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Nth Doctor posted:I thought the rumor was that he had stolen money from the offerings at the mosque. To the tune of some massive amount of money, so much as to be implausible as the mosque would have noticed it. Didn't Adnan cop to some petty theft from the mosque instead? To look at another side of the story, man this was just full of weird and unfinished angles: - body found by streaker - killer supposedly drives around with body in car, showing it to people - hotshot lawyer goes loco for no explained reason - chief witness is the guy who helped conceal the body and failed to report a crime for 6 weeks - witnesses pop up, give their story and then change their mind - mystery phone calls
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Jan 13, 2015 01:34
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ApexAftermath posted:Just finished this after a two day marathon. If pressed I would have to say I personally think Adnan probably did do it. However I do not think the legal standard of proof was even close to being met here. I still have a reasonable amount of doubt. Agreed 100%. fullroundaction posted:If I was innocent of murder but got framed for it by one of my acquaintances/friends for seemingly no reason whatsoever - and it landed me in jail for life - I think the "why" of that whole situation would be a reasonable thing to dwell on. There was a literal explanation in the very post you quoted of multiple reasons, both legal and otherwise, why Adnan might not dwell on it even if innocent. The "if this happened to me" line of thinking means nothing.
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Jan 13, 2015 01:37
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Color me shocked that people that just finished marathoning the podcast came to the same conclusion that the host of the podcast did. Wow.
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Jan 13, 2015 01:40
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SamuraiFoochs posted:There was a literal explanation in the very post you quoted of multiple reasons, both legal and otherwise, why Adnan might not dwell on it even if innocent. The "if this happened to me" line of thinking means nothing. I'm sorry my opinion/speculation upset you so much.
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Jan 13, 2015 01:43
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Dear Sergio posted:Color me shocked that people that just finished marathoning the podcast came to the same conclusion that the host of the podcast did. Wow. From the moment I started the podcast I thought "He probably did it but that doesn't mean the prosecution had a flimsy as hell case and there are enough questions for legal reasonable doubt which is weird." What's so weird about that? Also nothing upset me, I was saying there's an answer to your question. 
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Jan 13, 2015 01:45
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SamuraiFoochs posted:From the moment I started the podcast I thought "He probably did it but that doesn't mean the prosecution had a flimsy as hell case and there are enough questions for legal reasonable doubt which is weird." What's so weird about that? There's nothing weird about it. It's what pretty much everyone who doesn't write for the Intercept thinks.
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Jan 13, 2015 01:47
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its more likely imo that jay framed adnan and murdered hae with a korean lady strangler in a drug deal gone bad
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Jan 13, 2015 02:04
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Hae faked her own death and changed her name to Sarah Koenig.
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Jan 13, 2015 02:41
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docbeard posted:Hae faked her own death and changed her name to Sarah Koenig. Next season on Serial
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Jan 13, 2015 03:09
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kdrudy posted:Next season on Serial With your new host: The West Side Hit Man
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Jan 13, 2015 04:01
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Also the fact that internet detectives are trying to exonerate Adnan is really loving sad. Don't get me wrong, that Innocence Project endeavor is one thing (and the fact that that woman seemed so confident he was worth trying to exonerate him when she's seen it all is probably the biggest thing I personally find in Adnan's favor). But some loving Redditor stalking Jay's family or some poo poo in an effort to "crack the case" is both pathetic and creepy.
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Jan 13, 2015 04:35
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SamuraiFoochs posted:Also the fact that internet detectives are trying to exonerate Adnan is really loving sad. Don't get me wrong, that Innocence Project endeavor is one thing (and the fact that that woman seemed so confident he was worth trying to exonerate him when she's seen it all is probably the biggest thing I personally find in Adnan's favor). But some loving Redditor stalking Jay's family or some poo poo in an effort to "crack the case" is both pathetic and creepy.
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Jan 13, 2015 04:41
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If Jay did it yet took so many steps to hide his involvement and then went on to turn himself in to scapegoat Adnan is incredibly convoluted and stupid.
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Jan 13, 2015 05:44
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SamuraiFoochs posted:(and the fact that that woman seemed so confident he was worth trying to exonerate him when she's seen it all is probably the biggest thing I personally find in Adnan's favor). Didn't she not even really know him that well? I can't remember which ep she shows up in but if I recall they were not super close friends in high school, someone correct me if I'm wrong.
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Jan 13, 2015 05:48
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Mad Man Pusco posted:If Jay did it yet took so many steps to hide his involvement and then went on to turn himself in to scapegoat Adnan is incredibly convoluted and stupid. jay being a mastermind criminal with a secret motive is to many people far more likely than the explanation that the jealous ex-boyfriend strangled his girlfriend
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Jan 13, 2015 05:57
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Orkin Mang posted:jay being a mastermind criminal with a secret motive is to many people far more likely than the explanation that the jealous ex-boyfriend strangled his girlfriend No one thinks Jay is a mastermind. A good portion of people say that Jay is probably more involved than he claims. There is a piece of the story that's missing.
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Jan 13, 2015 06:25
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Drunk Tomato posted:No one thinks Jay is a mastermind. You haven't been reading reddit then. And sure, maybe Jay is 'more involved' than he claims (or maybe he isn't) and he gave misleading and changing testimony because he was trying to protect himself from at least being busted for dealing drugs, was trying to protect his friends and family from being implicated with him (especially his grandmother, out of whose house he was dealing those drugs, and where he now says, quite plausibly, Adnan first showed him the body), and was also simply misremembering the timing of events. I see no problem in accepting that he might have had more to do with the disposing of the body than he's saying and that he may very well have assisted Adnan in burying Hae, which I think was what he said initially but he now seems to deny. I see absolutely no reason to think, however, that he had anything to do with actually killing Hae or planning her murder, because there's no evidence that he did and no reasonable explanation of why he'd want to.
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Jan 13, 2015 06:54
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Orkin Mang posted:You haven't been reading reddit then. Lol of course not
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Jan 13, 2015 07:38
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Dear Sergio posted:Didn't she not even really know him that well? I can't remember which ep she shows up in but if I recall they were not super close friends in high school, someone correct me if I'm wrong. I meant the woman from the UVA school who had no personal vested interest in the case. She's in "The Other Side of the Prosecution" or whatever the title is. This is a woman who worked on Innocence Projects for like 25 years, saw her fair share of bullshitters, and not only agreed the case against Adnan was flimsy at best, but when Koenig muses "Maybe he's just this super skilled sociopath" her response was "You're not that lucky." I assume that refers to the fact that if he was a sociopath she could forget the case and rest easy. AFAIK she had no connection to Adnan at all, and Koenig merely initially contacted her about a similar case in which she proved a wrongful conviction.
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Jan 13, 2015 08:55
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outlier posted:To the tune of some massive amount of money, so much as to be implausible as the mosque would have noticed it. Didn't Adnan cop to some petty theft from the mosque instead? The guy who SK speaks to on the phone says it was something ridiculous like 20k that Adnan stole in total, but it turns out to be like 40 dollars. I really don't know what happened with his lawyer, other than she just made a bad play and focused her case on trying to maybe prove that Jay did it with no evidence. If she focused mainly on the inconsistencies in Adnan's case she probably would've had a better chance, but when Jay is on the stand he completely comes across as the more reasonable of the two.
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Jan 13, 2015 10:19
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DrVenkman posted:The guy who SK speaks to on the phone says it was something ridiculous like 20k that Adnan stole in total, but it turns out to be like 40 dollars. nobody is sure exactly how much he stole as far as i know. and it might have been quite a lot depending on how long adnan had been doing it for. i dont recall koenig ever asking him when he stopped stealing from the mosque. stealing small amounts for a long period time would add up.
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Jan 13, 2015 10:44
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Orkin Mang posted:nobody is sure exactly how much he stole as far as i know. and it might have been quite a lot depending on how long adnan had been doing it for. i dont recall koenig ever asking him when he stopped stealing from the mosque. stealing small amounts for a long period time would add up. Not to twenty goddamn grand it wouldn't. She asked at the mosque and they said they'd have noticed any significant loss, which only makes sense if you think about it.
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Jan 13, 2015 11:11
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Orkin Mang posted:nobody is sure exactly how much he stole as far as i know. and it might have been quite a lot depending on how long adnan had been doing it for. i dont recall koenig ever asking him when he stopped stealing from the mosque. stealing small amounts for a long period time would add up. If he stole $20/week, he would have had to have stolen )20 a week since he was born to equal 20k by the time Hae was murdered
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Jan 13, 2015 12:09
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where did i say he stole 20k? all i'm saying is that we don't know how much he stole and how long he was stealing it for. koenig might have asked but for some reason she chose not to.
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Jan 13, 2015 12:11
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The rumor we still don't know about is the one where SK says something to the effect of, "I mean, if this is true, we can all go home." - her tone implied that if that rumor were true, it was likely tied directly to Adnan's guilt. I imagine it has something to do with the mysterious "he threatened me" teaser from the first episode that never paid off, or that Adnan confessed to his Imam, who tried to plead the fifth and couldn't. The rumor about the money being stolen from the mosque was pretty well covered in that episode, "rumors."
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Jan 13, 2015 12:58
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The mosque skimming also led to one of Adnan's more demonstrably manipulative moments: SK portrayed him in a negative light so he withheld communication and "friendship" for a week. I'm no court-qualified expert in identifying manipulative people, but this is the sort of thing people learn to recognize from lovely relationships or bossy co-workers.
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Jan 13, 2015 14:05
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Conclusive evidence that he's a murderer if I ever heard it.
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Jan 13, 2015 14:55
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moths posted:The mosque skimming also led to one of Adnan's more demonstrably manipulative moments: SK portrayed him in a negative light so he withheld communication and "friendship" for a week. I'm no court-qualified expert in identifying manipulative people, but this is the sort of thing people learn to recognize from lovely relationships or bossy co-workers. Or someone becoming exasperated with bullshit allegations. Are you really going to listen to every half-assed story by any so-called acquaintance and then challenge me to deny them? The hell with you ... Which is not a plea for or an assumption of Adnan's innocence. Just pointing out that psychologizing can cut both ways and that so many of the "facts" of this story derive from single witnesses tangentially connected to the case dealing in scuttlebutt and hearsay.
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Jan 13, 2015 15:06
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moths posted:The mosque skimming also led to one of Adnan's more demonstrably manipulative moments: SK portrayed him in a negative light so he withheld communication and "friendship" for a week. I'm no court-qualified expert in identifying manipulative people, but this is the sort of thing people learn to recognize from lovely relationships or bossy co-workers.
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Jan 13, 2015 15:14
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I'm not really decided on Adnan's innocence, but if there is a scenario where he is innocent, I don't think there is any chance of Jay being the killer. The more likely scenario is that Jay had nothing to do with it period and the police coerced his testimony and told him what to say because they were confident that Adnan was there man. Who knows. There's always the chance of something extraordinary having happened but it seems like too big a lead to make without evidence.
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Jan 13, 2015 15:18
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Not every manipulative person is a killer, but it would probably help Adnan's case if he didn't constantly come across as a colossal douche.
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Jan 13, 2015 15:30
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moths posted:The mosque skimming also led to one of Adnan's more demonstrably manipulative moments: SK portrayed him in a negative light so he withheld communication and "friendship" for a week. I'm no court-qualified expert in identifying manipulative people, but this is the sort of thing people learn to recognize from lovely relationships or bossy co-workers. This was oddly...damning for me. The way he reacted was over the top when you consider that conversation happened during the course of her needling him about the fact he was a convicted murderer. Then he came back and admitted he did steal from the mosque, though to a minuscule degree and stopped when his mom caught him. FlamingLiberal posted:People get upset at accusations of theft. I don't think he was playing games. I mean the guy seems remarkably well-adjusted for being in jail for life as it is. That will mess with the best of us. It doesn't seem a bit odd a 35-year-old convicted murderer got bent out of shape about something (that he admitted to) he did when he was 12 or 13? Agent Burt Macklin fucked around with this message at 15:50 on Jan 13, 2015 |
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Jan 13, 2015 15:39
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The extent to which he image-crafts is frankly amazing, and it's no coincidence that his major blow-up at her was over something that works against it. This is the guy who searched his passenger seat for long hairs to keep his mom thinking he never drove girls around. E: And to some degree, he has no choice. His family and community spent tens of thousands assuming his innocence, and if he stops playing up to that, it's admitting to taking advantage and using everybody he knows. SK was in a similar spot, where she could either narrate things to force ambiguity, find some magical non-smoking gun to exonerate him, or acknowledge that she wasted a year and everybody's time giving a killer a platform to endear himself to podcast listeners. The most interesting thing to me about Serial is Serial itself. I really can't wait to see what lessons were learned going into S2. I expect she won't go forward with something where the principle actors are uncooperative. moths fucked around with this message at 16:04 on Jan 13, 2015 |
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Jan 13, 2015 15:46
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SamuraiFoochs posted:This is a woman who worked on Innocence Projects for like 25 years, saw her fair share of bullshitters, and not only agreed the case against Adnan was flimsy at best, but when Koenig muses "Maybe he's just this super skilled sociopath" her response was "You're not that lucky." That quote bothered me from the get-go: Adnan is either innocent or a stone-cold psychopath and, statistically, he isn't the latter. I think it was the next episode where Koenig interviews an investigator who states that nice people commit murder all of the time, one doesn't need to be a psychopath. I honestly think that if Koening were not advocating so hard for Adnan, she would have placed those two statements side-by-side in the same episode. As it is, almost everybody remembers the first statement without remembering the second.
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Jan 13, 2015 15:57
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Human posted:I'm not really decided on Adnan's innocence, but if there is a scenario where he is innocent, I don't think there is any chance of Jay being a killer. But Jay was the one who told the cops where Hae's car was, and how she had been killed. Mighty lucky guesses if he had nothing to do with it at all.
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Jan 13, 2015 16:15
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What was jay told, or what did he tell the police, in the interview rooms before they started recording? Has that been covered anywhere? Im just asking questions, see.
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Jan 13, 2015 16:40
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It's amazing how different sides of this argument have minimized or completely ignore things to push their pre-decided stance. Oh did I say amazing? I meant completely typical. Anyone thinking this is a clear cut case either way is deluding themselves, and the passion with which some people articulate their point is a bit distressing considering the shakey ground they stand on. It's very reminiscent of the cognitive dissonance which plagues so many political beliefs. Raar_Im_A_Dinosaur fucked around with this message at 18:33 on Jan 13, 2015 |
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Jan 13, 2015 18:30
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moths posted:This is the guy who searched his passenger seat for long hairs to keep his mom thinking he never drove girls around. I'm amazed that you think this is particularly damning. If his mother found some and he caught poo poo for it, of course he learned to make sure there was nothing to find in the future. (And even if he didn't, I still personally don't think much of it—in high school, I was kind of a goody-two-shoes and the worst things I got up to were pretty mild, but I can absolutely remember trying to cover my tracks in really nitpicky ways. Maybe...maybe I'm the psycho  ) I don't feel super strongly about Adnan's potential guilt or innocence, but it seems like people are trying to give minor issues a lot more weight than they deserve based on how they feel about whether he did it.Raar_Im_A_Dinosaur posted:It's amazing how different sides of this argument have minimized or completely ignore things to push their pre-decided stance. Oh did I say amazing? I meant completely typical. Anyone thinking this is a clear cut case either way is deluding themselves, and the passion with which some people articulate their point is a bit distressing considering the shakey ground they stand on. This, basically.
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Jan 13, 2015 18:45
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Raar_Im_A_Dinosaur posted:It's amazing how different sides of this argument have minimized or completely ignore things to push their pre-decided stance. Oh did I say amazing? I meant completely typical. Anyone thinking this is a clear cut case either way is deluding themselves, and the passion with which some people articulate their point is a bit distressing considering the shakey ground they stand on. Welcome to being a human person! The person on the other side of the coin thinks you have a case of the ol' cognitive dissonance. To think that anyone other than Adnan did this is madness. AND gently caress YOU IF YOU THINK OTHERWISE. 
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Jan 13, 2015 19:26
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I meant that Adnan has been depicted as someone very preoccupied with how he's percieved. Sorry if that was confusing.
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Jan 13, 2015 19:31
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