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The Barbarian paths are pretty bad. I'd be tempted to make the Totem path all in. Pick an animal stance at the start of a battle, gain the benefits of the level 3 and 14 of that animal. Just give them all of the level 6 ones, because they're pretty loving dull. Not sure about the Frenzy side of things. Maybe dump the exhaustion, dump the whole rage requirement for the level 6 (just can't be frightened or charmed), tie the intimidate to prime stat (stat bonus targets as well), make the retaliation once per target per round. Turn them into an offensive combat monster
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Jan 11, 2015 23:13
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We started running Lost Mine of Phandelver with a brand new group. First time seeing the game in action and drat it's lethal. I have no idea how the players are supposed to survive some of these encounters.
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Jan 11, 2015 23:39
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Things like giving out advantage and inspiration help. So does utilizing abilities appropriately
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Jan 12, 2015 00:23
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I find that 5E actually isn't that lethal so much as it's very rare to get through a fight without at least one player making a death save or two. Being sufficiently free with inspiration that players are unafraid to use it when it counts definitely helps a lot too.
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Jan 12, 2015 00:26
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The way monster and encounter design in 5E works, enemies generally end up being a bag of hit points that take forever to kill but do almost nothing, or something that dies in one round of combat but also can drop a PC in one round of combat as well. It's going to always be one or the other pretty much.
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Jan 12, 2015 00:45
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I dropped a ranger on the first attack of the first round of the first combat because Goblins can do that if they crit. There was then a huge debate about whether or not the cleric should use one of his two healing spells for the day to get him back on his feet as I flipped through the booklet and thought "They have to fight how many later?". It was all a bit painful.
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Jan 12, 2015 01:01
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I would honestly play 5e and not worry about most of its problems if there was a way to ignore the healing mechanics and just have something akin to 4e healing surges everyone could track down.
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Jan 12, 2015 01:06
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kingcom posted:I would honestly play 5e and not worry about most of its problems if there was a way to ignore the healing mechanics and just have something akin to 4e healing surges everyone could track down. What are the healing mechanics in 5e?
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Jan 12, 2015 01:14
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Mordiceius posted:What are the healing mechanics in 5e? Cleric healing spells or roll hit dice hope you dont roll poo poo. Basically fiddly bullshit that nobody finds fun and it makes healing completely and utterly random so you might have a million healing today or none.
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Jan 12, 2015 01:15
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kingcom posted:Cleric healing spells or roll hit dice hope you dont roll poo poo. Basically fiddly bullshit that nobody finds fun and it makes healing completely and utterly random so you might have a million healing today or none. To this day, I still think that D&D 4e Gamma World has the best healing system. Full heal after every battle. Second wind as minor action that heals 50%. Other than that, gently caress off with your healing nonsense.
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Jan 12, 2015 01:22
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Mordiceius posted:What are the healing mechanics in 5e? Healing potions, cleric spells, a hit die or a wisdom (medicine) check. An extended rest also recovers all hitpoints. Fighters can also use a second wind. Hit die in 5e are a resource that can be spent after fights, equal to the hit point die each class gets. You have as many hit dice as you do levels, and can spend as many as you need, you then roll the appropriate dice and regain those hitpoints. goatface posted:I dropped a ranger on the first attack of the first round of the first combat because Goblins can do that if they crit. There was then a huge debate about whether or not the cleric should use one of his two healing spells for the day to get him back on his feet as I flipped through the booklet and thought "They have to fight how many later?". Yes, the cleric probably shouldn't have been too stingy with the spells! Also, the first encounter says that if the goblins wipe the party, they are merely knocked unconscious. Keep in mind the starter adventure was also kind of designed with the pregens in mind. The cragmaw hideout encounters as well don't have to all be run. Characters should also take a short rest between the ambush and cragmaw hideout! Mordiceius posted:To this day, I still think that D&D 4e Gamma World has the best healing system. Full heal after every battle. Second wind as minor action that heals 50%. Other than that, gently caress off with your healing nonsense. To be fair, this kind of nulls out the reason for healing in general, which is cool if that's what you want to do, and is your perogative as a DM. Quantumfate fucked around with this message at 01:37 on Jan 12, 2015 |
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Jan 12, 2015 01:35
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Quantumfate posted:To be fair, this kind of nulls out the reason for healing in general That's literally the entire point of it.
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Jan 12, 2015 01:45
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Quantumfate posted:Healing potions, cleric spells, a hit die or a wisdom (medicine) check. An extended rest also recovers all hitpoints. Fighters can also use a second wind. Hit die in 5e are a resource that can be spent after fights, equal to the hit point die each class gets. You have as many hit dice as you do levels, and can spend as many as you need, you then roll the appropriate dice and regain those hitpoints. See, that kind of stuff seems like it could be a main to micromanage. Quantumfate posted:To be fair, this kind of nulls out the reason for healing in general, which is cool if that's what you want to do, and is your perogative as a DM. IMHO, I honestly feel like managing healing resources is more of a chore than something that enhances gameplay. Even managing surges in 4e gets to be too much of a chore where after every combat, everyone has to spend 5 minutes figuring out whether they should be surging or using healing spells and what's going to be the most economical use. I've only hopped into this thread and have been following 5e for a few days, I think one of my biggest complaints about the system is that it seems to add complexity for complexity's sake. I've gotten to a stage in my DMing style where I feel that the game's mechanics should facilitate helping the players feel like badasses. Not to say that they should never face deadly threats, as they totally should. But from my experiences, micromanaging resources be them healing or something like inventory or whether or not they've brought enough food, does not make the game, only more exhausting to keep up with. If you're playing in a setting where food management is core to the setting (like Dark Sun), that's fair. But in my games, I houserule out having to worry about food or how many pounds they're carrying. Wow, this is turning out more ranty/soapboxy than I intended, but I feel like I'm the type of person that 3.5 grognards loving hate, because not only did I feel like 4e was a step in the right direction (for the most part), I felt like it didn't go far enough in the opposite direction of 3.5. EDIT: Roadie posted:That's literally the entire point of it. And it's one of the reasons Gamma World remains one of my favorite variations of 4e. The core of 4e is still there, but it pushed it further along in the direction of "shedding bullshit." Character creation is quick. Loot is quick. Characters are more frequently encouraged to be crazy badasses.
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Jan 12, 2015 01:46
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Quantumfate posted:Yes, the cleric probably shouldn't have been too stingy with the spells! Also, the first encounter says that if the goblins wipe the party, they are merely knocked unconscious. Keep in mind the starter adventure was also kind of designed with the pregens in mind. The cragmaw hideout encounters as well don't have to all be run. Characters should also take a short rest between the ambush and cragmaw hideout! How did the module convey this information to the players and DM? Elector_Nerdlingen fucked around with this message at 01:55 on Jan 12, 2015 |
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Jan 12, 2015 01:51
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Mordiceius posted:See, that kind of stuff seems like it could be a main to micromanage. Look, honestly. I Like 5e. This this thread is full of awful making GBS threads on the system and treating it like mara designed it. It's not so bad though. Healing is a resource to manage- but I'm unsure it's fair to call it micromanaging. 4e had tons to manage, do I spend this encounter power now? or later in the fight? I have how many dailies? which at-wills do I pick? When do I spend surges? And that's not my bashing 4e. I love 4e, adore it. I just think it can be a bit clumsy, and I don't quite like how it's sort of dependent on having a grid of some kind. I'll be damned if it's not fun- But so is 5e. What I've played with it so far is snappy, fast and simple. Wow is it simple for people to dive into. All I can say, is that in terms of resource management healing really isn't such a chore. You can always excise healing from D&D if you want, though if your players are spending five minutes after every fight trying to work out healing, probably best to just let them rest. I'll be honest, I'm not sure what complexity it adds just for complexity's sake. If you're managing food resources and downtime, that's all on the DM. Personally I kind of like the downtime options 5e has, I'm looking forward to one of my players trying to make a carouse check and getting blackout drunk, then winning an earning gambling.  The only edition I haven't really liked is third, my god that was utter poo poo.
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Jan 12, 2015 02:05
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AlphaDog posted:How did the module convey this information to the players and DM? The module book doesn't cover the spells thing, because that's in the starter rules with the other stuff about how to play D&D. The only real rules the module conveys is about hwo to DM, being a narrator, referee, making sure it's a shared story and players have their say equally so no one's left out, etc. There's also resources telling people what ability checks are, when they should have their players make them, and to hand out inspiration liberally for good roleplaying. In terms of not having to run all the cragmaw encounters? It says as much. The first encounter with the guards is probably going to be fought by players unless they think up a way around it, like luring the guards away or something, but the module pretty much assumes a fight. But the very next encounter is optional, players meet wolves chained to the wall, the players are told the wolves are chained. The DM is told the goblins ignore any wolf's cry of alarm because they're used to fighting wolves. As well, the first sentence of the second paragraph says that the fight can be avoided with a dc 15 wisdom check, just dc 10 if the players offer food. If you deal with the wolves, you can just move straight on to the boss by taking the fissure in the wolf room. And then you're done with cragmaw hideout. If your players press on, they can avoid the goblins guarding Sildar by negotiating, they can avoid the room sildar's in by not going there and taking care of the lone guard on the bridge. The book levels players up after that too, so it's not like it's not a good reward for efforts done.
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Jan 12, 2015 02:15
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5e does not give PCs nearly enough healing for a full afternoon of play, especially since it seems like module writers have reacted to faster combat by packing in tons of pointless filler fights. 4e healing surges represent anywhere between 150% and 300% of a character's maximum HP. They can usually be divided between two to four combat encounters between each extended rest, with tons of ways to spend them on the fly including leader heals, Second Wind, etc. 5e hit dice are only 25 to 100% of a character's HP, which has also been lowered. In most of the current modules they have to last through four to six combats, against monsters that are now hitting a lot harder relatively speaking, and there are only two ways to spend them: either waiting an hour, or hoping the cleric or bard doesn't feel like doing anything else with their spells today.
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Jan 12, 2015 02:26
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Quantumfate posted:The module book doesn't cover the spells thing, because that's in the starter rules with the other stuff about how to play D&D. The only real rules the module conveys is about hwo to DM, being a narrator, referee, making sure it's a shared story and players have their say equally so no one's left out, etc. There's also resources telling people what ability checks are, when they should have their players make them, and to hand out inspiration liberally for good roleplaying. So... the starter set contains no advice for players about how to manage healing? I mean, I see it has advice that you "may" want to take a rest after the goblin ambush, but not what sorts of things might mean that you would want to take a rest. The third Cragmaw room's description starts "Three wolves are confined here. They can't reach targets standing on the steps, but attack any creature other than a goblin that moves into the room. You can win the encounter via skill tests instead of combat, yes. That's not the same as the encounter not happening. As for the rest of your post there, how does the module convey that all you need to do here is kill the boss bugbear? If they do that, they'll miss the chance to save Sildar, who has useful information. The section at the end - "Awarding XP" says that defeating Klarg and his allies is a story milestone. How are the golbins "defeated" if you just bypass them? It does say that if you come up with a "nonviolent way to neutralise" a threat, then you get XP too, but how is "didn't even see them" neutralising them? The point of this post is that these are the first few encounters in the starter set, and your posts here seem to be based around "well of course if you already know how D&D's supposed to work it's all perfectly clear". Elector_Nerdlingen fucked around with this message at 02:33 on Jan 12, 2015 |
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Jan 12, 2015 02:30
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What would you say a full afternoon of play entails? Like how many combats should PCs be able to run through before taking a long rest? As well, pretty early on, like second level, clerics get Preserve Life, which is a nice extra healing boon! There's also Healing potions!
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Jan 12, 2015 02:35
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For a group of brand new players it's pretty hard. I find myself having to make boneheaded decisions for the mobs to give the players a little advantage. For example with the wolf's pack tactics - the rogue decided the fight would go faster if he just snuck in and stabbed the wolves a bit and they proceeded to tear him apart. Then the wolves broke free. I didn't use pack tactics after that as the group was hanging by a thread. Lots of tactics fudging in general just to keep my players alive. I'm not going to poo poo all over the system out of spite. We had a genuinely good time. Just a lot of the rules seem like they were meant to be less fun and more traditional.
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Jan 12, 2015 02:45
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Quantumfate posted:There's also Healing potions! People need to shut the gently caress up with this here excuse.
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Jan 12, 2015 02:47
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Oh yea, as soon as my players discover healing pots I predict them buying out every potion store's stock as soon as they get into town.
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Jan 12, 2015 02:50
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Sanzuo posted:Oh yea, as soon as my players discover healing pots I predict them buying out every potion store's stock as soon as they get into town. Nothing signifies "heroic adventure" like "bandolier full of sparkly medicine."
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Jan 12, 2015 02:52
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Ideally, an afternoon of play should not entail hoping that Team Monster doesn't randomly kill somebody with one or two good rolls and snowball from there. The real problem with lovely healing is that nothing interesting happens when PCs die, and it never has in any D&D edition. Instead you get to spend three hours rolling somebody new, and paging back and forth through spell lists that have now been organized to make choosing spells the biggest pain in the rear end possible. Unless of course you rolled a non-caster  Hopefully the dead guy didn't have any backstory or other related plot significance either, because that's just more effort down the toilet.
Hwurmp fucked around with this message at 03:05 on Jan 12, 2015 |
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Jan 12, 2015 02:53
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Quantumfate posted:There's also Healing potions! I did not select that option when making the campaign. What do I do now?
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Jan 12, 2015 02:55
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dwarf74 posted:Nothing signifies "heroic adventure" like "bandolier full of sparkly medicine." Is WotC ripping off an almost 20-years old video game now?
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Jan 12, 2015 03:07
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P.d0t posted:People need to shut the gently caress up with this here excuse. dwarf74 posted:Nothing signifies "heroic adventure" like "bandolier full of sparkly medicine." AlphaDog posted:I did not select that option when making the campaign. What do I do now? I don't know, it's your campaign, so whatever you want? Really Pants posted:Ideally, an afternoon of play should not entail hoping that Team Monster doesn't randomly kill somebody with one or two good rolls and snowball from there. honestly though, about how many fights? I'm genuinely curious I am also just so glad I've popped into this thread to see people talking about their experiences playing 5e instead of just making GBS threads on things  Though since sanzuo seems genuine: Sanzuo posted:For a group of brand new players it's pretty hard. I find myself having to make boneheaded decisions for the mobs to give the players a little advantage. For example with the wolf's pack tactics - the rogue decided the fight would go faster if he just snuck in and stabbed the wolves a bit and they proceeded to tear him apart. Then the wolves broke free. I didn't use pack tactics after that as the group was hanging by a thread. Lots of tactics fudging in general just to keep my players alive. I think inspiration and advantage are critical to hand out. The halfling gets lucky, so advantage and lucky can really push towards a success. Naturally stealthy is also a good way to duck out of group fights if things go poorly. the +7 stealth really is quite good against most of the early encounters' perceptions. Try encouraging your rogue to use his stealth more
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Jan 12, 2015 03:09
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Quantumfate posted:Try encouraging your rogue to use his stealth more Sanzuo posted:he just snuck in and stabbed the wolves a bit
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Jan 12, 2015 03:12
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Littlefinger posted:Exactly. You know what constantly chugging down potions reminds me of? Diablo. That was some heroic adventuring. It's good to know that the contingent of this thread that has nothing better to do than tear apart 5e is capable of posts just as bad as the folks intent on proving that it is perfect and can do no wrong.
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Jan 12, 2015 03:12
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Quantumfate posted:honestly though, about how many fights? I'm genuinely curious In my experience, at low levels (1-2) it's extremely swingy. I've run some combats with 3 players against kobolds and hobgoblins, and the combats range from no damage taken to near-TPK. You could easily run anywhere from 1-6 hard combats depending on the rolls.
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Jan 12, 2015 03:18
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VERY swingy. I agree. I even forgot to give the goblins advantage in the first round against the surprised players. That probably would have done the party in.
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Jan 12, 2015 03:22
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CaptainPsyko posted:It's good to know that the contingent of this thread that has nothing better to do than tear apart 5e is capable of posts just as bad as the folks intent on proving that it is perfect and can do no wrong. I guess I should specify, I don't think D&D in general is the best roleplaying system these days, even for a dungeon crawler. But 5e's not that shabby. Pretty fun too. I like how light and simple it is. Personal changes I'd like to see? Some more weapons dice for fighters, some sort of specialization system for them akin to 2e. I'd like to see more dice throws as resources worked into the game for classes. It's something I'm quite keen on personally. IT BEGINS posted:In my experience, at low levels (1-2) it's extremely swingy. I've run some combats with 3 players against kobolds and hobgoblins, and the combats range from no damage taken to near-TPK. You could easily run anywhere from 1-6 hard combats depending on the rolls. I have maybe 1-2 fights for the low levels of my upcoming campaign at a time, I think. Giving players downtime in between.I'm wondering if that's going to be too little. We have at least five players, so hopefully it won't be a tpk, and hopefully it won't be pushing the players too hard.
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Jan 12, 2015 03:28
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Quantumfate posted:It's not much of an excuse, or different than healing spells I think in terms in heroicness. The difference is that how many healing spells a cleric can use per day is well defined, and when and how to use them is up to the player. They also get them back at a reliable rate (after an extended rest) Whether you get healing potions (or the gold to buy them) is Up To The DM™, and either the "wealth by level" expectations need to take into account "expected potion expenditure" or else you fall behind in your other equipment (usually with more always-on effects) if you're burning gold on consumables.
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Jan 12, 2015 03:32
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Quantumfate posted:I like how light and simple it is. I don't think it's particularly light or simple, for players or DMs. This is not a game system I would ever use for a player new to TRPGs if I can help it. Your best bet if you want to run good low-level combats is to probably not roll monster damage and just do a point or two less than their listed average. You'll also want to redesign some monsters that will definitely kill your players - hobgoblins, for example, can hit for up to 11 normally and up to 23 if they have allies around. 11 will likely drop anyone but a heavy front-liner. 15+ will drop literally anyone, and may insta-kill certain classes at full health. Edit: I suspect this will turn into the same thing that 3.x did - healing belts and wands of lesser vigor for every party that wants to have an actual adventuring 'day'.
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Jan 12, 2015 03:33
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Is it really that different? A DM can always give out more gold and equipment if the players are running short because of healing potions. It's DM agency just as much to deny clerics their spells by denying them the opportunity to rest without interruption or even just ruling the spell isn't available for whatever reason.
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Jan 12, 2015 03:37
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Quantumfate posted:Is it really that different? A DM can always give out more gold and equipment if the players are running short because of healing potions. It's DM agency just as much to deny clerics their spells by denying them the opportunity to rest without interruption or even just ruling the spell isn't available for whatever reason. It is different. Players tend to have a lot more control of when they want to continue adventuring than what gear they can obtain when adventuring. I've been in more than a few campaigns where you expected gear at level 3 was a total of maybe 300 gold. Haven't been in any that didn't allow rests.
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Jan 12, 2015 03:41
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Interestingly it looks like the online Basic Rules has errata incorporated - I just noticed that 'you always regain at least one hit die on a long rest' is in the HTML version, but not the PHB or PDF basic rules. Wonder what else has changed?
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Jan 12, 2015 03:42
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Quantumfate posted:Is it really that different? A DM can always give out more gold and equipment if the players are running short because of healing potions. It's DM agency just as much to deny clerics their spells by denying them the opportunity to rest without interruption or even just ruling the spell isn't available for whatever reason. Like everything you've talked about in regard to this seems to be like bandaids trying to fix a system that is inherently broken. It might be a philosophical difference, but I don't think players should be dying at level 1, let alone in the first encounter. They're literally just learning how to play that class. If the solution is "give them more healing potions" or "give them extra healing items x, y, and z," then the system is broken. If, as the DM, you are using an encounter considered "balanced" by the system's rules and it is far easier for you to kill the PCs than it is to spare them, the system is broken. I don't want to make it seem like I'm constantly making GBS threads on 5e, but without discussion of what is broken, things will never be fixed.
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Jan 12, 2015 03:54
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AlphaDog posted:I did not select that option when making the campaign. What do I do now? House rule in a way that all the anti-gross will kneel down at your wisdom?
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Jan 12, 2015 03:56
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All these CR complaints and one shot kills your party feels like something that can be solved with DM fiat. I've never had a problem rolling 15 damage on a character with 10 hp and dropping them only to 2hp because it made sense.
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Jan 12, 2015 03:58
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