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I hate consumables being required for healing because how are new players supposed to know how much is appropriate to spend on potions? Super easy to bankrupt yourself on consumables and not have enough left for other gear you are going to need.
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Jan 12, 2015 06:35
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P.d0t posted:Rightly or wrongly, people want to bitch about the job said designers did, rather than fix the game and play it. In the case of AlphaDog, I can only assume it's because he's played/fixed every edition of D&D, ever, already. I never even played 3.0. Babylon Astronaut posted:I will maintain that it is impossible for someone to learn the game from the core books alone. This is what I've been trying to get at for the past few pages.
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Jan 12, 2015 06:39
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IT BEGINS posted:Seems pretty reasonable if you do max HP + full Con score at first level. It should definitely work around level 6 - it's way more than what you'd normally have, so it's something at least. And yet, this is pretty much what they did in 4e. 5e loves unfixing old problems from 3.5
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Jan 12, 2015 06:39
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Mordiceius posted:It just feels like very little in the system went through much testing.
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Jan 12, 2015 06:40
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Babylon Astronaut posted:Would you believe me if I told you that hundreds of people tested it for over a year leaving detailed feedback and criticism? Such as which spells felt the most DnD, or whether the cool sorcerer that regressed into draconic blood as it used up spell slots fit the setting or not.
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Jan 12, 2015 06:41
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The Bee posted:I guess my main worry is that it's an edition without a home even by DnD standards. Old timey play seems best suited to retroclones, bonkers customization for 3.5 as is, and tight, tactical combat 4E's niche. I just kinda look at 5E and wonder what's the point, and while its still easily capable of being fun I need more than that to buy a whole new edition.  I voiced this exact complaint about 6 months ago. I don't know what 5th edition does. What is it for? It's just D&D for D&D sake. I hate that about 5th edition. It viscerally upsets me. Fortunately, a lot people just want something that is D&D, and 5th edition is that. It's standout attribute is that it strongly possesses the quality of being like D&D.
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Jan 12, 2015 06:48
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e: I worked at a games shop, and can confirm nerds want to be parted with their money, which WotC obligesBabylon Astronaut posted:Would you believe me if I told you that hundreds of people tested it for over a year leaving detailed feedback and criticism? Yeah and it's depressing as gently caress
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Jan 12, 2015 06:50
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The Bee posted:the cool sorcerer that regressed into draconic blood as it used up spell slots I am still really mad about this. That version of the sorceror was my favorite version of the sorceror class in any system I've ever played. The fact that it got taken out is a goddamn travesty.
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Jan 12, 2015 06:51
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kingcom posted:I dont know if any of those solve the issues im having. Extra Hit Die would just make the healing stay random. Healing in combat is either a terrible/desperate move since it never heals enough to matter and killing something is just going to prevent damage. What exactly are you looking for when you mean controllable amount of healing across a day and long-term healing? You could always have a short rest restore con bonus times level. Or add a level bonus to hit die.
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Jan 12, 2015 06:52
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Quantumfate posted:What exactly are you looking for when you mean controllable amount of healing across a day and long-term healing? 4e-style healing surges or something that works like them. e: Even if you can only use it out of combat. Elector_Nerdlingen fucked around with this message at 07:04 on Jan 12, 2015 |
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Jan 12, 2015 06:56
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Quantumfate posted:What exactly are you looking for when you mean controllable amount of healing across a day and long-term healing? You could always have a short rest restore con bonus times level. Or add a level bonus to hit die. Then they can just infinitely short rest to heal (or can never use it because a 1 hour rest is a long time). Level bonus to hit die doesnt really add much, to it. The suggestion of having a fixed pool of HP that will allow you to restore your health that can be spent outside of combat seems like a much better alternative. Its non-random, it comes back essentially whenever the GM says it does and it works as a resource the players can track alongside how many spells they have left and other daily resources. Given melee characters often have to spend their HP to engage in the game I want a way they can reliably bring it back and keep going. I dont want it to be fiddly and drawn. I just want to have a consumable resource that is restored regularly but provides a limit on how much healing can be done per day. Is that clearer? AlphaDog posted:4e-style healing surges or something that works like them. This essentially. I want a fixed limit on healing that isnt random. I dont want infinite healing. I want healing to be a limited resource but one that players can control.
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Jan 12, 2015 06:58
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IT BEGINS posted:I am still really mad about this. That version of the sorceror was my favorite version of the sorceror class in any system I've ever played. The fact that it got taken out is a goddamn travesty. You and me both. Imagine the cool alternate class paths you could have based on bloodlines, too! There was so much potential!
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Jan 12, 2015 06:58
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The Bee posted:You and me both. Imagine the cool alternate class paths you could have based on bloodlines, too! There was so much potential! It's almost as if crowdsourcing ideas makes for bad games.
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Jan 12, 2015 07:02
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The Bee posted:the cool sorcerer that regressed into draconic blood as it used up spell slots I am 200% mad this didn't make it to the PHB, it was off the wall cool and actually made me want to play a sorcerer.
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Jan 12, 2015 07:02
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kingcom posted:Then they can just infinitely short rest to heal (or can never use it because a 1 hour rest is a long time). Level bonus to hit die doesnt really add much, to it. The suggestion of having a fixed pool of HP that will allow you to restore your health that can be spent outside of combat seems like a much better alternative. Its non-random, it comes back essentially whenever the GM says it does and it works as a resource the players can track alongside how many spells they have left and other daily resources. Given melee characters often have to spend their HP to engage in the game I want a way they can reliably bring it back and keep going. You could consider buffing healing effects to always restore 1/4 hp + max(whatever the effect normally restores), though that may be a bit much. Still, it sucks that as a cleric you often have to burn your low-level slots on healing spells and have them restore like 3 hp. With these three rules combined, you'd have a Level 1 Cleric with 14 Con and 16 Wis starting with 22 HP, have a pool of 22 reserve HP to use during rests, a Hit Dice heal of 13 HP, and two Cure Wounds which heal for 11 + 1/4 (5) HP. May be a bit much - should probably remove the hit dice heal since we have a reserve pool anyway, but otherwise it's pretty good. I'm always a fan of making players beefier - it's way easier for me to make encounters harder when my players are sturdy than it is for me to try to neuter encounters when my players get blown over by a stiff wind.
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Jan 12, 2015 07:03
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kingcom posted:Then they can just infinitely short rest to heal (or can never use it because a 1 hour rest is a long time). Level bonus to hit die doesnt really add much, to it. The suggestion of having a fixed pool of HP that will allow you to restore your health that can be spent outside of combat seems like a much better alternative. Its non-random, it comes back essentially whenever the GM says it does and it works as a resource the players can track alongside how many spells they have left and other daily resources. Given melee characters often have to spend their HP to engage in the game I want a way they can reliably bring it back and keep going.
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Jan 12, 2015 07:06
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Quantumfate posted:So you want something that's more resource manage-y than that, and don't like the random nature of hit dice? Couldn't you just have hit dice restore half your HP + con bonus then? I mean, hit dice as they are, are pretty much already healing surges. Except you don't have to spend them to be healed by powers.  Healing surges solve the problem of "unlimited healing" from 3.5 while simultaneously putting a higher floor on the amount of HP restored. If by "Hit Dice are basically healing surges" you mean "does nothing that Healing Surges do" then sure!
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Jan 12, 2015 07:10
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Quantumfate posted:I mean, hit dice as they are, are pretty much already healing surges. Except you don't have to spend them to be healed by powers. They're not really. They don't scale at all, and you don't get nearly enough of them. They also aren't the way healing is powered - generally, once your surges are gone there aren't as many ways to gain back HP. In 5e, you can always swallow more cure wounds.
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Jan 12, 2015 07:10
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To actually add something constructive, I think having "advantage" on all Hit Dice rolls might be a step in the right direction. Yes I know advantage normally only applies to d20s, but why not expand it? It could help with swinginess in other parts of the game, i think.
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Jan 12, 2015 07:13
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IT BEGINS posted:In 5e, you can always swallow more cure wounds. Wait wait wait. Why is it a problem that there are more ways to gain back HP?
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Jan 12, 2015 07:15
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Quantumfate posted:I mean, hit dice as they are, are pretty much already healing surges. Except you don't have to spend them to be healed by powers.
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Jan 12, 2015 07:15
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IT BEGINS posted:I am still really mad about this. That version of the sorceror was my favorite version of the sorceror class in any system I've ever played. The fact that it got taken out is a goddamn travesty. Is there an online version of that available anywhere? It certainly sounds cool as heck.
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Jan 12, 2015 07:17
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Quantumfate posted:Wait wait wait. Why is it a problem that there are more ways to gain back HP? Because healing surges are also a pacing mechanic, since they're a daily resource. so instead of the adventuring day hinging on "are we out of spells?" and thus making your wizard/cleric into spotlight hogs, the suggested number of encounters per day actually was pretty accurate and meaningful, and was largely based on access to surges as well as short rests.
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Jan 12, 2015 07:19
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Allstone posted:Literally the primary purpose of healing surges was to put a hard cap on healing, though the mistake you made is exceedingly common so don't feel too bad I thought the hard cap aspect of healing surges was always a way to force players to rest and to introduce a resource management mechanic on top of healing as a concept. I had thought moving away from a hard cap on healing was a good thing.
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Jan 12, 2015 07:22
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Quantumfate posted:I thought the hard cap aspect of healing surges was always a way to force players to rest and to introduce a resource management mechanic on top of healing as a concept. I had thought moving away from a hard cap on healing was a good thing. What? Why?
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Jan 12, 2015 07:25
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Quantumfate posted:I thought the hard cap aspect of healing surges was always a way to force players to rest and to introduce a resource management mechanic on top of healing as a concept. I had thought moving away from a hard cap on healing was a good thing. Healing surges scale better, are more consistent, and can't be slipped past with overly high wealth by level. Their closest analogue is spell slots, and those still have the problems of hinging on only a few characters and varying as levels increase. Its not that limited healing is bad. Its that 5E's way handles it with no sense of pacing or finesse, and relies on factors much less obvious to new players to be balanced.
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Jan 12, 2015 07:25
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Quantumfate posted:I thought the hard cap aspect of healing surges was always a way to force players to rest and to introduce a resource management mechanic on top of healing as a concept. I had thought moving away from a hard cap on healing was a good thing. Generally, no. What you had in 3.5 was players running around with half a dozen wands of lesser vigor and just topping themselves up after every battle. The only pacing mechanic was when the wizard ran out of spells. Having a soft cap (there are still ways to regain when you're out, but they are generally limited), having each surge restore a guaranteed-to-be-significant amount, and having a significant amount of total healing is altogether very good.
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Jan 12, 2015 07:26
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I guess it's a philosophy thing.
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Jan 12, 2015 07:27
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Quantumfate posted:I guess it's a philosophy thing. What do you mean? Why is unlimited healing a good thing?
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Jan 12, 2015 07:29
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Quantumfate posted:I thought the hard cap aspect of healing surges was always a way to force players to rest and to introduce a resource management mechanic on top of healing as a concept. I had thought moving away from a hard cap on healing was a good thing. No, it was an improvement over 3.x where healing was largely irrelevant. You either picked a template/race/prc that had fast healing/regeneration or chucked chump change at wands. Compare this to 4th ed where once your healer is out of healing, the in fight tension ramps up considerably. It also made healing feel like this clutch thing. For example, the last healer I played in 4e was a cleric and due to feat and magic item selections I had a lot of meta choices to make when I cast holy word beyond just, "that guy needs healing." Like, if I dealt radiant damage I would heal 2d6 additional hp. If I missed that turn with my attack then I had to gauge whether I should heal then or try and eke out that extra efficiency. Same for the feat that let people I healed make a saving throw and the feat that gives the target of my holy word a significant defense boost for the round. Which brings me to the real affront of healing in 5e. Forget this argument about infinite healing vs. resource management. The real god drat problem with 5e is that fuckface mike mearls made cure wounds and heal standard actions again. Thanks you insufferable rear end in a top hat. 
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Jan 12, 2015 07:33
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Failboattootoot posted:Which brings me to the real affront of healing in 5e. Forget this argument about infinite healing vs. resource management. The real god drat problem with 5e is that fuckface mike mearls made cure wounds and heal standard actions again. Thanks you insufferable rear end in a top hat. What we found is that lots of players said that some players (not themselves) like to play healbots.
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Jan 12, 2015 07:36
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Failboattootoot posted:Which brings me to the real affront of healing in 5e. Forget this argument about infinite healing vs. resource management. The real god drat problem with 5e is that fuckface mike mearls made cure wounds and heal standard actions again. Thanks you insufferable rear end in a top hat. Yeah, I played clerics and warlords. Being able to do a heal and something useful in your turn was really fun but obviously too much fun for 5e. Also my big problem I should point out is that nobody in the party wants to be a healbot or waste their fun abilities on heals. So I want it to be someone everyone can do as a resource and we can all just ignore that out of combat healing thing without the fights per day mechanic becoming meaningless. kingcom fucked around with this message at 07:38 on Jan 12, 2015 |
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Jan 12, 2015 07:36
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IT BEGINS posted:What do you mean? Why is unlimited healing a good thing? I mean, it's not quite unlimited is the thing. It's still a degree of resource management. But I know what you mean with it being theoretically unlimited. I don't see why taking away a player's ability to recover is a good thing. It just seems janky to me to me to set a hard limit like that.
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Jan 12, 2015 07:38
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Quantumfate posted:I mean, it's not quite unlimited is the thing. It's still a degree of resource management. But I know what you mean with it being theoretically unlimited. I don't see why taking away a player's ability to recover is a good thing. It just seems janky to me to me to set a hard limit like that. Problem is that means all fights have to be super dangerous and punishing to the players or they are completely meaningless since your going to just instant heal to full health regardless. This means you've taken away one of the only limits on spellcasters, multiple fights per day to use up their spells.
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Jan 12, 2015 07:40
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Quantumfate posted:I mean, it's not quite unlimited is the thing. It's still a degree of resource management. But I know what you mean with it being theoretically unlimited. I don't see why taking away a player's ability to recover is a good thing. It just seems janky to me to me to set a hard limit like that. Tension. The deal with healing surges was that you couldn't use them all at once, only a Second Wind and any time a leader ability allowed you to burn one. It allowed for tension within a fight without forcing you at low HP for the entire adventuring day. You had to gauge how much it was worth to spend between battles, which made for a simple amount of resource management without being overwhelming. It also provided a definite cap to the adventuring day, giving reason to go back to town and regroup if the going got too rough. Its the same philosophy behind having some powers replenish between encounters and others replenish between days.
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Jan 12, 2015 07:43
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Quantumfate posted:I mean, it's not quite unlimited is the thing. It's still a degree of resource management. But I know what you mean with it being theoretically unlimited. I don't see why taking away a player's ability to recover is a good thing. It just seems janky to me to me to set a hard limit like that. Again, it's not actually a hard limit, but it makes pacing the rest of the game much easier. It's also a heck of a lot more healing than is present in 5e. A level 1 paladin with 16 con can heal from 30-100% of his HP during his adventuring day. In 4e, the same paladin would heal 325% of his HP. Edit: Also, seconding a request for someone's copy of the playtest packet containing the morphing sorc. If you have it I will love you forever (though probably just until Wendesday). IT BEGINS fucked around with this message at 07:53 on Jan 12, 2015 |
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Jan 12, 2015 07:45
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Using Paladins is kind of disingenuous because they had the most surges of any class in 4E. They were designed that way because Lay on Hands, which could be used on other people, used one of your surges. So it was kind of assumed you might not be spending all of those surges on yourself. That being said, I agree with the general argument. I just think it'd be a more fair point to use a different class.
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Jan 12, 2015 07:54
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I recall that without a leader, consumables or magic items, for the most part you could really only heal out of combat with healing surges. Second wind aside. I mean, 4e was huge, so I've no doubt there's a ton of variant class features and examples that give, say, fighters and rogues a stack of encounters to spend healing surges with. Players walking around with a ton of wands that they just zap themselves seems like a poor example. If your players really want to walk around with wands and make all those checks to heal- why say no, you can't? There's still an idea and feeling of expenditure when it comes to consumables. Especially as that often means forfeiting an action within combat. This is why I say it's a philosophy thing. I'm not as on board with going "nah, your potions don't heal you when you drink them because you spent all your healing points today"
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Jan 12, 2015 07:55
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Quantumfate posted:This is why I say it's a philosophy thing. I'm not as on board with going "nah, your potions don't heal you when you drink them because you spent all your healing points today" Remind me how this is different than saying "nah, your spell doesn't disembowel the monster when you cast it because you spent all your spell slots today"? Everything is arbitrary in a game system. Everything. poo poo, you can say the exact same thing about hit points. You have to abstract some things to make them mechanically work. If you wanted a fluff reason, you could argue that healing magic can only heal so much in a day (or any other timeframe you choose!) before your body starts rejecting any further magical "interference" with its natural healing. I really, legitimately want to like 5E. It just frustrates the hell out of me that the game moved away from any and all good ideas that 4E had because "oh gently caress all these grognards hate 4E so clearly we can't carry anything over or they won't buy 5E." It's loving maddening. Dick Burglar fucked around with this message at 08:03 on Jan 12, 2015 |
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Jan 12, 2015 08:00
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Quantumfate posted:I recall that without a Hey look, I made 5th Edition.
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Jan 12, 2015 08:01
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