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Nenonen posted:It's really hard psychologically to leave your friends and deflect to the enemy which you know nothing about except that they've been doing their best to kill you and your superiors have told you are bloodthirsty monsters, subhuman mongrels or worse. It's a leap to the unknown and you don't know if you'll ever see your family again if you do so. And finally you stand a chance of getting shot by either side while crossing the no man's land. Kinda depends on what war and who you are facing too. I wouldn't have been wanted to be a PoW to the Japanese in WW2, but Hogans Heroes ran rings around Colonel Klink and Sgt. Schultz.
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Jan 12, 2015 22:58
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Jazerus posted:This guy I guess. Of course any story that starts with both candidates for the throne nowhere near Poland and both having to rush to Poland to promptly have a war of succession is basically sejm.txt. The best story was when Henry III sent a cardinal (or a bishop? Whatever) to start campaigning for him, but just as the guy arrived, news came in about the St. Bartholomew's Day massacre and this kinda jeopardized the kid's chances (imagine the US Democratic candidate being involved in an anti-Semite rally a month before the election - something about equivalent). The envoy started sending angry letters back home ("it would have been kind of you to have waited with all that butchering, fucksakes") and demanded they send him a huge portrait of Henry. Whenever anyone brought up the massacre, he called for the portrait and went "does he look like a murderer to you?"
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Jan 12, 2015 23:26
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Trin Tragula posted:The BEF lost about 2,000 men to desertion in January 1915, plus the ones who got caught and court-martialled, which is (I think) between 5% and 15% of their overall strength at the time. (I'd love to get my hands on equivalent numbers for other armies.) A far more popular strategy was to commit some heinous military crime like stealing or insubordination, wangle a nice long prison sentence off the FGCM, and have your war doing hard labour near Etaples. I've been reading Louis Barthas, he says that those sentences were suspended until after the war. And reading about punishment #1 from your earlier posts... I think the brass got wise to that pretty quickly. Also he had an amusing anecdote about an officer trying to arrest a soldier for fraternization, and the guy basically said "gently caress off" and legged it over to the enemy lines.
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Jan 12, 2015 23:49
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This is an oddly specific question, but what model of T-34 would the Hungarians have used in the '56 uprising?
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Jan 13, 2015 02:01
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StashAugustine posted:This is an oddly specific question, but what model of T-34 would the Hungarians have used in the '56 uprising? Almost certainly the T-34/85, if they used any kind of T-34 at all.
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Jan 13, 2015 02:08
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StashAugustine posted:This is an oddly specific question, but what model of T-34 would the Hungarians have used in the '56 uprising? Which Hungarians? The army, which had been equipped with T-34/85s by the Soviets, sided with the state and the Soviets. The Soviet forces that were sent in to crush the uprising were also using T-34/85s, along with other late WWII-era AFVs like the IS-3. It's possible that the revolutionaries may have captured some tanks off the Hungarian army.
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Jan 13, 2015 03:40
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The Hungarians notably captured a T-54 and dropped it off at whatever Britain was running as semi-embassy where the military attaché got to examine it.
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Jan 13, 2015 03:57
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Looking for a book recommendation. Got Shattered Sword for myself, and am now looking for any similar books, preferably covering some aspect of the Pacific War or other naval conflict that I might be able to find at my local B&N or library. Already have and enjoyed Castles of Steel.
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Jan 13, 2015 04:52
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EvanSchenck posted:Which Hungarians? The army, which had been equipped with T-34/85s by the Soviets, sided with the state and the Soviets. The Soviet forces that were sent in to crush the uprising were also using T-34/85s, along with other late WWII-era AFVs like the IS-3. It's possible that the revolutionaries may have captured some tanks off the Hungarian army. Were they? I'm pretty sure it was only T-44s and T-54s. By then, T-34-85s were either statues or serving in other armies.
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Jan 13, 2015 06:25
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Ensign Expendable posted:Were they? I'm pretty sure it was only T-44s and T-54s. By then, T-34-85s were either statues or serving in other armies.   Edit: Think the upper one is definitely a T-34/85, not sure about the lower one. AceRimmer fucked around with this message at 06:50 on Jan 13, 2015 |
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Jan 13, 2015 06:44
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Cythereal posted:Looking for a book recommendation. Got Shattered Sword for myself, and am now looking for any similar books, preferably covering some aspect of the Pacific War or other naval conflict that I might be able to find at my local B&N or library. Already have and enjoyed Castles of Steel. I'm partial to Neptune's Inferno. It's a great account of the night fighting in the Solomons, with an emphasis on 1st Guadalcanal (US cruisers versus IJN battleships). That's an incredibly confusing action, so the author put together every first hand account he could get his hands on and goes through it ship by ship. It's still confusing, but much better explained than any other account of the battle.
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Jan 13, 2015 06:51
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No, those look like -34s, based on the big clearance between the round portion of the turret and the hull.
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Jan 13, 2015 06:52
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Yes, it's like a lava lamp.
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Wild that there were still East German reserve units with T-34/85s in the 1980s.
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Jan 13, 2015 06:54
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AceRimmer posted:Wild that there were still East German reserve units with T-34/85s in the 1980s. I guess if you're infantry without any AT weapons it doesn't matter whether or not the tank bearing down on you is forty years old.
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Jan 13, 2015 07:28
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Or maybe their own populace rather. They wouldn't have ached to go up against Best German reserve infantry with PzF 44s, never mind regular NATO units with all kinds of AT assets coming out the wazoo.
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Jan 13, 2015 08:22
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Phone posting so I can't quote Cythereal but I really enjoyed The Last Stand of the Tin Can Sailors.
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Jan 13, 2015 10:51
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Anyone got suggestions for books with good/interesting material on the IJA during WW2?
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Jan 13, 2015 11:05
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Splode posted:I guess if you're infantry without any AT weapons it doesn't matter whether or not the tank bearing down on you is forty years old. Even the USSR itself kept T-34/85s around for its rearward divisions until about 1980. They would still be a significant part of the Soviet arsenal in 1956, though they wouldn't be a part of those tip of the spear units that were deployed in Germany.
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Jan 13, 2015 11:33
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Ensign Expendable posted:Were they? I'm pretty sure it was only T-44s and T-54s. By then, T-34-85s were either statues or serving in other armies. T-44s and T-54s participated but the pictorial evidence is mostly T-34-85s, with some IS-3s and T-54s here and there. Admittedly I'm not the best person to be distinguishing between two vaguely similar-looking tanks in grainy '50s photographs, so maybe you can find some, but they're usually described as T-34-85s. Speculatively, the Soviets were supposed to have a policy of keeping their current frontline tanks away from NATO's prying eyes, so with an offensive operation in urban terrain they might have been more comfortable with their obsolete models assuming the risk of destruction or capture.
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Jan 13, 2015 14:12
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AceRimmer posted:
Huh, so they are. Those are both T-34-85s, so can tell by the machinegun ball in the upper front plate. The T-44 doesn't have one.
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Jan 13, 2015 14:19
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FAUXTON posted:
Are you saying that Britain is worse than Japan for admitting to war crimes and the like? Because that's a pretty bizarre statement to make.
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Jan 13, 2015 15:10
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I think (s)he's coming at it from an 'in daily life' perspective, in which case you could substitute Britain for pretty much any other 'Western' country. e: VVV literally more dakka Koesj fucked around with this message at 15:30 on Jan 13, 2015 |
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Jan 13, 2015 15:24
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PittTheElder posted:No, those look like -34s, based on the big clearance between the round portion of the turret and the hull. Also the protruding bow MG. I never quite understood the point of the T-44 hull machinegun - it was operated by the driver, but to aim horizontally it he'd have to steer the tank because the MG was fixed. To aim vertically one would presumably find a suitable up/down slope...
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Jan 13, 2015 15:27
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Saki posted:Are you saying that Britain is worse than Japan for admitting to war crimes and the like? Because that's a pretty bizarre statement to make. Not necessarily any specific war crimes, but more of an average stance on the country's actions. Take UKIP for example, nobody in their right mind would argue that Japan doesn't have a similar take on "foreigners" at some level, they're just missing the "BNP at half volume" style of discourse in which UKIP flourishes. It's a bit like the guy after you posted, a daily life kind of thing.
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Jan 13, 2015 16:10
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Koesj posted:I think (s)he's coming at it from an 'in daily life' perspective, in which case you could substitute Britain for pretty much any other 'Western' country. 
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Jan 13, 2015 16:26
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FAUXTON posted:Not necessarily any specific war crimes, but more of an average stance on the country's actions. Take UKIP for example, nobody in their right mind would argue that Japan doesn't have a similar take on "foreigners" at some level, they're just missing the "BNP at half volume" style of discourse in which UKIP flourishes. It's a bit like the guy after you posted, a daily life kind of thing. Nah, Japanese right wingers are a lot more racist, and there is way more open daily racism for foreigners in Japanese society. It's not even close with a Western country from that perspective. Added to that, most people in the British right don't tend to question the historicity of things like the bombing of Dresden, though they might argue it is justifiable. That is quite different from Japanese right wingers who claim that equivalent events like the rape of Nanking never happened. That is like the British government officially announcing that it not only does it no longer apologise for Atlantic slavery/bombing of Dresden/shooting of shellshock victims in WW1, but that it doesn't even admit it ever happened. It is a major difference.
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Jan 13, 2015 16:48
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So here's a bit of a silly question: Hegel, in your studies have you ever run across any guidelines or instructions of what a good officer should be like? Traits to cultivate, actions he should take, skills he should have, that kind of thing? Meanwhile, anybody in or associated with modern militaries - have you the same? I'm kinda interested in what's similar and what's changed in terms of "what makes a good officer" after three or four centuries.
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Jan 13, 2015 16:48
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Cythereal posted:Looking for a book recommendation. Got Shattered Sword for myself, and am now looking for any similar books, preferably covering some aspect of the Pacific War or other naval conflict that I might be able to find at my local B&N or library. Already have and enjoyed Castles of Steel. Seconding Neptune's Inferno, and I'm currently working through The Battle of Surigao Strait by one of the Shattered Sword authors and it's also very good so far. Any by good I mean "goddamn there's a lot of bleakness and nihilism on a book written from the Japanese POV in October of 1944"
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Jan 13, 2015 17:11
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Disinterested posted:Nah, Japanese right wingers are a lot more racist, and there is way more open daily racism for foreigners in Japanese society. It's not even close with a Western country from that perspective. Added to that, most people in the British right don't tend to question the historicity of things like the bombing of Dresden, though they might argue it is justifiable. That is quite different from Japanese right wingers who claim that equivalent events like the rape of Nanking never happened. Yeah, that's probably a better way to look at it - I was thinking of the cultural scaling regarding communicating (I've been writing a lot of global training stuff for work) and the non-verbal bias in emotional rapport, e.g. the avoiding of those topics is in a way apologizing and acknowledging their horror. "Would Japan apologize for Imperial-era crimes if they could bring themselves to acknowledge they happened" versus "Are they avoiding acknowledgement as a logical extension of refusing to apologize?" versus Thatcher's ghost still haunting UK politics and the related use of race-based immigration politics as UKIP vehicle. It's that weird slow-burn effect where it doesn't initially seem as awful because it isn't so loud, despite being so quiet because the awfulness is so broadly given a pass among the relevant actors.
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Jan 13, 2015 17:12
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Tomn posted:So here's a bit of a silly question: Probably less instructions on how to tell men who harbor suicidal thoughts to "man up" and expendability of coloured soldiers. By the way, was Che really really racist?
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Jan 13, 2015 17:21
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FAUXTON posted:Yeah, that's probably a better way to look at it - I was thinking of the cultural scaling regarding communicating (I've been writing a lot of global training stuff for work) and the non-verbal bias in emotional rapport, e.g. the avoiding of those topics is in a way apologizing and acknowledging their horror. "Would Japan apologize for Imperial-era crimes if they could bring themselves to acknowledge they happened" versus "Are they avoiding acknowledgement as a logical extension of refusing to apologize?" versus Thatcher's ghost still haunting UK politics and the related use of race-based immigration politics as UKIP vehicle. Ultimately, most far right people who deny aspects of history tend to catch themselves making the same argument everywhere - most notably Holocaust deniers - 'We didn't do it, but if we did do it they would have deserved it'. I suspect that the Japanese tendency might be similar in this respect. but it's harder to probe. Japanese culture has a slightly different attitude towards shame than westerners though: it's an extremely important cultural value that people be able to put aside embarrassing incidents and pretend as if they never happened. For something shameful to not only become public knowledge but also be discussed repeatedly as an object of interest is just horrifying to the national manners, particularly if an outsider is looking.
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Jan 13, 2015 17:25
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Nenonen posted:Also the protruding bow MG. Experience showed that the ball mounted gun was hard enough to aim that it was only useful for suppressive fire. With the elimination of the radio operator position, there was no one left to do even that, so the designers figured that spitting some tracers in the vague direction of infantry was good enough.
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Jan 13, 2015 17:32
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JcDent posted:By the way, was Che really really racist? I find that, by most modern U.S./Western standards, most flavors of new world Hispanics are hilariously racist about blacks, Mexicans, indigenous South Americans, and sometimes all three, just for variety. [Anecdotal]
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Jan 13, 2015 17:39
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MrYenko posted:I find that, by most modern U.S./Western standards, most flavors of new world Hispanics are hilariously racist about blacks, Mexicans, indigenous South Americans, and sometimes all three, just for variety. [Anecdotal] He was quite racist at first, as were many Argentinians of the time. But he must have had a change of heart. During the Cuban revolution he took a black pupil and fought amongst blacks, later he married an indigenous woman, made changes in Cuban society for integration, had a black bodyguard, and later led a black guerrilla in Africa. Its common for bigots to have a change of heart once they travel the world. As for racism in Latin America, I grew in the region as an Afro-Hispanic, so I could speak at length about the subject, but this may not be the right thread. Lets just say that colonialism always leads to self hate and racism. Animal fucked around with this message at 17:55 on Jan 13, 2015 |
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Jan 13, 2015 17:51
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Animal posted:He was quite racist at first, as were many Argentinians of the time. But he must have had a change of heart. During the Cuban revolution he took a black pupil and fought amongst blacks, later he married an indigenous woman, made changes in Cuban society for integration, had a black bodyguard, and later led a black guerrilla in Africa. People who have a poor grip on history and real life love to look in to a person's past and yell 'Gotcha!' when they find something inconsistent with their current or later ideas - as if people exist in a vacuum or never change. Lincoln is a figure who is much maligned by historically illiterate people in this way all the time because his attitude to slavery politics changed a lot over time (most serious historical scholarship on him strongly emphasises his capacity for personal growth and change).
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Jan 13, 2015 17:57
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Animal posted:He was quite racist at first, as were many Argentinians of the time.
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Jan 13, 2015 18:07
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Disinterested posted:Ultimately, most far right people who deny aspects of history tend to catch themselves making the same argument everywhere - most notably Holocaust deniers - 'We didn't do it, but if we did do it they would have deserved it'. Much like how many people in the US discuss torture - "WELL IT WAS JUST WATERBOARDING SO IT WASN'T ACTUAL TORTURE BUT EVEN IF IT WAS ACTUAL CRUSHED-TESTICLES TORTURE THOSE <slur>S HAD IT COMING" Never mind that waterboarding is no-poo poo torture and was considered as such for practically ever within US documentation (this has probably changed as a way to retcon torture into not-torture) and it's probably among the least torturous tactic used against detainees as conveyed in the recent CIA report. Just redefine torture to exclude whatever it is you're doing and voila clean conscience. Similarly, redefine rape victims as "comfort women" and the brutal conduct of IJA forces in Okinawa as "the deaths of civilians" and whammo, you can acknowledge war crimes without actually acknowledging them!
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Jan 13, 2015 18:12
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Animal posted:He was quite racist at first, as were many Argentinians of the time. But he must have had a change of heart. During the Cuban revolution he took a black pupil and fought amongst blacks, later he married an indigenous woman, made changes in Cuban society for integration, had a black bodyguard, and later led a black guerrilla in Africa. Well, I FAUXTON posted:Never mind that waterboarding is no-poo poo torture and was considered as such for practically ever within US documentation (this has probably changed as a way to retcon torture into not-torture) and it's probably among the least torturous tactic used against detainees as conveyed in the recent CIA report. Just redefine torture to exclude whatever it is you're doing and voila clean conscience. Similarly, redefine rape victims as "comfort women" and the brutal conduct of IJA forces in Okinawa as "the deaths of civilians" and whammo, you can acknowledge war crimes without actually acknowledging them! "Comfort women" basically refers to sex slaves/forced prostitution AFAIK. Last year, Asahi Shinbun (newspaper) was forced to retract statements about their existence. drat you, Abe!
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Jan 13, 2015 18:21
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JcDent posted:"Comfort women" basically refers to sex slaves/forced prostitution AFAIK. Last year, Asahi Shinbun (newspaper) was forced to retract statements about their existence. drat you, Abe! Yep. And there was a legit climbdown from the previous apology - so things are are sort of getting worse. Wikipedia's article on it is pretty good: quote:In the final agreement Tokyo provided an $800 million aid and low-interest loan package over 10 years.[93] In 1994, the Japanese government set up the Asian Women's Fund (AWF) to distribute additional compensation to South Korea, the Philippines, Taiwan, the Netherlands, and Indonesia.[94] Sixty one Korean, 13 Taiwanese, 211 Filipino, and 79 Dutch former comfort women were provided with a signed apology from the then prime minister Tomiichi Murayama, stating "As Prime Minister of Japan, I thus extend anew my most sincere apologies and remorse to all the women who underwent immeasurable and painful experiences and suffered incurable physical and psychological wounds as comfort women."[95][96] However, many former Korean comfort women rejected the compensations because of pressure from a non-government organization known as the Korean Council for the Women Drafted for Military Sexual Slavery by Japan, or "Chongdaehyop", and because of media pressure. Eventually, 61 former Korean comfort women accepted 5 million yen (approx. $42,000[98]) per person from the AWF along with the signed apology, while 142 others received funds from the government of Korea. quote:In 2007, the surviving sex slaves wanted an apology from the Japanese government. Shinzō Abe, the prime minister at the time, stated on March 1, 2007, that there was no evidence that the Japanese government had kept sex slaves, even though the Japanese government had already admitted the use of coercion in 1993. On March 27 the Japanese parliament issued an official apology.[109] On February 20, 2014, Chief Cabinet Secretary Yoshihide Suga said that the Japanese government may reconsider the study and the apology.[110] However, Prime Minister Abe clarified on March 14, 2014 that he had no intention of renouncing or altering it.[111]
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Jan 13, 2015 18:27
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Disinterested posted:Nah, Japanese right wingers are a lot more racist, and there is way more open daily racism for foreigners in Japanese society. It's not even close with a Western country from that perspective. Added to that, most people in the British right don't tend to question the historicity of things like the bombing of Dresden, though they might argue it is justifiable. That is quite different from Japanese right wingers who claim that equivalent events like the rape of Nanking never happened. Has British government apologized the bombing of Dresden?
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Jan 13, 2015 18:53
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