UKMT January '15 - We're gonna party like it's 1985

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > UKMT January '15 - We're gonna party like it's 1985

Rude Dude With Tude: Apr 19, 2007; Your President approves this text.

loving hell don't talk about pay it's further rubbing it in that I've made a huge mistake by working in telly but would have to retrain to do anything else (and have no �� and it's hard)

Anyway good news, privatisation works! part 2849237 http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-30785623

BBC News posted:

Sellafield firm loses �9bn clean-up contract

The government has stripped private consortium Nuclear Management Partners (NMP) of a �9bn contract to clean up the nuclear waste site at Sellafield. It follows recommendations from the Nuclear Decommissioning Authority (NDA) to change the way the site was managed.

The Public Accounts Committee and the National Audit Office have both accused NMP of cost overruns and delays. Energy and Climate Change Secretary Ed Davey said Sellafield Ltd would now become a subsidiary of the NDA. He said Sellafield "will continue to be led by a world class team, who will be appointed and governed by a newly-constituted board of the site licence company".

"The new model will, in due course, see a strategic partner appointed by Sellafield Ltd, to strengthen the programme management and commercial capability at the site, as well as playing a key role in managing capital projects and contracts," he added. "This approach is recognised as best practice in other major projects, such as Crossrail and the Olympics." NMP, which includes British and French energy firms Amec and Areva as well as US engineer URS, has run the site for more than six years. Mr Davey said transition to the new arrangements would take 15 months.

Despite criticism of the way the site was managed, NMP's contract was extended for a further five years in 2013. Shadow energy minister Tom Greatrex said: "After serious criticism from the National Audit Office and Public Accounts Committee, the sudden cancellation of this contract leaves Tory ministers with serious questions about the decision making process and use of taxpayers' money." NMP was originally granted the decommissioning job in 2008, and employs 10,000 workers on the site.

The GMB union welcomed the news. Its national secretary for energy, Gary Smith, said: "We said the contract should not have been extended in 2013. The government needs to be held to account. Hundreds of millions of pounds of taxpayers money has been squandered." The Nuclear Decommissioning Authority (NDA), which awarded the contract, last year increased its estimate for cleaning up the UK's nuclear sites by 7% to �110bn over the next 120 years, with Sellafield accounting for the vast bulk of that. But NMP general manager Iain Irving said since the contract was extended in 2013 "the site has enjoyed one of its best ever periods of performance and progress". "Importantly, over the last two years, we have consecutively achieved the site's best overall safety records," he added.

# ? Jan 13, 2015 14:55

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# ? Jun 8, 2024 17:47

Zephro: Nov 23, 2000; I suppose I could part with one and still be feared...

^^ Hey don't sweat it. Turns out we're going to privatise all the things:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/nhs/11290363/Hospitals-and-fire-services-to-be-run-outside-the-public-sector.html

quote:

Hospitals and fire services will be run �outside the public sector� as the Conservatives dramatically shrink the state and cut costs, a senior minister has disclosed.
Francis Maude, the Cabinet Office minister, told The Telegraph that services could be handed over to mutual companies owned by employers and other non-state bodies.

He also warned that public sector jobs and wages would have to fall sharply to ensure the Government lives within its means.

George Osborne, the Chancellor, has set out plans to reduce public spending to its lowest level since the 1930s, something which senior Conservatives believe will require fundamental changes in the role and responsibilities of the state.

Mr Maude, who is drawing up plans for �20 billion of Whitehall savings by 2020, said that with the exception of defence and policing, every function of the state could potentially be done outside the public sector.

# ? Jan 13, 2015 15:07

Guavanaut: Nov 27, 2009; Looking At Them Tittys
1969 - 1998; Toilet Rascal

Why leave out defence and policing?

If you're just going to run the country for the wealthy, at least do it honestly.

# ? Jan 13, 2015 15:09

Zephro: Nov 23, 2000; I suppose I could part with one and still be feared...

Guavanaut posted:

Why leave out defence and policing?

If you're just going to run the country for the wealthy, at least do it honestly.

You gotta privatise them last, when the riots have been put down.

# ? Jan 13, 2015 15:12

Seaside Loafer: Feb 7, 2012; Waiting for a train, I needed a shit. You won't bee-lieve what happened next

Zephro posted:

^^ Hey don't sweat it. Turns out we're going to privatise all the things:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/nhs/11290363/Hospitals-and-fire-services-to-be-run-outside-the-public-sector.html
He also warned that public sector jobs and wages would have to fall sharply to ensure the Government lives within its means.

How is that actually possible, public sector wages are already poo poo, there has to be something more to that statement, it has to be taken out of context somehow.

# ? Jan 13, 2015 15:21

Zephro: Nov 23, 2000; I suppose I could part with one and still be feared...

Seaside Loafer posted:

How is that actually possible, public sector wages are already poo poo, there has to be something more to that statement, it has to be taken out of context somehow.

quote:

Mr Maude admitted: �We won�t make the savings that have been set out without further reductions in headcount and pay bill.�
He said this would not necessarily spell blanket pay cuts, but suggested that it was a mistake to think the state should compete with private sector employers on pay.

# ? Jan 13, 2015 15:22

Rush Limbo: Sep 5, 2005; its with a full house

Public sectors should probably be the best paying sectors because they're sort of the things that keep society going, you know? If every doctor or nurse went on strike tomorrow, things would be in such poo poo there would be riots on the street.

If management consultants went on strike nobody would notice, or even care.

# ? Jan 13, 2015 15:27

Guavanaut: Nov 27, 2009; Looking At Them Tittys
1969 - 1998; Toilet Rascal

Seaside Loafer posted:

How is that actually possible, public sector wages are already poo poo, there has to be something more to that statement, it has to be taken out of context somehow.

Context:

# ? Jan 13, 2015 15:28

Prince John: Jun 20, 2006; Oh, poppycock! Female bandits?

Zephro posted:

^^ Hey don't sweat it. Turns out we're going to privatise all the things:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/nhs/11290363/Hospitals-and-fire-services-to-be-run-outside-the-public-sector.html

Didn't Tony Benn try and introduce something similar during his tenure? Not for profit cooperatives run by the employees are a very different kettle of fish to handing services over to a profit making corporation owned by separate shareholders.

Seaside Loafer posted:

How is that actually possible, public sector wages are already poo poo, there has to be something more to that statement, it has to be taken out of context somehow.

Public sector wages are ever so slightly higher than private sector on average, and a fifth higher once you factor in the value of pension entitlements, according to the first study to compare the impact of both.

quote:

Workers in the state sector received a fifth more than counterparts at private firms when pensions were factored in, according research published by the Institute of Fiscal Studies. The think tank said teachers, doctors, nurses and other state employees received an average of �28,000 a year, while private workers received �27,000.

However, generous pensions added �6,000 to public workers' pay, boosting the total to �34,000 a year. By contrast, the pensions offered to private workers added just �2,000 a year, giving �29,000 overall, the report found.

The �5,000 gap was worth almost a fifth of the salary of someone in the private sector.

Experts said the figures indicated state staff were "on an incredibly good deal" because the vast majority still had generous final salary pensions. Malcolm McLean of pension consultants Barnett Waddingham said: "Public sector pensions are streets ahead of those in the private because they have such valuable pensions, and the gap is growing."

The IFS said just 12 per cent of private sector workers had a final salary pension today, down from 38 per cent in 1997.

By contrast, almost all employees in the public sector had a pension worth a percentage of their salary, rather than the growth of money invested in stock market.

The study took into account age, region and education to create a fair comparison between similar workers in the state and private sectors.

# ? Jan 13, 2015 15:40

Seaside Loafer: Feb 7, 2012; Waiting for a train, I needed a shit. You won't bee-lieve what happened next

Oh sorry will admit didn't actually read article before posting was just so incensed that clicked button. After reading it ... sorry again ... while I guess having a mutual or whatever is better than outright privatisation I just don't understand the logic behind the thinking. The profit motive has no place in essential services unless you can somehow prove that its magically more efficient which after 15 years of demonstration has shown it isn't.

Ive said it before and I'll say it again, best crisps, go ahead capitalism, go nuts, the market will decide, but essential services, its just silly. You are at the best adding an unnecessary layer of complexity, these things will have to be monitored/bailed out etc.

On a point of debate does anyone know of a government service that has successfully been tendered out? I would argue things like catering and cleaning are probably quite happy being in the hands of private companies.

# ? Jan 13, 2015 15:41

Phoon: Apr 23, 2010

I'm suspicious of privatised cleaning in hospitals, seems too important and thorough a job for a profit driven entity to be doing.

Privatised cleaning in other government buildings etc is ok, will definitely cost less, but part of the reason it costs less is that the workers are paid worse which is not really a good thing for the country in the long term. OTOH there's definitely real other savings for an outside company since they'll be using the same employees and equipment for multiple locations etc

IMO government should use outside cleaning companies everywhere but hospitals, but should only use companies that pay their employees a living wage.

# ? Jan 13, 2015 15:54

Jedit: Dec 10, 2011; Proudly supporting vanilla legends 1994-2014

Seaside Loafer posted:

On a point of debate does anyone know of a government service that has successfully been tendered out? I would argue things like catering and cleaning are probably quite happy being in the hands of private companies.

Sodexo do catering for a lot of councils in Scotland. I wouldn't say they lack success, but it's more expensive to eat there now.

# ? Jan 13, 2015 15:56

ReV VAdAUL: Oct 3, 2004; I'm WILD about
WILDMAN

Prince John posted:

Didn't Tony Benn try and introduce something similar during his tenure? Not for profit cooperatives run by the employees are a very different kettle of fish to handing services over to a profit making corporation owned by separate shareholders.

quote:

But instead of �red-blooded commercial for-profit outsourcing� to big companies, services could be transferred to a range of �mutual, joint venture or hybrid� companies run by their staff. He said it would �give flexibility to evolve services around the needs of the user, which makes for a better outcome and saves money�.

The National Health Service is already experimenting with transferring some �acute� services out of the public sector. Hinchingbrooke hospital in Cambridgeshire is run by a company jointly owned by its staff and private investors.

Does not sound like a Bennite workers co-operative. Looking into it turns out that Hitchingbrooke is owned by Circle. Circle are a "joint venture" where staff own 49% of the company and the other 51% is owned by... a hedge fund.

# ? Jan 13, 2015 15:58

Disinterested: Jun 29, 2011; You look like you're still raking it in. Still killing 'em?

LemonDrizzle posted:

How many of those guys are now in their 5th year of postdoc'ing and busy hating life?

A lot of the guys I know pissed off to the States or South Africa for more cash and a cushier life. The rest are hating life, apart from a couple who got good posts.

# ? Jan 13, 2015 16:34

Rolled Cabbage: Sep 3, 2006

Phoon posted:

I'm suspicious of privatised cleaning in hospitals, seems too important and thorough a job for a profit driven entity to be doing.

Privatised cleaning in other government buildings etc is ok, will definitely cost less, but part of the reason it costs less is that the workers are paid worse which is not really a good thing for the country in the long term. OTOH there's definitely real other savings for an outside company since they'll be using the same employees and equipment for multiple locations etc

IMO government should use outside cleaning companies everywhere but hospitals, but should only use companies that pay their employees a living wage.

They have already managed to cock this up embarrassingly badly with the police. At least one police force has been in a situation where the private cleaning company was just not sending workers/refusing to clean etc., leading to reports by independent monitoring agencies. Similar to the ALS court language fiasco where they can't make their money back if they actually send interpreters to all the courts...so they just don't.

# ? Jan 13, 2015 17:06

TinTower: Apr 21, 2010; You don't have to 8e a good person to 8e a hero.

Enjoy posted:

These chaps seem pretty cool http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Health_Action_Party

There's a parliamentary candidate from them in my constituency, I think I will vote for him. Their policies look like old Labour http://nhap.org/our-policies/economy/

NHA only have a shot of winning in Wyre Forest, where their co-leader was an independent MP for nine years. Sadly.

# ? Jan 13, 2015 18:05

Disinterested: Jun 29, 2011; You look like you're still raking it in. Still killing 'em?

Phoon posted:

Privatised cleaning in other government buildings etc is ok, will definitely cost less, but part of the reason it costs less is that the workers are paid worse which is not really a good thing for the country in the long term. OTOH there's definitely real other savings for an outside company since they'll be using the same employees and equipment for multiple locations etc

They're not necessarily paid less for their work as such, some of them might be being paid on zero-hour contracts and have more than one job, depending on the provider.

# ? Jan 13, 2015 18:07

Seaside Loafer: Feb 7, 2012; Waiting for a train, I needed a shit. You won't bee-lieve what happened next

Jedit posted:

Sodexo do catering for a lot of councils in Scotland. I wouldn't say they lack success, but it's more expensive to eat there now.

Anecdote time. I did software work for a blair era military PFI contract. It was a 'success' in that the thing was delivered on time and signed off and the company made a fortune but corners were cut like mad. The program manager basically spent his whole time pouring over legal documents to make sure it got signed off where he could have been adding his experience to the actual production, the man was a very experienced software engineer but was basically reduced to being some sort of amateur lawyer.

My point here is I don't understand why the MOD couldn't have just hired the people they needed and done it themselves instead of the whole tender/bidding bullshit, they had the needed infrastructure and I know for a fact the initial requirements were not met but worked around through legalise

All that was accomplished by making this thing a PFI was this added layer of complexity, a 10 zillion page contract, loads of time/effort/money spent on bullshit instead of actually doing the job. But hey what do I know im just a muppet.

# ? Jan 13, 2015 18:23

Renaissance Robot: Oct 10, 2010; Bite my furry metal ass

Cameron's blathering about legacy of debt the other day made me think: isn't it about time for someone to be asking what the point is?

It was easy enough to handwave away before because debt is bad etc, but now they're talking about Britain PLC being "in the black" it feels like it should be a really obvious question to ask "okay, once we're turning a profit, what are we going to spend it on?"

Not to mention that it's well past time for people to be asking whether making a profit should even be on the agenda for a nation, especially considering we can literally print our own money (arguably the most desirable position for any capitalist, considering how often good products are compared to it), but still.

# ? Jan 13, 2015 18:31

baka kaba: Jul 19, 2003; PLEASE ASK ME, THE SELF-PROFESSED NO #1 PAUL CATTERMOLE FAN IN THE SOMETHING AWFUL S-CLUB 7 MEGATHREAD, TO NAME A SINGLE SONG BY HIS EXCELLENT NU-METAL SIDE PROJECT, SKUA, AND IF I CAN'T PLEASE TELL ME TO
EAT SHIT

ReV VAdAUL posted:

Does not sound like a Bennite workers co-operative. Looking into it turns out that Hitchingbrooke is owned by Circle. Circle are a "joint venture" where staff own 49% of the company and the other 51% is owned by... a hedge fund.

Well he did say 'owned by employers', I think Prince John misread it

Prince John posted:

Public sector wages are ever so slightly higher than private sector on average, and a fifth higher once you factor in the value of pension entitlements, according to the first study to compare the impact of both.

Call me crazy but I can't see any 'average earnings' numbers in either the report or the briefing notes on the contribution of pensions. It's pretty much about differentials and long-term trends. Telegraph dude needs to show his working on this, to be honest

# ? Jan 13, 2015 18:33

JFairfax: Oct 23, 2008; by FactsAreUseless

Renaissance Robot posted:

it feels like it should be a really obvious question to ask "okay, once we're turning a profit, what are we going to spend it on?"

Tax cuts... durrrr

# ? Jan 13, 2015 18:34

Disinterested: Jun 29, 2011; You look like you're still raking it in. Still killing 'em?

Renaissance Robot posted:

Cameron's blathering about legacy of debt the other day made me think: isn't it about time for someone to be asking what the point is?

It was easy enough to handwave away before because debt is bad etc, but now they're talking about Britain PLC being "in the black" it feels like it should be a really obvious question to ask "okay, once we're turning a profit, what are we going to spend it on?"

Not to mention that it's well past time for people to be asking whether making a profit should even be on the agenda for a nation, especially considering we can literally print our own money (arguably the most desirable position for any capitalist, considering how often good products are compared to it), but still.

He knows like everyone else that you only get rid of these big debts by inflating them away or outgrowing them, reducing their size relative to GDP. A lot of his austerity chat is just designed to stop the bond market making GBS threads a brick, I think.

# ? Jan 13, 2015 18:34

Renaissance Robot: Oct 10, 2010; Bite my furry metal ass

Ddraig posted:

Public sectors should probably be the best paying sectors because they're sort of the things that keep society going, you know? If every doctor or nurse went on strike tomorrow, things would be in such poo poo there would be riots on the street.

Which is why they're trying to make it absurdly difficult to do both effectively and legally.

# ? Jan 13, 2015 18:34

TinTower: Apr 21, 2010; You don't have to 8e a good person to 8e a hero.

Hey guys, I've just found some Islamist terrorists who spend hundreds of pounds per year to prevent GCHQ from reading online communications in transit.

�Oh.

# ? Jan 13, 2015 18:43

Microplastics: Jul 6, 2007; It's what's for dinner.

What happens if you click on "Volunteer" on the Conservative Party homepage? I daren't try myself.

# ? Jan 13, 2015 18:48

LemonDrizzle: Mar 28, 2012; neoliberal shithead

KKKlean Energy posted:

What happens if you click on "Volunteer" on the Conservative Party homepage? I daren't try myself.

IDS materializes from the darkness behind you and whispers sweet nothings in your ear

# ? Jan 13, 2015 18:50

baka kaba: Jul 19, 2003; PLEASE ASK ME, THE SELF-PROFESSED NO #1 PAUL CATTERMOLE FAN IN THE SOMETHING AWFUL S-CLUB 7 MEGATHREAD, TO NAME A SINGLE SONG BY HIS EXCELLENT NU-METAL SIDE PROJECT, SKUA, AND IF I CAN'T PLEASE TELL ME TO
EAT SHIT

Renaissance Robot posted:

Cameron's blathering about legacy of debt the other day made me think: isn't it about time for someone to be asking what the point is?

It was easy enough to handwave away before because debt is bad etc, but now they're talking about Britain PLC being "in the black" it feels like it should be a really obvious question to ask "okay, once we're turning a profit, what are we going to spend it on?"

Not to mention that it's well past time for people to be asking whether making a profit should even be on the agenda for a nation, especially considering we can literally print our own money (arguably the most desirable position for any capitalist, considering how often good products are compared to it), but still.

I keep mentioning this, but running a surplus is literally taking money out of the private economy. It's additional taxation for the sake of it. It's saying 'we, the government, can make better use of this capital than you, the private sector, can'. The whole thing is anathema to conservatives in general, which is why I don't believe for a second they actually intend to run a surplus.

They'll do exactly what conservatives want to do - reduce the state and the public sector to a shadow of its former self, through cuts and privatisation, until it's cheap to run because there's nothing left. Then they'll say 'we did it everyone, we beat the deficit - we don't need all this tax revenue now, tax cuts for everyone!' Serco and Circle and friends will run whatever services the government deems necessary for the country, everything else will be a distant memory that future generations will laugh hollowly at. Grandpa, you and your stories! Guaranteed healthcare without even having to pay when you need it? Someone's been at the Cyberludes again

e- I like how all the action buttons on that Tory site are Labour red. I'm in!

# ? Jan 13, 2015 18:50

Kegluneq: Feb 18, 2011; Mr President, the physical reality of Prime Minister Corbyn is beyond your range of apprehension. If you'll just put on these PINKOVISION glasses...

So Jack Munroe did a thing in the Guardian today on crisp sandwiches, and mentioned her favoured choice of filling. Naturally, I had to ask:

Hrm. Thread Hero/History's Greatest Monster status confirmed, or is Lib Dem fence sitting itself an automatic fail now?

KKKlean Energy posted:

What happens if you click on "Volunteer" on the Conservative Party homepage? I daren't try myself.

You do the same job you're doing now, but for free. Your sacrifice to Big Society is appreciated.

# ? Jan 13, 2015 19:08

thehustler: Apr 17, 2004; I am very curious about this little crescendo

Out of interest why did you censor your name there?

# ? Jan 13, 2015 19:16

Kegluneq: Feb 18, 2011; Mr President, the physical reality of Prime Minister Corbyn is beyond your range of apprehension. If you'll just put on these PINKOVISION glasses...

thehustler posted:

Out of interest why did you censor your name there?

Because I'm an idiot who thought I probably should do? I use my real name on my profile but it's not like it would be hard to trace. Twitter etiquette is hard okay

Edit:

stickyfngrdboy posted:

What good would that do, if anyone cared enough they'd follow the timeline on the other party

Basically this.

Kegluneq fucked around with this message at 19:51 on Jan 13, 2015

# ? Jan 13, 2015 19:25

Metrication: Dec 12, 2010; Raskin had one problem: Jobs regarded him as an insufferable theorist or, to use Jobs's own more precise terminology, "a shithead who sucks".

Seaside Loafer posted:

My point here is I don't understand why the MOD couldn't have just hired the people they needed and done it themselves instead of the whole tender/bidding bullshit, they had the needed infrastructure and I know for a fact the initial requirements were not met but worked around through legalise

This is pretty much what happened with gov.uk, outsourcing was dumped for a dedicated office of talented staff which in turn saved them millions and created a very successful (probably the most successful government IT projects this country has ever had) and extremely well designed product for which they have since won awards for.

# ? Jan 13, 2015 19:38

forkboy84: Jun 13, 2012; Corgis love bread. And Puro

Kegluneq posted:

Because I'm an idiot who thought I probably should do? I use my real name on my profile but it's not like it would be hard to trace. Twitter etiquette is hard okay

Yeah, I mean you left your Twitter username up there. So it seems like you should have hidden that as well?

# ? Jan 13, 2015 19:45

stickyfngrdboy: Oct 21, 2010

forkboy84 posted:

Yeah, I mean you left your Twitter username up there. So it seems like you should have hidden that as well?

What good would that do, if anyone cared enough they'd follow the timeline on the other party

# ? Jan 13, 2015 19:48

tooterfish: Jul 13, 2013

KKKlean Energy posted:

What happens if you click on "Volunteer" on the Conservative Party homepage? I daren't try myself.

They're all like "hey there, welcome!" to your face, but you're secretly flagged as a socialist on their database.

# ? Jan 13, 2015 19:53

Pissflaps: Oct 20, 2002; by VideoGames

A loving article in the Guardian about crisp loving sandwiches.

I like salad cream in mine mmm.

# ? Jan 13, 2015 20:07

communism bitch: Apr 24, 2009

Pissflaps posted:

A loving article in the Guardian about crisp loving sandwiches.

I like salad cream in mine mmm.

dirty bastard

# ? Jan 13, 2015 20:11

baka kaba: Jul 19, 2003; PLEASE ASK ME, THE SELF-PROFESSED NO #1 PAUL CATTERMOLE FAN IN THE SOMETHING AWFUL S-CLUB 7 MEGATHREAD, TO NAME A SINGLE SONG BY HIS EXCELLENT NU-METAL SIDE PROJECT, SKUA, AND IF I CAN'T PLEASE TELL ME TO
EAT SHIT

Pissflaps posted:

A loving article in the Guardian about crisp loving sandwiches.

I like salad cream in mine mmm.

Perhaps sir would like to learn how to make toast?

http://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2015/jan/09/how-to-make-toast-the-jamie-oliver-way

# ? Jan 13, 2015 20:16

feedmegin: Jul 30, 2008

baka kaba posted:

Then they'll say 'we did it everyone, we beat the deficit - we don't need all this tax revenue now, tax cuts for everyone!'

I doubt this bit somehow.

# ? Jan 13, 2015 20:34

feedmegin: Jul 30, 2008

OwlFancier posted:

I thought they shut it down a few decades ago? Otherwise I'd have mentioned it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lincolnshire_Poacher_(numbers_station) says 2008. Of course, that is just Wikipedia :tinfoil:

# ? Jan 13, 2015 20:40

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# ? Jun 8, 2024 17:47

thehustler: Apr 17, 2004; I am very curious about this little crescendo

feedmegin posted:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lincolnshire_Poacher_(numbers_station) says 2008. Of course, that is just Wikipedia

I haven't heard it in years on the usual frequencies.

# ? Jan 13, 2015 20:43

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