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I really wish we could just say screw all this final showdown nonsense and have Redcloak join the team. Such an amazing character deserves more than to be killed off by a team of good guys who, however likeable, will just view him as another evil goblin lackey for a lich in the end. Dammit, I like Redcloak. And look at who all's on the team already and tell me a racist overtly Evil genocidal rear end in a top hat wouldn't fit in somewhere. If he could just drop the nihilism and somehow dodge the tragic end he's been headed for from the beginning, this could totally work! ...come on guys, work with me here!
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Jan 12, 2015 04:28
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I could at least see a temporary truce, except Haley and Belkar know Redcloak was the one in charge of the goblin force in Azure City.
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Jan 12, 2015 04:32
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Poison Mushroom posted:I could at least see a temporary truce, except Haley and Belkar know Redcloak was the one in charge of the goblin force in Azure City. Belkar wouldn't care, and in a fair world the team should give precisely as many shits about Haley's protests as they're giving to Belkar's re: Durkula right now. (ie: none) 
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Jan 12, 2015 04:49
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Zoe posted:I really wish we could just say screw all this final showdown nonsense and have Redcloak join the team. Such an amazing character deserves more than to be killed off by a team of good guys who, however likeable, will just view him as another evil goblin lackey for a lich in the end. Dammit, I like Redcloak. And look at who all's on the team already and tell me a racist overtly Evil genocidal rear end in a top hat wouldn't fit in somewhere. If he could just drop the nihilism and somehow dodge the tragic end he's been headed for from the beginning, this could totally work! Look, Redcloak is going to get narrative payoff on every decent thing he cares about. He might get it watching from goblin heaven, but there's too much emphasis placed on how important it is to him to let it all slide.
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Jan 12, 2015 04:58
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Zoe posted:I really wish we could just say screw all this final showdown nonsense and have Redcloak join the team. Such an amazing character deserves more than to be killed off by a team of good guys who, however likeable, will just view him as another evil goblin lackey for a lich in the end. Dammit, I like Redcloak. And look at who all's on the team already and tell me a racist overtly Evil genocidal rear end in a top hat wouldn't fit in somewhere. If he could just drop the nihilism and somehow dodge the tragic end he's been headed for from the beginning, this could totally work! I remember thinking Redcloak and Durkon might switch teams somehow when Durkon got vamped. Of course, the ultimate snag in this idea is that Redcloak is way too competent for these guys.
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Jan 12, 2015 09:24
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Cornwind Evil posted:After re-reading Start of Darkness, I'm now even more sure that Redcloak will end up the final villain, because he has a card none of the other villains have; willful self-negation. This is based on four things Didn't Redcloak explicitly state somewhere that destroying the world was plan B? As far as everyone's concerned, the gods are perfectly able to rebuild it, except this time the exp fodder races would have an advocate. I really don't think he'll snap and try to destroy the world when he's already rationalized how destroying it is better than the status quo. Not that that means he won't try to destroy it at all, of course.
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Jan 12, 2015 11:55
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Zoe posted:I really wish we could just say screw all this final showdown nonsense and have Redcloak join the team. Such an amazing character deserves more than to be killed off by a team of good guys who, however likeable, will just view him as another evil goblin lackey for a lich in the end. Dammit, I like Redcloak. And look at who all's on the team already and tell me a racist overtly Evil genocidal rear end in a top hat wouldn't fit in somewhere. If he could just drop the nihilism and somehow dodge the tragic end he's been headed for from the beginning, this could totally work! I like him too since he's grown a bit as a character; I want him at the very least to have narrative payoff even if the price for him is high.
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Jan 12, 2015 15:00
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Kajeesus posted:Didn't Redcloak explicitly state somewhere that destroying the world was plan B? As far as everyone's concerned, the gods are perfectly able to rebuild it, except this time the exp fodder races would have an advocate. I really don't think he'll snap and try to destroy the world when he's already rationalized how destroying it is better than the status quo. Not that that means he won't try to destroy it at all, of course. It's basically the Plan B, yeah. If the various gods are unwilling to negotiate and make things less poo poo for the various xp fodder races then welp, just nuke it and start over. Of course that ignores the fact that we don't know anywhere near enough about what's going on, because the world inside the rifts still exists. Redcloak did undergo a character arc and cares a lot about the other goblins. He might be... really upset if it turns out the Dark One knew more than he let on.
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Jan 12, 2015 15:09
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Shugojin posted:It's basically the Plan B, yeah. If the various gods are unwilling to negotiate and make things less poo poo for the various xp fodder races then welp, just nuke it and start over. I'm still holding on to my pet theory that the Dark One is the Snarl, or at least an aspect of it.
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Jan 12, 2015 18:18
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That would undermine the validity of the Goblins' complaints of unfair treatment if their main representative was a manipulator actually out to destroy the world. The goblins having a legitimate complaint and an extremist plan to address it is important to the story and Redcloak's character. I actually wonder how different the story would be if instead of teaming up with Xykon Redcloak had found a powerful good wizard who agreed that goblins were treated unfairly and cooperated to help him with his plan. Just for starters it'd remove Roy and friends' original motivation for confronting them, and would probably require more truth-hiding to get them to go along with stopping the plan.
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Jan 12, 2015 18:42
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Dolash posted:I actually wonder how different the story would be if instead of teaming up with Xykon Redcloak had found a powerful good wizard who agreed that goblins were treated unfairly and cooperated to help him with his plan. Just for starters it'd remove Roy and friends' original motivation for confronting them, and would probably require more truth-hiding to get them to go along with stopping the plan. To do that, he'd have to stop hiding, and without the most powerful evil wizard in existence or a goblin army to protect him, Redcloak would have been hunted down by the Paladins pretty drat fast. It's not like they would have waited to hear an explanation, they'd go full Miko on him.
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Jan 12, 2015 18:47
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Legitimate or not, I think a good wizard would have some serious issues with the way Redcloak does ...well almost everything. Redcloak is just as blind as the humans he hates so much. He lumps all humans together in one group. In Redcloaks world, Goblins would be the humans, and the humans, goblins.
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Jan 12, 2015 18:47
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I don't think a good wizard would want to mess with forces that can destroy the world, even for a good cause. Unless you're talking about D&D Good, in which case they couldn't ally with goblins in the first place.
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Jan 12, 2015 19:32
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Redcloak has a sympathetic motivation but it's worth remembering he's still a horrifyingly awful person who takes no small delight in murder, torture and defilement.
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Jan 12, 2015 20:40
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ImpAtom posted:Redcloak has a sympathetic motivation but it's worth remembering he's still a horrifyingly awful person who takes no small delight in murder, torture and defilement. But if he had a pet? Whole different story.
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Jan 12, 2015 20:47
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redcloak is like, the most righteous revolutionary possible but his methods are completely terrible. i enjoy it a lot and its good writing, to create that
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Jan 12, 2015 20:50
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Tenebrais posted:I don't think a good wizard would want to mess with forces that can destroy the world, even for a good cause. Unless you're talking about D&D Good, in which case they couldn't ally with goblins in the first place. He could probably have managed to get a Neutral something-or-other though, I guess. I mean basically he went with the first powerful arcane spellcaster he found and later learned that guy was a total dick.
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Jan 12, 2015 20:51
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Shugojin posted:He could probably have managed to get a Neutral something-or-other though, I guess. Along those lines, I'm kinda curious now about whether/how Redcloak would have worked with Vaarsuvius in Xykon's place if things had fallen out that way. I suppose the mutual racial prejudice would have made it unworkable even though V is almost certainly amoral enough to do something like this in pursuit of power and the knowledge of some esoteric new ritual.
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Jan 12, 2015 21:01
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The Dark One's plan is to create a crossover with the Goblins universe.
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Jan 12, 2015 21:05
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Dolash posted:That would undermine the validity of the Goblins' complaints of unfair treatment if their main representative was a manipulator actually out to destroy the world. The goblins having a legitimate complaint and an extremist plan to address it is important to the story and Redcloak's character. Someone capable of acting as a sort of morality pet/conscious to slowly steer Redcloak towards nobler methods could've been possible.
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Jan 12, 2015 21:16
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Raenir Salazar posted:Someone capable of acting as a sort of morality pet/conscious to slowly steer Redcloak towards nobler methods could've been possible. Hahahaha, it most certainly didn't work.
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Jan 12, 2015 21:25
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Raenir Salazar posted:Someone capable of acting as a sort of morality pet/conscious to slowly steer Redcloak towards nobler methods could've been possible.
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Jan 12, 2015 21:26
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The O-chul on the tower torture scene, I think, encapsulates Redcloak. Or at least, it does the inherent difference in outlooks between humans and goblin.
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Jan 12, 2015 21:31
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His brother wasn't a powerful wizard.
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Jan 12, 2015 21:37
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Raenir Salazar posted:Someone capable of acting as a sort of morality pet/conscious to slowly steer Redcloak towards nobler methods could've been possible. If you can spare the money, get Start of Darkness. On a related note, consider this my perennial "FFS just go with digital comics Burlew" rant. I wouldn't mind getting the new book for the bonus strips, but not for his short print run + international shipping rates.
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Jan 12, 2015 21:42
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I mean, Redcloak is evil. That he couldn't not be is kind of the linchpin of the whole story.
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Jan 12, 2015 21:42
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My Lovely Horse posted:I mean, Redcloak is evil. That he couldn't not be is kind of the linchpin of the whole story. But he's grown up evil, not the preteen evil of vanilla D&D.
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Jan 12, 2015 21:54
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Raenir Salazar posted:His brother wasn't a powerful wizard. Yeah, that's the key point. A powerful arcane caster who shares Redcloak's desire for a fair shake for monster races and willingness to be an extremist to make it happen could make for an interesting and very different kind of story. Obviously if we're talking D&D capital-G-Good then it's hard to imagine someone working with Redcloak, but if we consider well-intentioned radicals outside of the restrictive D&D morality grid there's a lot of potential. Not that there's anything wrong with the setup with Xykon, since his added evil flair helps drive the traditional D&D elements of the story and his interactions with Redcloak are layered with plenty of deception and tension, it's a credit to Redcloak's character that he could support an entirely different type of plot with different allies. Imagining Redcloak as the more senior or more evil/ruthless partner in particular would change the tone.
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Jan 12, 2015 22:23
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My Lovely Horse posted:I mean, Redcloak is evil. That he couldn't not be is kind of the linchpin of the whole story. Discounting the whole 'always chaotic evil would you kill an orc baby' nonsense, Redcloak is evil because his first experience with humans was a group of Sapphire City paladins riding a thousand miles from their town into a goblin settlement that wasn't bothering them at all and killing them to a man with the purest form of 'dehumanization' you could probably get, while proclaiming their righteous cause, all because once a goblin banded a bunch of goblins together for fairer treatment and they literally backstabbed him and started killing any goblins that gathered in groups because of the fallout of that decision.. Redcloak is evil because the world is worse; it's CLUELESS evil, wholly cloaked in the idea of being good. In some ways I'm amazed he hasn't turned into a clone of Xykon, that kind of rage eats away EVERYTHING in a person.
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Jan 13, 2015 00:42
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He very nearly did. The battle for Azure City was a serious low point for him where he finally remembered what the gently caress he was doing everything for.
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Jan 13, 2015 00:47
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Maybe things would've been better for Redcloak if Xykon had died before he became a lich. It's all the drat elves fault, as usual. If only they hadn't used that bullshit gate defense.
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Jan 13, 2015 01:11
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Cornwind Evil posted:Discounting the whole 'always chaotic evil would you kill an orc baby' nonsense, Redcloak is evil because his first experience with humans was a group of Sapphire City paladins riding a thousand miles from their town into a goblin settlement that wasn't bothering them at all and killing them to a man with the purest form of 'dehumanization' you could probably get, while proclaiming their righteous cause, all because once a goblin banded a bunch of goblins together for fairer treatment and they literally backstabbed him and started killing any goblins that gathered in groups because of the fallout of that decision.. Redcloak isn't just a poo poo to humans though. He is a poo poo to everyone. He was a tremendous poo poo even to a race of people barely divorced to his own until he had a heart change there and only after brutally murdering and defiling countless numbers of them. Redcloak has a sympathetic backstory but he is also a lovely person. We see in his backstory that even other goblins in almost the same position as him wouldn't have made the same choices he did. He's doing it for a sympathetic cause but at the root of that sympathetic cause is him being a bit of a shitlord.
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Jan 13, 2015 01:18
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Cornwind Evil posted:Discounting the whole 'always chaotic evil would you kill an orc baby' nonsense, Redcloak is evil because his first experience with humans was a group of Sapphire City paladins riding a thousand miles from their town into a goblin settlement that wasn't bothering them at all and killing them to a man with the purest form of 'dehumanization' you could probably get, while proclaiming their righteous cause, all because once a goblin banded a bunch of goblins together for fairer treatment and they literally backstabbed him and started killing any goblins that gathered in groups because of the fallout of that decision.. Yeah, Azure City kinda had it coming. It really highlights how hosed up the world is when PALADINS of all people can basically commit genocide because, well, goblins are all born evil after all  .
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Jan 13, 2015 01:19
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ImpAtom posted:Redcloak isn't just a poo poo to humans though. He is a poo poo to everyone. He was a tremendous poo poo even to a race of people barely divorced to his own until he had a heart change there and only after brutally murdering and defiling countless numbers of them. so is everyone else in the story but elan and haley. they are all shitheads
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Jan 13, 2015 01:20
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 Order of the Stick 972 - She Might Even Be a Bit AheadSo she managed to knock out Elan in one blow and her damage resistance is too high for any single attack of Haley's (even with +5 and Icy Burst on each arrow, which seems extreme). And as a construct, she can't be sneak attacked. Roy, V or Durkula could probably take care of this thing. But since none of them are around, time for those wands to come into play.
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Jan 13, 2015 01:26
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Carrasco posted:
It's not necessarily damage resistance, she might have high natural armour and the arrows are succeeding for a touch attack but failing to overcome AC.
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Jan 13, 2015 01:29
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Carrasco posted:
Longbow only does 1d8, so altogether it's only 1d8+5+1d6 Cold (and another 1d10 Cold on a crit). The cold damage is probably resisted or ignored outright, and 6-13 is easily ignorable on average for Damage Reduction 10. The biggest thing for +5 weapons isn't their bonus damage, it's helping you actually hit. +1 to Hit is always much more useful than +1 damage, especially for rogues who throw out more d6's than a lotto winner at a strip club throws out singles.
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Jan 13, 2015 01:53
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So yeah, weird semi-sentient flesh golem. Either Grubwiggler got raised or maybe one of his hunchbacks survived the slaughter and took up the business. Given the way golems work, I'd suspect that's a really high DR, maybe even customized against Piercing damage since they know Haley's an archer and all. Somehow I doubt Haley invested in adamantium weapons....
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Jan 13, 2015 01:53
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I think she knocked Elan out with one punch because she's a sentient golem and kept some class abilities like sneak attack. Still bad, but not "50 strength" bad. quote:Discounting the whole 'always chaotic evil would you kill an orc baby' nonsense, Redcloak is evil because his first experience with humans was a group of Sapphire City paladins riding a thousand miles from their town into a goblin settlement that wasn't bothering them at all and killing them to a man with the purest form of 'dehumanization' you could probably get, while proclaiming their righteous cause, all because once a goblin banded a bunch of goblins together for fairer treatment and they literally backstabbed him and started killing any goblins that gathered in groups because of the fallout of that decision.. The paladins weren't out there massacring goblin villages for the hell of it. They were specifically hunting the bearer of the Crimson Mantle, a guy with an artifact that literally has the potential to destroy the world. I mean it's still bad that some of them got thoroughly carried away and massacred a bunch of goblin civilians in pursuit of the Crimson Mantle, but the overall goal is fairly legitimate.
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Jan 13, 2015 01:53
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Indeed, if they'd kept their eye on the prize and just converged on the Mantle, killed the Bearer, then taken it away rather than scattering around to try and kill every last goblin man, woman, and child, they probably would have succeeded and both saved the world and kept Azure City from being crushed a few generations later!
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Jan 13, 2015 01:58
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