|
Well, a bunch of the leaders in the march brutally oppose freedom of speech
|
#
?
Jan 12, 2015 10:21
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 28, 2024 16:36 |
|
|
Dolash posted:I don't normally weigh in on the UK cartoons, but I actually found that Rowson a bit eye-rolling. Unless there's some story I'm missing where the government delegations at the march were assholes it's perfectly reasonable that there'd be a lot of security for such a march, since it'd be a natural target even without world leaders showing up. The cartoon isn't really conveying what's so objectionable about political leaders standing in solidarity after an attack on freedom of expression - would it have been more respectful if they'd all stayed home?
|
|
#
?
Jan 12, 2015 11:04
|
|
|
Dolash posted:I don't normally weigh in on the UK cartoons, but I actually found that Rowson a bit eye-rolling. Unless there's some story I'm missing where the government delegations at the march were assholes it's perfectly reasonable that there'd be a lot of security for such a march, since it'd be a natural target even without world leaders showing up. The cartoon isn't really conveying what's so objectionable about political leaders standing in solidarity after an attack on freedom of expression - would it have been more respectful if they'd all stayed home? It'd be vastly more respectful if they weren't such loving hypocrites, for one; it all boils down to the "right" sort of free speech.
|
|
#
?
Jan 12, 2015 13:43
|
|
|
The Rowson comic strikes a chord with me. It's hard to imagine any other circumstances by which the leaders of the free world, and the French state in particular, would have identified with an anarchic, scatological rag like Charlie Hebdo. They're about as far away from being Charlie as you could get, and yet there they are. The sentiment of solidarity might be genuine, but it's still jarring to see.
|
|
#
?
Jan 12, 2015 14:12
|
|
|
Just from a British perspective it's hard see how Cameron can fly to France in the name of free speech, while at the same time dusting off the mass surveillance policies he keeps trying to push thru at every chance he gets.
|
|
#
?
Jan 12, 2015 14:51
|
|
|
Galaspar posted:The Rowson comic strikes a chord with me. It's hard to imagine any other circumstances by which the leaders of the free world, and the French state in particular, would have identified with an anarchic, scatological rag like Charlie Hebdo. They're about as far away from being Charlie as you could get, and yet there they are. The sentiment of solidarity might be genuine, but it's still jarring to see. For anyone interested, here is an interview with one of the surviving members. He explains what Charlie Hebdo was all about, and what he thinks about the current response. tldr: He basically agrees with you and Rowson.
|
|
#
?
Jan 12, 2015 15:06
|
|
|
Also quite poignant when you consider why Charlie Hebdo was founded in the first place. The founders' previous magazine, Hari-kari, was shut down by the French government for making a joke about de Gaulle immediately after his death. Free speech about religious figures might be acceptable, but national heroes (in the 1970s at least) were a whole other issue.
|
|
#
?
Jan 12, 2015 15:12
|
|
|
Cloud Potato posted:Express:
|
|
#
?
Jan 12, 2015 15:27
|
|
"Charlie - I think so"
|
Zephro posted:Dave can only get up in the morning thanks to a massive infusion of uppers 
|
|
#
?
Jan 12, 2015 15:44
|
|
|
Dolash posted:I don't normally weigh in on the UK cartoons, but I actually found that Rowson a bit eye-rolling. Unless there's some story I'm missing where the government delegations at the march were assholes it's perfectly reasonable that there'd be a lot of security for such a march, since it'd be a natural target even without world leaders showing up. The cartoon isn't really conveying what's so objectionable about political leaders standing in solidarity after an attack on freedom of expression - would it have been more respectful if they'd all stayed home? It's a play on the motto liberté, égalité, fraternité, and how politicians who are often outright hostile to these ideals are showboating and exploiting what's happened for their own agendas. So you've got politicians claiming to stand for liberty, surrounded by the state security and intelligence apparatus they're developing and deploying against their own citizens. They're standing together in the spotlight, an elite group separated from the people they claim to stand with (so no fraternity). And of course there's equality forgotten in the background, which needs no explaining eh (and I'm guessing that's two of the Charlie cartoonists holding that sign up?) Personally, I think yes it would have been more respectful if political leaders didn't all fly in to bandwagon on an event like this for their Machiavellian reasons
|
|
#
?
Jan 12, 2015 15:55
|
|
|
JoylessJester posted:Just from a British perspective it's hard see how Cameron can fly to France in the name of free speech, while at the same time dusting off the mass surveillance policies he keeps trying to push thru at every chance he gets. There's nothing contradictory about mass surveillance policies and liberal values; they just support freedom of speech more when it's exercised into this waiting police radio-mic is all.
|
|
#
?
Jan 12, 2015 16:21
|
|
|
We probably don't need half the threads of D&D to be debating the Charlie Hebdo shooting so I'll let it drop. I suppose the cartoon at least makes some sense, particularly if it's in line with the opinion(s) of the surviving staff of Charlie Hebdo, though I still don't agree with its message.
|
|
#
?
Jan 12, 2015 18:36
|
|
|
Guardian: "Steve Bell on David Cameron's deficit speech – Prime minister takes decision not to renew his call for EU migrants to be stopped from coming to the UK if they do not have a job" Yesterday's Telegraph:  Independent:  Apology for 'Muslim Birmingham' Fox News claim Express:  Commuter train from Brighton to London Victoria NEVER on time for whole of last year
|
|
#
?
Jan 13, 2015 01:42
|
|
|
Dolash posted:We probably don't need half the threads of D&D to be debating the Charlie Hebdo shooting so I'll let it drop. I suppose the cartoon at least makes some sense, particularly if it's in line with the opinion(s) of the surviving staff of Charlie Hebdo, though I still don't agree with its message. Why would it have to be in line with the opinions of the remaining staff of Charlie Hebdo? Out of some faux respect or something? It's a criticism of world leaders in that they are massive hyprocrites (https://twitter.com/Palestinianism/status/554647434966867969). Also the entire thing was staged anyway https://twitter.com/EnaLolena/status/554634868039385088 Don't say some nonsense about not wanting a debate (in a D&D thread of all places) when you missed the point of the cartoon and then had it pointed out to you. You even seemed to miss the point of "l'etat, c'est charlie" which is a play on "l'etat, c'est moi" (I am the state). BastardySkull fucked around with this message at 08:39 on Jan 13, 2015 |
|
#
?
Jan 13, 2015 08:35
|
|
|
The first time a political cartoon's made me laugh (except for incredulous and/or pitying laughter at Ted Rall) for a few years now. 
|
|
#
?
Jan 13, 2015 08:46
|
|
|
 It also appears that the world leaders were separated from the marchers (feet; top) so Rowson pretty much drew it how it was
|
|
#
?
Jan 13, 2015 08:57
|
|
|
BastardySkull posted:Why would it have to be in line with the opinions of the remaining staff of Charlie Hebdo? Out of some faux respect or something? It's a criticism of world leaders in that they are massive hyprocrites (https://twitter.com/Palestinianism/status/554647434966867969). Okay then, if we do want to get into it, the comic falling in line with the staff of Charlie Hebdo's opinion on the matter merely meant that Rowson's comic had a stronger message (I thought, anyway) since it was echoing and reinforcing existing critique rather than being a complete gut-reaction he had to the mere sight of world leaders gathered in one place for any reason. And that was the core of my complaint. Yes, I did recognize "l'etat, c'est charlie" and I knew it was meant to reference Louis XIV's statement, but it was hard to connect that jab to the march beyond a boilerplate critique of world leaders. It made me ask "Well, what are they supposed to do?" because attending a solidarity rally is already a pretty banal and token show of support and did not strike me as a fresh outrage unless there was some notable twist I'd missed, like their entourages being assholes (or as it appears that they had a staged photo shoot). Look at Thomas's cartoon. It's basically just the same comic from someone else's point of view. baka kaba said the juxtaposition between Thomas and Rowson was brutal, but I actually found it more of a condemnation of the lack of imagination. Go to the American thread and I am 99% sure there's a comic from some Conservative cartoonist critiquing Obama for not attending the rally by drawing him golfing. Although I will say the fact that the picture was staged with a little crowd separated from the whole is something I hadn't heard, and yeah, that strengthens the critique considerably although it's not something that was clearly conveyed by the comic. I suppose it might've actually been covered in the Guardian so the intended audience would be better primed for the joke. Between that and the Charlie Hebdo staff's existing criticism I'll say the comic's stronger than I originally thought.
|
|
#
?
Jan 13, 2015 19:18
|
|
|
Exclamation Marx posted:
This was a stupid march. 
Nonsense fucked around with this message at 20:36 on Jan 13, 2015 |
|
#
?
Jan 13, 2015 20:24
|
|
|
Dolash posted:Look at Thomas's cartoon. It's basically just the same comic from someone else's point of view. baka kaba said the juxtaposition between Thomas and Rowson was brutal, but I actually found it more of a condemnation of the lack of imagination. Go to the American thread and I am 99% sure there's a comic from some Conservative cartoonist critiquing Obama for not attending the rally by drawing him golfing. But the differences between the two are why Rowson's made Thomas's look so bad. They're both effectively depicting the same scene, except Thomas's is some bland, painfully naive 'we are the world' image - basically a cartoon depicting the PR fantasy at face value. Rowson took that imagery and not only represented it more realistically (see photos of the staging), he threw in a bunch of metaphors challenging this fantasy narrative and pointing out the sheer hypocrisy and political cynicism involved. He's basically peeling back the veneer of what's meant to be an iconic publicity event and casting that image in a different light. That's why he's a great cartoonist and why Thomas is a guy who draws pictures badly
|
|
#
?
Jan 13, 2015 20:40
|
|
|
I don't know how groundbreaking it is to draw a bunch of world leaders in cynical foul caricature, that's how Rowson always draws them and there's probably some Express reader who'd have the exact opposite reaction and think Thomas is capturing the solidarity of the moment while Rowson's engaged in the usual reflexive hatemongering. Rowson's a pretty great cartoonist and I like his more imaginative stuff. It's also a bit harsh of me to criticize him for lacking creativity while a thousand well-meaning cartoonists produce very similar tribute cartoons involving pencils being shot (albeit Rowson's tribute cartoon wasn't that great either). At the very least it's probably a better tribute to Charlie Hebdo by being derisive and satirical even about a march celebrating the magazine.
|
|
#
?
Jan 13, 2015 21:16
|
|
|
Sorry to derail the cartoon chat further, but I don't think it even was that cynical having the political leaders separated from the crowd. It looks like the crowd was still nearby and that picture is intended to emphasise the size of the gap, and given the events of days prior you can imagine there would be something of a focus on security.
|
|
#
?
Jan 13, 2015 22:25
|
|
|
Rowson debating freedom of expression with Will Self: http://www.channel4.com/news/will-self-martin-rowson-cartoon-charlie-hebdo-satire-video
|
|
#
?
Jan 14, 2015 00:17
|
|
|
Dolash posted:I don't know how groundbreaking it is to draw a bunch of world leaders in cynical foul caricature, that's how Rowson always draws them and there's probably some Express reader who'd have the exact opposite reaction and think Thomas is capturing the solidarity of the moment while Rowson's engaged in the usual reflexive hatemongering. In the context of that video and satire targeting people in power, I find it amusing that you think Rowson is engaging in 'reflexive hatemongering' with 'cynical foul cariacture'. Can you even hatemonger against some of the most powerful people in the world, aren't they the most legitimate targets of satire? I'm not familiar with Charlie Hebdo but if it was anything like Private Eye in the UK as some have suggested then these are exactly the types of people it would be satirising every issue, so it would serve as a more apt tribute in that respect than something more saccharine, see the current cover of Charlie Hebdo as evidence that they can be as as edgy as Rownson. As other people in the thread have mentioned, there are plenty of reasons why they might be considered hypocrites or legitimate targets of satire, e.g. David Cameron is now (inevitably) proposing freedom-of-speech restricting legislation (including suggesting that we should do away with encryption). Clapham Omnibus fucked around with this message at 01:29 on Jan 14, 2015 |
|
#
?
Jan 14, 2015 01:25
|
|
|
Dolash posted:It made me ask "Well, what are they supposed to do?" The thing is, they aren't Charlie. Most of those leaders probably do support, in one way or another, bans on free speech. A ton of people over here who would say stupid poo poo like that are being hypocritical too. Whether that limit is bans on flag burning, bans on holocaust denial, bans on mocking de Gaulle's death, bans on Micheal Savage entering the UK or any other poo poo like that. There are probably very few world leaders in that group who actually give a drat about free speech and even fewer who give a drat about Charlie Hebdo.
|
|
#
?
Jan 14, 2015 01:40
|
|
|
Cliff Racer posted:The thing is, they aren't Charlie. Most of those leaders probably do support, in one way or another, bans on free speech. A ton of people over here who would say stupid poo poo like that are being hypocritical too. Whether that limit is bans on flag burning, bans on holocaust denial, bans on mocking de Gaulle's death, bans on Micheal Savage entering the UK or any other poo poo like that. There are probably very few world leaders in that group who actually give a drat about free speech and even fewer who give a drat about Charlie Hebdo. Of course they give a drat (about their poll ratings)
|
|
#
?
Jan 14, 2015 02:06
|
|
|
Guardian: "Steve Bell on Charlie Hebdo – It was standing room only for the emotional Charlie Hebdo press conference on Tuesday afternoon, as the surviving members of the team vowed that the magazine would continue and its spirit would not be broken." Yesterday's Telegraph:  David Cameron accuses Ed Miliband of 'disgusting' attempt to 'weaponise' NHS Telegraph:  UK inflation rate falls to 0.5% in December Independent:  David Cameron says new online data laws needed After Luz. Yesterday's Times:  Times:  Yesterday's Mail:  Mail:  Beagle 2 Mars lander’s remains may have been spotted on red planet Express:  Chairwoman of school governors who had alleged affair with headmaster is one of 'Cameron's Cuties'
|
|
#
?
Jan 14, 2015 02:36
|
|
|
Kill me now
|
|
#
?
Jan 14, 2015 02:41
|
|
|
Crashbee posted:Rowson debating freedom of expression with Will Self: http://www.channel4.com/news/will-self-martin-rowson-cartoon-charlie-hebdo-satire-video Martin Rowson pretty good guy.
|
|
#
?
Jan 14, 2015 02:43
|
|
|
Cloud Potato posted:Express: I love this. They're just flailing limbs around randomly.
|
|
#
?
Jan 14, 2015 03:58
|
|
|
That Times one is so bad it made me laugh out loud when I realised just how stupid of a pun they were going for.
|
|
#
?
Jan 14, 2015 05:09
|
|
|
Clapham Omnibus posted:In the context of that video and satire targeting people in power, I find it amusing that you think Rowson is engaging in 'reflexive hatemongering' with 'cynical foul cariacture'. Can you even hatemonger against some of the most powerful people in the world, aren't they the most legitimate targets of satire? To clarify, I myself am not an Express reader (I'm not even British), I was just emphasizing the equivalency between Thomas's and Rowson's comics by saying they probably also provoked equal-but-opposed reactions from their respective target audiences. Also yeah, the "Le Pen" pun is terrible, especially since he starts saying "the sword" before he stops, so it's not even consistent.
|
|
#
?
Jan 14, 2015 05:20
|
|
|
Rand alPaul posted:Martin Rowson pretty good guy. quote:Will Self, a contemporary thought professor 
|
|
#
?
Jan 14, 2015 09:49
|
|
|
Taciturn Tactician posted:
I assume that as he has the drawing skills of a ten-year-old that his knowledge of what sex is is at about the same level. Cloud Potato posted:Yesterday's Mail: SCARY MUSLIMS ARE EVERYWHERE, THINK OF THE CHILDREN
|
|
#
?
Jan 14, 2015 10:56
|
|
|
The child is terrified by the sudden overreaction, a good cartoon
|
|
#
?
Jan 14, 2015 11:32
|
|
|
Forums Terrorist posted:The child is terrified by the sudden overreaction, a good cartoon Surprisingly so for MAC.
|
|
#
?
Jan 14, 2015 11:54
|
|
|
Coohoolin posted:That Times one is so bad it made me laugh out loud when I realised just how stupid of a pun they were going for. 
|
|
#
?
Jan 14, 2015 12:31
|
|
|
Angepain posted:I assume that as he has the drawing skills of a ten-year-old that his knowledge of what sex is is at about the same level. I'm starting to think that Paul Thomas is actually Vincent Adultman - he may literally be three kids stuffed into a trenchcoat.
|
|
#
?
Jan 14, 2015 12:43
|
|
|
He is three of those tiny immigrants that he draws, stuffed into a trenchcoat.
|
|
#
?
Jan 14, 2015 14:02
|
|
|
Forums Terrorist posted:The child is terrified by the sudden overreaction, a good cartoon I don't even think you're wrong here. Thats how I read it anyway.
|
|
#
?
Jan 14, 2015 15:44
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 28, 2024 16:36 |
|
|
Zephro posted:Will Self tedious windbag: *gets out thesaurus* I'd rather insert a word laboriously keyed out than resort to predictive texting for a - acceptable to some - synonym. *becomes Will Self*
|
|
#
?
Jan 14, 2015 15:54
|
|
