europeans strongly believe they are facing discrimination because they are Muslim. Welfare policy also distinguishes Europe from the United States, as Europe tolerates a higher unemployment rate. Many unemployed Muslim Europeans are on the welfare payroll. Some do not feel any sense of urgency to get a job and some spend their idle moments talking about jihad. Ironically, European states, through welfare payments, contribute to the funding of inexpensive terrorist operations. Probably the most devastating effect of the lack of meaningful employment is boredom from idleness. Here, the thrill of participating in clandestine operations may prove almost irresistible to some.
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Jan 11, 2015 10:08
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Absurd Alhazred posted:I mean, they would never dream of poking fun at something so tragic. This is not necessarily sycophantic, but it is fundamentally different than the humor CH displayed in response to the murder of at least hundreds of Muslims by the rightist, pro-western military coup, and how they were so stupid as to think their religion would save them. Let's analyze these jokes. From top left: Joke 1: Americans are showing uncommon solidarity in these trying times. Joke 2: The guy who said we deserved it is an rear end in a top hat, am I right? Joke 3: Middle America is showing sympathy and solidarity with NYC which is funny because normally they hate us. Joke 4: The attack on the Pentagon is humorously underpublicized. Joke 5: Did you ever notice that we all share ways of dealing with this terrible attack? Joke 6: America is ready to strike even though, funnily enough, we're not sure at whom yet. Joke 7: The attack on America is pretty similar to this action pop culture reference. Joke 8: The guys we hate are suffering eternally in contrast to their expectations lol Joke 9: American responds in a sincere but humorously white and impotent way to this disaster Generally speaking, the jokes were not poking fun at victims, just at the absurdity of how we have to deal with a tragedy. If there is an edge to them it is solely the edge of making any joke at all. If you wanted a really dark, taunting, sadistic and nihilistic response more akin to CH's response to mass murder, let me suggest the following joke themes. I am not married to these, let's spitball with the creative process. 1. Americans stupidly cry about comparatively insignificant loss of life. 2. Jihadists successful: Is Islam accurate? 3. Did the towers burn so strongly because the Americans in them were so fat? 4. Career warmongers in quasi-Satanic structure die in agony LOL 5. Five year old African dying of malaria expresses sympathy for rich westerners 6. Heaven Preparing for Thousands of Innocent Victims of American Vengeance 7. Dumb Jew bought a house on 9/10 8. Mohammed Atta is enjoying totally cool paradise 9. Guy jumping out of tower unaware that the fire department could have saved him Are these funny, acceptable jokes? Tezzor fucked around with this message at 10:23 on Jan 11, 2015 |
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Jan 11, 2015 10:13
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Tezzor posted:1. Americans stupidly cry about comparatively insignificant loss of life. I would laugh at most of them. Even better than tribute.avi in fact.
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Jan 11, 2015 10:24
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Tezzor posted:1. Americans stupidly cry about comparatively insignificant loss of life. Some of these are perfectly in line with the vast majority of Charlie's output that isn't aimed at fanatical imams and the overly pious.
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Jan 11, 2015 10:33
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The Response of Slavoj Zizek to the CH massacre - apologies if it has been posted already, but I think there are some relevant quotations for us:quote:We should, of course, unambiguously condemn the killings as an attack on the very substance our freedoms, and condemn them without any hidden caveats (in the style of "Charlie Hebdo was nonetheless provoking and humiliating the Muslims too much"). But such pathos of universal solidarity is not enough – we should think further. This is a really loving good article. Disinterested fucked around with this message at 11:01 on Jan 11, 2015 |
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Jan 11, 2015 10:56
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Disinterested posted:The Response of Slavoj Zizek to the CH massacre - apologies if it has been posted already, but I think there are some relevant quotations for us: Yeah that is thanks. The best I've read so far.
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Jan 11, 2015 11:11
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Great Moments In German Humor: TITANIC, le magazine satirique definitif, reagit aux attaques 9/11  11 years of 9/05: Everyone celebrate!  Germany's hope: Can he stop Schäuble (then-minister of the interior)?  TITANIC: glorification of terrorism writ large, again actually a cover from before 9/11  100 reasons to love America right now:  A chronicle of seventeen billion years of terror, part 7: 1989 - The attack on the Berlin wall, a symbol of piece, prosperity, and civilisation. Helmut Kohl's counter strike levels East Germany, causes refugee influx in Afghanistan Since these relatively tame covers did not quite get the intended reaction, TITANIC decided to once again cross the boundaries of Satire I AM A NEW YORKER: A "we stand with MURCA and against the menace of unwashed muslamic head diaper fetishists" stall with pictures of the burning WTC and generic I love Murca shirts and books like "The Great Terror" (about Stalin's purges), Godzilla, British sausages, a Cheerleader, and questionnaires with sometimes awesome responses: "Point out the sleeper agent" (with pictures of random German celebrities and politicians, random Arabian-German celebrities found via a google image search for "Mohammed", as well as Mohammed Atta) ...apparently, it's a random Talk show host "I don't have anything against Arabs, but..." ...I hate Eastern European welfare moochers! Those lazy bums need to get a job! "Which State do you think is most suspicious? a) Afghanistan b) Pakistan c) Poland d) Saxony-Anhalt e) USA" "Do you feel less safe after 9/11? a) The danger has always existed b) I don't travel or take planes anyway c) The increased security measures might get me" c  "Would you still go to the top floor of a skyscraper?" ...No, definitely not. "Which of these songs should be banned? a) It's Raining Men b) Planes in my belly c) Bombing Down the House d) Kill, Kill All, Make All Dead" Choice moments: English-speaking tourists having their photos taken with signs like "Erwachet!" (The slogan of the German Jehovah's Witnesses paper) "Ich grüße Fotzenfritz" ("I greet oval office-fritz") "Mir doch egal" ("I don't give a drat") Germans having their photos taken holding: "Together we Stand, Together We Fall" "Live Goes On" "Bored In The USA" "Ich mache alles mit" ("I go along with everything") "H(a)ut ab, Taliban!" ("gently caress off, Taliban!/Congratulations, Taliban!") Tezzor's German clone: "Wer sind Sie? Was? TITANIC? Ich will eine Visitenkarte! Ich will wissen, wohin mein Anwalt schreiben soll! Leute verarschen, die nichts dafür können! Ich kann dich auch mal ein bißchen verarschen! Einen Scheißjob habt ihr! Ich will den Film haben! Rück die Kamera raus! Ich will eure Namen! Ihr habt in meine persönliche Freiheit eingegriffen! Daher kommt der Haß!" "Who are you? What? TITANIC? I want your business card! I want to know where I will have my lawyer complain! Taking the piss out of people who don't know better! I'm gonna take the piss out of you! You have a poo poo job! I want the film from your camera! Gimme that camera! I want your names! You restricted my personal freedom! That's where the hate comes from!" suck my woke dick fucked around with this message at 11:43 on Jan 11, 2015 |
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Jan 11, 2015 11:39
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Tezzor posted:
None of them are funny, probably because you are incapable of humour, but they aren't very offensive unless you're some sort of idiot fanatic. oh wait
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Jan 11, 2015 11:45
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blowfish posted:Tezzor's German clone: Totally emptyquoting myself.
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Jan 11, 2015 11:47
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pointsofdata posted:None of them are funny, probably because you are incapable of humour, but they aren't very offensive unless you're some sort of idiot fanatic. Nah 3, 5, 6, and 9 are legit funny, that's some pretty good output for a beginner especially keeping in mind that the rest also work. Tezzor should apply for one of the newly-vacated positions at Charlie Hebdo :iamafag: suck my woke dick fucked around with this message at 11:55 on Jan 11, 2015 |
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Jan 11, 2015 11:52
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Disinterested posted:The Response of Slavoj Zizek to the CH massacre - apologies if it has been posted already, but I think there are some relevant quotations for us: Hahaha, Zizek of all people writes the best response to this. Also the newspaper Hamburger Morgenpost in Germany was burned down overnight. They had reprinted the Charlie Hebdo cartoons. I suppose they were asking for it too? Luckily no one was hurt and two suspects have been apprehended.
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Jan 11, 2015 11:53
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A Pale Horse posted:Hahaha, Zizek of all people writes the best response to this. Not burnt down properly, the fire was out pretty quick.
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Jan 11, 2015 11:56
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Absurd Alhazred posted:So, R. Crumb, currently living in France, was shocked by the news of this atrocity, to which he will respond by publishing a cartoon in Liberation depicting him holding Muhammad's rear end. He also has one he's co-drawn with his wife depicting them worrying about retaliation. I guess they're asking for it, too. Now I'm not saying that we should immediate begin soliciting bids to build statues of his killer if some persecuted and marginalized person of color kills R. Crumb, but let's be honest, isn't he basically asking for it for being a super-evil racist(not saying he deserves it for basically being a Nazi, but still....)?  http://www.heretical.com/miscella/rcnoa.html Goatstein made an excellent point: satire and ironic appreciation are merely forms of white privilege. Who's to say whether the above R. Crumb cartoon is satirical or not? And isn't it just an act of neurotypical privilege to tell him "Of course it's satire you loving moron"? Ergo satirical criticisms of racism are just as bad as racism itself.
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Jan 11, 2015 11:56
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The Insect Court posted:Now I'm not saying that we should immediate begin soliciting bids to build statues of his killer if some persecuted and marginalized person of color kills R. Crumb, but let's be honest, isn't he basically asking for it for being a super-evil racist(not saying he deserves it for basically being a Nazi, but still....)? Missing the point: ~*~white privilege~*~ being a problem kinda involves it making life worse for non-whites, while satire in this case reminds people that they should do the opposite  clearly black people can't do satire themselves so it is racist, and that is because black people are incapable of producing satire 
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Jan 11, 2015 12:02
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blowfish posted:Not burnt down properly, the fire was out pretty quick. Oh, okay. I just saw a blurb about it in Polish media, they didn't mention the extent of the damage.
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Jan 11, 2015 12:08
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Tezzor posted:
You should apply for a job at Charlie. No irony. e:f;b
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Jan 11, 2015 12:12
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After all this time, people still earnestly arguing that 'The killing of all those people was awful, but...'. That said, I have come to perhaps understand why there is this surprising but ill-thought-out defense of murderers though. They killed because they were offended, and there is clearly a faction of people out there who believe being offended translates, or should translate, into respect and justification regardless of origin. It shouldn't, it doesn't, get over it. Trolls are often fairly horrible things, but there are lessons that can be learned from them that everyone would be well served to. You get angry, you lose. Not them, you. Unless they've murdered your pets or burned down your house there is no rational amount of angry you can get over cartoons and things strangers on the internet said that begins to justify murder or even violence. Not to mention that anger physically makes you stupider. The Snark fucked around with this message at 12:17 on Jan 11, 2015 |
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Jan 11, 2015 12:14
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The Snark posted:After all this time, people still earnestly arguing that 'The killing of all those people was awful, but...'. For arguments sake, let's say that the offices of Hamburger Morgenpost were torched by a Neo-Nazi. How many defenses will we see?
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Jan 11, 2015 12:17
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Hob_Gadling posted:For arguments sake, let's say that the offices of Hamburger Morgenpost were torched by a Neo-Nazi. How many defenses will we see? I hate Nazis
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Jan 11, 2015 12:21
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Tafferling posted:I hate Nazis What about Illinois Nazis? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ukFAvYP3UU Under-performing satirical magazines should not be shut down because of threats or a bloody massacre. They should be shut down once it's obvious its no longer satire and no-one gives a gently caress when they go bust.
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Jan 11, 2015 12:32
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illinois nazis
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Jan 11, 2015 12:33
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The Insect Court posted:Goatstein made an excellent point: satire and ironic appreciation are merely forms of white privilege. Stop dehumanizing people who are not "white" you piece of poo poo.
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Jan 11, 2015 12:42
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Graic Gabtar posted:What about Illinois Nazis? That's stateist. Seriously though, I think they would come out with arguments about how satire about nazism is "punching up" vs "punching down" But what if the neonazi is a bloke that comes from a crummy family and has known nothing other than beatings and abuse since age three and sets fire to the NP out of a misguided feeling of self determination? WHAT THEN?
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Jan 11, 2015 12:45
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The Insect Court posted:Goatstein made an excellent point: satire and ironic appreciation are merely forms of white privilege. Who's to say whether the above R. Crumb cartoon is satirical or not? And isn't it just an act of neurotypical privilege to tell him "Of course it's satire you loving moron"? Ergo satirical criticisms of racism are just as bad as racism itself. dem blackies are too dum to recognize satire so ye gonna be protectin' dem poor wretched noble savages from humor 'n poo poo aint that right partner
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Jan 11, 2015 12:45
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The Insect Court posted:Goatstein made an excellent point said noone sane ever
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