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Most people at the meetups I got to actually like the way I teach games. I approach it like some of the proposals I have to do at work and school. 1. Start with a brief, two or sentences about what the game is all about and how many phases there are/general game flow, followed by how you win in the end game. 2. give an overview of the pieces/tokens/board/cards/etc and each's layout is given a quick explanation. 3. Give an overview of every phase of the game and how they tie together and flow. 4. Start going in depth on each phase and how the pieces all work together. here is where I usually go in depth in the icons and such. this is usually the bulk of the game explanation. 5. reiterate how the game ends and how a players wins. 6. Usually answer any questions player's might have or address things that are unclear. Honestly, almost every time I have done this, people understand just fine and play the game generally error free. I guess it also helps that I sometimes go over how I will explain the rules while I am in the shower and getting ready for work, much like I am getting ready to present a presentation at work. I was able to explain Terra Mystica is less then 10 minutes, and the only person who had any major questions afterward had been loving with his phone the whole time. We all, as a group, decided he would learn as he went along since he had willingly ignored the introduction.
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Jan 14, 2015 21:23
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Gutter Owl posted:Actually, I wouldn't necessarily put it past Larry Roznai (the president of Mayfair Games). He has a notoriously dim view of board game kickstarters, as anyone who's attended his seminars at GTS will attest. Oh no, won't someone please think of the poor middlemen. God forbid enthusiasts get to buy games directly from the people who make them! Edit: My friends and I have become remarkably adept at learning games together - that is, we will crack open a new board game and learn to play it aswe read the rulebook. I've learned how to play Dungeon Lords, Galaxy Trucker (though Vlaada makes this easy), Yggdrasil, Pandemic, and countless other games with people despite us not knowing how to play at the start. Since we all don't know how to play, we're fine when we gently caress up because it's how we all think to play the game. Obviously it slows things down, but eh, I actually enjoy the process. Crucial in this is stuff like a brightly marked SET UP and TURN PHASE thing, so we can step through each bit of the game. Don't know if we'd be able to get through a terrible rulebook like Robinson Crusoe's, though - there'd probably be some serious issues. Morpheus fucked around with this message at 21:28 on Jan 14, 2015 |
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Jan 14, 2015 21:24
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While Kickstarter games present problems with traditional distribution, the much bigger problem they present is that they're usually lovely games cobbled together by people with zero experience.
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Jan 14, 2015 21:30
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Morpheus posted:Oh no, won't someone please think of the poor middlemen. God forbid enthusiasts get to buy games directly from the people who make them! Yeah, you're right, gently caress game store owners.
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Jan 14, 2015 21:31
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My group (where it's usually me teaching) seems to learn best my playing a few "test" turns then starting an actual game. That's probably why they picked up Space Alert so quickly. They actually commented on how much they liked Vlad's introduction of information  Granted we haven't played anything super heavy where the mid/end game phase may be drastically different than the first couple of turns but: Brief overview/win conditions followed by test run has worked pretty well.
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Jan 14, 2015 21:31
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Echophonic posted:Yeah, you're right, gently caress game store owners. Look, I don't dislike them as people, but when a job becomes obsolete, it's not up to the consumers to retard their practices so that others can stay in business. I feel the same about them as I would about milkmen when refrigeration was introduced. Do you feel sorry for Gamestop owners now that downloadable games are more popular? If you really want, you can just buy the game from the developer and then donate an extra percentage of that to your local gaming store.
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Jan 14, 2015 21:52
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quote:But also I'm terrible at explaining games so it's probably my fault. It mostly doesn't matter how bad someone is at teaching, 2 people explaining is almost always worse. If someone tries to "help" me explain a game, I usually just let them finish by themselves because team-teaching is bloody awful for everyone involved. And if someone else is explaining, I'll shut up unless they are actually wrong in an important way (usually means they don't know the rules well enough to be explaining) or until they're absolutely finished and they've missed something important. As to methodology, I think it really depends on the game. There's some games where I think it's best to explain the overall objectives, make new guy go last, and just start playing; they'll figure it out (eg. Lords of Waterdeep, Castles of Burgundy); games like this are often loose enough that they can be legitimately "played to win" on a first try, even if it's not terribly likely. Other games are best with a full, up-front "here's all the rules" (eg. Tash Kalar), with the understanding that new players can fully grasp the rules before they start, even if their actual play is poor. Other games are best if you just say "this is a practice game, don't worry about winning we'll just work through your turns together", and start playing (eg. Mage Knight), with the new player unlikely to get all the rules to start or be competitive. Games like Mage Knight do create problems with some people though - I can't stand people who insist on knowing every single possible rule and variation before they'll start, or who'll complain about something they didn't fully understand part way through their first game (often the real problem here is the "teacher helper" who wants to keep going on "rules you missed" before the first turn). But for the complaining new player, the implied complaint of - "oh, I totally would be winning my first game of Agricola if I'd just known about possibility 1245" - can really ruin a game for everyone. There's lots of games where a full rules explanation (and definitely a "normal tactics" summary) is going to take a lot less time and make a lot more sense if it's done part way through (or after) a casual first play through.
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Jan 14, 2015 21:53
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For those who have played Roads & Boats, is playing with six players a bad idea? May try to get it played next month, and while I'm sure I'd have two others willing to play at least, I want to make sure it'd be fine with six in case anyone else was interested in playing. Also, would it be too overwhelming to throw in the expansion stuff for everyone's first game? I know I'd have to add some of the extra tokens and stuff to accommodate six players if I go that route, but I'm wondering if it'd be a bad idea for a first game since there already seems to be a lot to go over with the base game. e: Also I'm totally a rules interrupter whenever my friend explains games to new people and now that it's getting pointed out I'll probably stop doing it. Mega64 fucked around with this message at 21:59 on Jan 14, 2015 |
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Jan 14, 2015 21:56
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Morpheus posted:Look, I don't dislike them as people, but when a job becomes obsolete, it's not up to the consumers to retard their practices so that others can stay in business. I feel the same about them as I would about milkmen when refrigeration was introduced. Do you feel sorry for Gamestop owners now that downloadable games are more popular? If you really want, you can just buy the game from the developer and then donate an extra percentage of that to your local gaming store. People still get together to play games at your local game store. Gamestop is primarily a used game and pre order retailer. sonatinas fucked around with this message at 22:08 on Jan 14, 2015 |
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Jan 14, 2015 22:00
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Morpheus posted:Look, I don't dislike them as people, but when a job becomes obsolete, it's not up to the consumers to retard their practices so that others can stay in business. I feel the same about them as I would about milkmen when refrigeration was introduced. Do you feel sorry for Gamestop owners now that downloadable games are more popular? If you really want, you can just buy the game from the developer and then donate an extra percentage of that to your local gaming store. There is a large difference between Gamestop and the FLGS. The main one being the FLGS generally provides a space to play and try out games, and is a good location to find other gamers in the area. The thing is the job isn't obsolete, it is changing however, with more of a transition to Board Game and Nerd cafes/bars opening up. (In larger areas). And yes, Ido feel sorry for someone when their livelihood goes away.....we aren't robots. It may have to happen, and it may be inevitable, but you do feel sorry for them (even people who run a gamestop).
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Jan 14, 2015 22:00
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Madmarker posted:There is a large difference between Gamestop and the FLGS. The main one being the FLGS generally provides a space to play and try out games, and is a good location to find other gamers in the area. The thing is the job isn't obsolete, it is changing however, with more of a transition to Board Game and Nerd cafes/bars opening up. (In larger areas). And yes, I do feel sorry for someone when their livelihood goes away.....we aren't robots. It may have to happen, and it may be inevitable, but you do feel sorry for them (even people who run a gamestop). Yeah, I still feel sorry for them. But if I can save $10 buy getting a game from a developer instead of a store, I'm going to go to the developer. Especially if it means bypassing a publisher. I hate publishers, though that's mostly a holdover from my video game media experience. Doesn't help that most of the stores in my area are stupidly overpriced, in some cases charging $20 extra for a game like Space Alert. As for board game cafes, hell yes I am all over those. They provide a service I can not get anywhere else, namely the chance to play board games I may never play otherwise. I typically get the food at them, even if its overpriced, because don't want to be one of those jerks who pay $5 to get in and then stay for 8 hours without buying anything else.
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Jan 14, 2015 22:06
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quote:Yeah, you're right, gently caress game store owners. I'm torn, because I like the game store owners I know... but the good things they provide for me (eg. my FLGS has a Pokemon League I go to with my 6 year old) have become increasingly disconnected with how they make money (selling games). When I was starting in the hobby, it worked out that I could trade "paying higher prices" for the "convenience of seeing all this stuff available, getting advice, and getting the game I want right now". Everybody won. Now that there isn't such a backlog of games I want, and I don't need help picking a game, the trade is "wait an unknown long time to try a new game I want, then pay more for it", for the benefit of "feel like I'm supporting a good store". It doesn't feel sustainable (and, indeed, the store seems to brink on collapse whenever Magic has a dull year). I'd much rather they shifted to a different business model - something more like a board game cafe where "what I get from them" and "how they make money" line up a bit better. Right now they do kind of a half-arse job of the things that matter to me (providing a fun place to try/play games), but I can't really blame them because those things don't make them money (not that anything is providing them all that much money - again, I don't know how the owner has stuck it out for 25+ years). I also have no idea what the economics of a boardgame cafe look like - but if I'm paying money out of a desire to see a business stay afloat, I'd rather that business was actually catering to what I want, rather than having that as an advertising sideline that doesn't get much attention or budget. jmzero fucked around with this message at 22:19 on Jan 14, 2015 |
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Jan 14, 2015 22:15
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Morpheus posted:Oh no, won't someone please think of the poor middlemen. God forbid enthusiasts get to buy games directly from the people who make them! Er, yes. You should think of the middlemen. Those middlemen give you the economy-of-scale you need to keep a tiny cottage industry alive. And designer board games are a tiny cottage industry. If manufacturers had to rely solely on direct sales, Carcassonne would cost $70-80 a box, and BSG would cost maybe $150-200. Let me break it down for you, child. Imagine you've launched just the nifty-keenest board game to ever throw dice at a meeple, and your first print run has sold like gangbusters, possibly due to KS preorders and KS hype. You've got a nice little startup under your feet. Sweet deal, let's do another print run! Okay, even a tiny new print run is going to be 500-1000 units. No legit printer is going to give you the time of day for less units, unless you're the kind of company that can do a sustainable Print On Demand. (And because your name isn't Fantasy Flight, you're not.) And you're not even hitting the discounts until you're brushing 1500-2000 units. So now you've got 500+ boxes sitting on your warehouse. And you're sure as hell not going to move them near as fast as the first run, because the folks who had the big wobbly hard-ons for your game have come, paid, and gone home to towel off. So now you're looking to store these units for a while. There's an extra cost. (And a much higher one than a distributor would be paying for warehousing, by the way.) Likewise, since this run is going to move on a slow drip, you've got to make sure your audience of potential nerd-money donors don't forget that you exist. Gamers are like magpies in ugly comic book t-shirts, and they'll flock to the newest shiny thing in their field of vision. The traditional solution here is to outsource the job to earnest, bearded men behind counters (or at least behind shopping cart software) who will buy a couple copies from you(r distributor), stick it on a bookshelf, and match it to a customer two to four months down the line. But we're too good for middlemen, right? So that means one thing: advertising. Advertising for months after the release, at minimum. As an aside, I work in board game advertising. It's not cheap. So let's say you've done it. Your customer base has managed to remember that you exist, and people are still asking for the game over time. Wonderful. Now you've got to pack and ship those games. And whoops, you declined to establish a relationship with a distributor, who can take shipping crates from you, combine multiple games into larger pallets, and ship your units en masse. Looks like you have to mail each box yourself. That's only like 5x the cost, right? Well, until you factor in the salaries you're paying to your warehouse manager and her packaging line staff and the guy driving the truck to the post office. But it's all worth it, right? You get to connect directly with the customer. All five of them who are still willing to pay the exorbitant sticker price, which you've had to massively inflate to cover all these small scale operating costs. And that little connection is the feeling of a job well done, which will hopefully replace the feeling of food. Morpheus posted:Look, I don't dislike them as people, but when a job becomes obsolete, it's not up to the consumers to retard their practices so that others can stay in business. I feel the same about them as I would about milkmen when refrigeration was introduced. Do you feel sorry for Gamestop owners now that downloadable games are more popular? If you really want, you can just buy the game from the developer and then donate an extra percentage of that to your local gaming store. Did you know that digital content requires surprisingly little in the way of per unit manufacturing, storage, and shipping? Or that milk farms rarely do direct orders these days, preferring to use those filthy "grocery store" middlemen? EDIT: I'm not saying (or rather, Larry Roznai isn't saying) that Kickstarter is bad because "Old Mom and Pop Goober are going to have to close the Goblin's rear end in a top hat Game n' Jerk if you don't throw pity cash at them!" I'm saying that a policy of massive direct sales early on can gut your ability to maintain the long term sales through distro, and a small company runs a real risk of Glory to Rome-ing themselves off a cliff. gutterdaughter fucked around with this message at 22:51 on Jan 14, 2015 |
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Jan 14, 2015 22:20
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enigmahfc posted:Most people at the meetups I got to actually like the way I teach games. I approach it like some of the proposals I have to do at work and school. This (and you) sound really well thought out and well executed.  Morpheus posted:Crucial in this is stuff like a brightly marked SET UP and TURN PHASE thing, so we can step through each bit of the game. Don't know if we'd be able to get through a terrible rulebook like Robinson Crusoe's, though - there'd probably be some serious issues. One of Robinson Crusoe's sins is that is is poorly written (maybe bad translation work?) for what is really a technical document. It is loaded with phrases like "take the matching marker and place it in the appropriate spot"  Some other rules I have read make similar goofs when they talk about "Place the event cards here and the resource cards there..." when there has been zero mention or explanation of which cards are which (no picture reference, no labelling, no "EVENT" on the card anywhere, etc.) It's easy to forget people are reading this for the first time and it's all new to them, and you wind up writing a rules book that makes perfect sense ... but only to people who have grasped and are familiar with everything beforehand.
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Jan 14, 2015 22:22
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Mega64 posted:For those who have played Roads & Boats, is playing with six players a bad idea? May try to get it played next month, and while I'm sure I'd have two others willing to play at least, I want to make sure it'd be fine with six in case anyone else was interested in playing. If you're all new, definitely do not add expansion stuff. Base game is complex and difficult enough as is before you add art exhibitions, trains, bombers, managers, power plants, etc. I'd recommend against six players, especially if you're all new, though I guess it sort of depends on what map you pick. If you haven't already, you should give it a few solo runs to make sure you absolutely understand how everything interacts, and definitely brush up on conflict rules before you play it with actual people.
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Jan 14, 2015 22:27
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Man you people who have FLGS where you actually test board games are incredibly lucky, all mine just have board games packed in tightly against a wall for sale, and all the tables are used for MTG and Warhammer.
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Jan 14, 2015 22:47
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Countblanc posted:Man you people who have FLGS where you actually test board games are incredibly lucky, all mine just have board games packed in tightly against a wall for sale, and all the tables are used for MTG and Warhammer. At my local FLGS they have large game areas but usually you can't test stuff out on magic days, so you have to make sure to know the game store's schedules.
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Jan 14, 2015 22:51
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Gutter Owl posted:[a really good explanation] Good stuff! Guess I never thought about it that way. Still, with Kickstarter doesn't that alleviate much of the problem? When you can guarantee X number of sales, and get money for it? Though I suppose that'd still be short term, but I'm not sure what kind of success kickstarter ventures get after the initial, uh, 'kick', as it were.
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Jan 14, 2015 22:59
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I used to like my FLGS (GameVault), but now it has Magic events AT LEAST five nights a week, and it's usually more like every night. It's to the point that I am willing to drive to DC or Richmond if I want to play a Netrunner event or attend a board game night. Several people I've met since moving back to this area who are into board gaming refuse to go to GameVault because the Magic players are so offputting. Nowadays, if I want to play bard games in public, I just go to a brewery and bring a couple of my own games or play the games they have there. It's better all around for more casual board game people and most of my friends are beer snobs, so even if you aren't as in to games, there's reason to come hang out. EnjoiThePureTrip fucked around with this message at 23:04 on Jan 14, 2015 |
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Jan 14, 2015 23:01
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Mega64 posted:e: Also I'm totally a rules interrupter whenever my friend explains games to new people and now that it's getting pointed out I'll probably stop doing it. I think (and hope!) it's one thing when you're actually pointing out slips of the tongue and crucial omissions. Sometimes the person explaining actually does mess something up. But other times they have a plan for explaining and you're just interfering. One thing that can help, when you're not sure. Instead of jumping in and explaining it yourself, wait for a pause (or wait until they're done) and then remind your friend as unobtrusively as possible, and let them decide how to handle it from there. So if my friend's explaining Monopoly and they seem to have forgotten to explain jail, I'd just say "Uh, jail?" and then if they had it under control they can just wave me off and continue. Of course even this can get obnoxious if you do it all the time or with an air of criticism, so, you know, common sense.
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Jan 14, 2015 23:13
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Rutibex posted:Terra Mystica seemed a good choice due to the weight of the box Truly the best measure of a game.
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Jan 14, 2015 23:13
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My FLGS came in handy for meeting new people to invite to my house to play my online-bought games. I'm being facetious, of course, I do buy from the store from time to time, especially since they sometimes have games that are hard to find online.
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Jan 14, 2015 23:14
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Can't wait until Rutibex finds out about 18OE or Ogre, they'll be probably his favourite games ever according to his weight-based metric.
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Jan 14, 2015 23:14
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Everyone please pledge to my upcoming Kickstarter for Zombies versus Homestucks: the Cthulhuing, to be released in a box cast from solid lead.
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Jan 14, 2015 23:17
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Zveroboy posted:Truly the best measure of a game. If the box doesn't literally bend under the weight of all the pieces inside, which had better be wooden or steel blocks, then how fun can it really be?
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Jan 14, 2015 23:20
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Kai Tave posted:Everyone please pledge to my upcoming Kickstarter for Zombies versus Homestucks: the Cthulhuing, to be released in a box cast from solid lead. Would you describe your zombie sculpts as "erotic"?
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Jan 14, 2015 23:20
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Poopy Palpy posted:Would you describe your zombie sculpts as "erotic"? I describe all zombie sculpts as erotic.
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Jan 14, 2015 23:20
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Morpheus posted:I describe all zombie sculpts as erotic.
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Jan 14, 2015 23:22
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Tekopo posted:Who doesn't like to crack a cold one once in a while. 
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Jan 14, 2015 23:22
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Kai Tave posted:Everyone please pledge to my upcoming Kickstarter for Zombies versus Homestucks: the Cthulhuing, to be released in a box cast from solid lead. Is it a card drafting, set building, worker placement social interaction game with a hidden traitor, turn order bidding, lots of dice rolling (preferably odd shapes, like d7s) with strong roleplay, deck-building and variable setup? If so, game of the year 2015
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Jan 14, 2015 23:24
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Zveroboy posted:preferably odd shapes, like d7s I looked it up and now I think I'm angry that d7s actually exist.
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Jan 14, 2015 23:26
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Zveroboy posted:Is it a card drafting, set building, worker placement social interaction game with a hidden traitor, turn order bidding, lots of dice rolling (preferably odd shapes, like d7s) with strong roleplay, deck-building and variable setup? For some reason I read something as "dice-building" and I'm imagining a game where you buy numbers to stick onto a die.
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Jan 14, 2015 23:27
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FISHMANPET posted:I looked it up and now I think I'm angry that d7s actually exist. Use d5's and convert all results to percentage points.
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Jan 14, 2015 23:27
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Kai Tave posted:Everyone please pledge to my upcoming Kickstarter for Zombies versus Homestucks: the Cthulhuing, to be released in a box cast from solid lead. Tekopo posted:Who doesn't like to crack a cold one once in a while. These posts are good poo poo
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Jan 14, 2015 23:29
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Gutter Owl posted:And that little connection is the feeling of a job well done, which will hopefully replace the feeling of food. Edit for content: Played Seasons for the first time on BGA with a random. It was... interesting, I guess? With BGA streamlining, I could see it as a decent timewaster, at least. And I got some kind of perverse fun out of continuously hot potatoing a cursed rabbit to my opponent, then charging them an exorbitant fee to give it back, only to just nuke it for crystals at the end. (For anyone who knows the game: holy poo poo, that Mirror of Seasons card is really loving good.) Is Seasons as much of a nightmare to set up and tear down as it looks like? Because good lord, I started to get tired of the goofy 'extended point calculation' three year cycle by the end of year two, and I had a computer doing everything. It has the substance of a filler game, and conceivably the playtime, but I can't imagine it at all has the quick set-up/tear-down of one. girl dick energy fucked around with this message at 23:39 on Jan 14, 2015 |
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Jan 14, 2015 23:34
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Gimnbo posted:For some reason I read something as "dice-building" and I'm imagining a game where you buy numbers to stick onto a die. Blueprints is a dice-building game 
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Jan 14, 2015 23:35
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The trouble with kickstarters is that you have no way of knowing if you like the actual gameplay. Remember when Dead of Winter first came out? Y'all nerds were pretty stocked for it, and then it turned out to be mediocre to bad. With kickstarter as the only option, that would be the only way to get games, which would suck massively. Imagine trying a cool game at a meetup and not being able to buy it in any way. That would suck. Or you guys talking about this cool new thing you got, and oh you missed it. Having stores to store games while you wait for reviews to come in is good. But maybe they don't always need to be brick-and-mortar. Also, board game cafes are awesome and hopefully they will take over a lot of the meetup stuff from stores, allowing the actual stores to go full MTG, which is where the actual money are for them.
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Jan 14, 2015 23:36
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Gimnbo posted:For some reason I read something as "dice-building" and I'm imagining a game where you buy numbers to stick onto a die. http://wizkidsgames.com/quarriors/
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Jan 14, 2015 23:36
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BonHair posted:The trouble with kickstarters is that you have no way of knowing if you like the actual gameplay. Remember when Dead of Winter first came out? Y'all nerds were pretty stocked for it, and then it turned out to be mediocre to bad. With kickstarter as the only option, that would be the only way to get games, which would suck massively. Imagine trying a cool game at a meetup and not being able to buy it in any way. That would suck. Or you guys talking about this cool new thing you got, and oh you missed it. Having stores to store games while you wait for reviews to come in is good. But maybe they don't always need to be brick-and-mortar. Wait why in this weird world where b&m stores are extinct would all publishing go extinct too?
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Jan 14, 2015 23:39
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Morpheus posted:Good stuff! Guess I never thought about it that way. Still, with Kickstarter doesn't that alleviate much of the problem? When you can guarantee X number of sales, and get money for it? Though I suppose that'd still be short term, but I'm not sure what kind of success kickstarter ventures get after the initial, uh, 'kick', as it were. That's the problem, though. Those X number sales are the first print run--the sweetest apple in the barrel, because you can unload them fast to the people who want them most and want them now. But after the hype-catchers and early adopters have all bought in, your second, third, and nth print runs are going to trail out slow, which is when you want the distributor/retailer support to sustain you. But here's the thing: The retailers and distributors want their bite of that sweet first apple too. Being part of the initial sales rush incentivises your partners to throw in with you for the longer haul. And if you've sold all those hot early copies without them, they're not gonna want to pick up your slower, colder leavings. Now, we've seen that you can go the Kickstarter route and still have success in distro. Stonemaier, Level 99, and Tasty Minstrel are success stories here, partly because they made smart moves and didn't shoot themselves in the foot. Level 99, for example, never does Kickstarter Exclusives. (Exclusives might draw in backers by threatening them with "losing out," but exclusives devalue the later retail copies, which are "incomplete" and unappealing.) But you've gotta make sure you're not making GBS threads on the people who will keep you in business after the rush.
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Jan 14, 2015 23:41
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