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AlphaDog posted:Fireballs, on the other hand, seem merely to require a compass or a nail, string, and marker.
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Jan 15, 2015 01:26
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Re: grid chat As it is, "half covered" can be questionable to eyeball unless your tabletop supplies include a compass. And how would groups who use hex grids instead of square grids target these spells? I know they want to offer ToTM as an option for combat, but there's a variant box for grid rules on this very subject. They could have easily been made sensible and easy to adjudicate if they followed the pattern of any number of other games. Choose one square as a point of origin. Any creature within spell radius / 5 squares (not moving diagonally) or hexes is affected. Boom, done. Let me guess: 4e actually did it this way. On line abilities, I've always pointed out a general line and highlighted potential targets. My DM says what actually gets hit. Crude, but at least it's quick. I'm not sure there's a good way to do this other than breaking out the straight edge if you don't launch it in a cardinal direction.
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Jan 15, 2015 01:28
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This is why everything should just be in inches and not in squares.
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Jan 15, 2015 01:34
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Everything should be in terms of "Target", "Arm's-reach of target", and "Every motherfucker in the room"
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Jan 15, 2015 01:40
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AlphaDog posted:So... I can't actually target, with my fireball, the square something is standing in. Also there's apparently no way to get a lighting bolt to fill a single row of squares, it will always half-fill 2 rows. MonsterEnvy posted:That kind of makes Lightning Bolt better. Anyway do you think this is a problem? I have not much love for 5e but the Fireball issue is immaterial; you can target an intersection of its square so you'll always be able to catch the prime target in the "center" (being a block of 2x2 squarres). You may not be able to originate the Fireball right on top of him, but it's not as if that really matters. The Lightning Bolt issue on the other hand... is hilarious. No really. This is the most awesome thing ever. So, given that a Line is a type of Area of Effect (PHB p. 204-205) it will have to pick a square-intersection and then blast forwards. So yes, it indeed half-fills two rows. Now for the fun part: the DMG specifies that "If an area of effect is circular and covers at least half a square, it affects that square." A 100-foot line is not circular. So its two half-square lines... are equally unaffected. So a Lightning Bolt can kill dozens of dudes except if you play with the 5e grid rules. Because then it sort of slips in between the space between spaces, like it's some Lovecraftian pocket dimension.
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Jan 15, 2015 01:41
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mastershakeman posted:This is why everything should just be in inches and not in squares. It's in inches, translated to squares/hexes, translated to "how far in in-game feet but only in 5' increments and picture it like in your head without using a map ok", back into squares, then into squares but differently, back into "how far in in-game feet but only in 5' increments and picture it like in your head without using a map ok (or optionally different squares or even hexes again)". goatface posted:Everything should be in terms of "Target", "Arm's-reach of target", and "Every motherfucker in the room" But that would be a sensible abstract movement/range system rather than the Traditional Dungeons & Dragons Role Playing game way described above. We can't have that, as much as some of us might want it. Sage Genesis posted:The Lightning Bolt issue on the other hand... is hilarious. No really. This is the most awesome thing ever. I picked up on half of that (the "at least half" part), but not that that only applies to circular AoEs. There's nothing about how noncircular AoEs count partial squares, right? I guess it's the DM's ChoiceTM if Lightning Bolt ends up being twice as big as you'd think, or does nothing at all. Elector_Nerdlingen fucked around with this message at 01:51 on Jan 15, 2015 |
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Jan 15, 2015 01:47
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AlphaDog posted:I picked up on half of that (the "at least half" part), but not that that only applies to circular AoEs. Ha. It's really kind of astonishing how poorly written the 5e DMG is. I mean... yeah, plenty of people are going to play 5e with a grid and none of them are going to turn a 5' wide line into either a 10' wide line or a 0' wide line. Nobody ought to be that loving stupid. But the rules which people paid for don't say that. They are some of the worst thought-through rules I've seen in a long time. They just... they don't even work! Two years of playtesting people. This is the best we could do. Edit: And no, it says nothing about other types of AoE. The full text is: Areas of Effect The area of effect of a spell, monster ability, or other feature must be translated onto squares or hexes to determine which potential targets are in the area and which aren't. Choose an intersection of squares or hexes as the point of origin of an area of effect, then follow its rules as normal. If an area of effect is circular and covers at least half a square, it affects that square." Strictly speaking, I guess it doesn't really specify how to handle hexes either. It looks like they remembered about hexes in the first paragraph and forgot about them in the second. Sage Genesis fucked around with this message at 01:55 on Jan 15, 2015 |
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Jan 15, 2015 01:52
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Has anyone made a blue mage style class that learns spells from monster's Spell-like effects?
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Jan 15, 2015 01:54
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Sage Genesis posted:It's really kind of astonishing how poorly written the 5e DMG is. I mean... yeah, plenty of people are going to play 5e with a grid and none of them are going to turn a 5' wide line into either a 10' wide line or a 0' wide line. Nobody ought to be that loving stupid. But the rules which people paid for don't say that. They are some of the worst thought-through rules I've seen in a long time. They just... they don't even work! I don't recall these grid AoE rules being in any playtest document. That doesn't mean they weren't there, I didn't play every single iteration of test and tended to skim over the packets that I wasn't actually playing so there's every chance I just missed them.
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Jan 15, 2015 01:54
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chaos rhames posted:Has anyone made a blue mage style class that learns spells from monster's Spell-like effects? Wizard.  e: and possibly Cleric Hwurmp fucked around with this message at 02:03 on Jan 15, 2015 |
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Jan 15, 2015 01:56
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AlphaDog posted:I don't recall these grid AoE rules being in any playtest document. That doesn't mean they weren't there, I didn't play every single iteration of test and tended to skim over the packets that I wasn't actually playing so there's every chance I just missed them. Oh, no, they weren't in the playtest. Because the world's most extensively playtested RPG didn't actually playtest any of the rules in the DMG. You'd think I was kidding when I said that.
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Jan 15, 2015 01:58
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Really Pants posted:Wizard. I mean like "you get blasted by a fire elemental's lava piss, but now you can piss lava back". You'd have to gate it with something like not being able to go over your caster level, and it would probably end up being bloated with lots of insane abilities and encourage provoking monsters into pissing lava onto you and being the centre of attention, but it'd limit the insane breadth of spells and abilities that casters get and have some personality to it.
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Jan 15, 2015 02:04
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chaos rhames posted:I mean like "you get blasted by a fire elemental's lava piss, but now you can piss lava back". You'd have to gate it with something like not being able to go over your caster level, and it would probably end up being bloated with lots of insane abilities and encourage provoking monsters into pissing lava onto you and being the centre of attention, but it'd limit the insane breadth of spells and abilities that casters get and have some personality to it. An innovative, fun, and thematic idea that limits casters in some way? I loving wish.
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Jan 15, 2015 02:09
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The fire elemental would just have "Lava Piss: As the fifth-level wizard spell" so you've got some of that. Except for the removal of bloat and limiting of abilities.
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Jan 15, 2015 02:10
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Closest thing is going to be Arcane Trickster Rogue's level 17 feature, which allows them to absorb one spell that is cast on them per long rest, and then they're able to cast that spell for 8 hours and the caster whose spell they stole can't cast it for 8 hours. It's dumb as hell because I would be totally down to play a full-blown Spellthief again, but alas. Also is it just me or do not many classes support archers in general? You'd think Bards would be down with archery but due to needing one hand free for somatic and material components of spells, you can't use a bow. So you're stuck with your crappy hand crossbow with the loading property, unless you sacrifice an ability score increase (that could be spent boosting your casting stat) to get Crossbow Expert to let you use the drat thing without the loading property and possibly cheese the rules about whether the hand crossbow itself counts as "a one-handed weapon" for the purposes of the feat. And at that point it's like, why not just use the cantrip Vicious Mockery and save yourself all the trouble? Sure you won't get the bonus attack per round but you'll get to have that sweet sweet +2 to CHA (or whatever) instead. Yes, I realize they work quite differently (you don't add your CHA bonus to Vicious Mockery, you eventually get an extra attack if you go College of Valor--which you'll only be able to take advantage of if you're using Crossbow Expert or War Caster, and War Caster's description actually doesn't mention anything about material components of spells so you STILL can't use cast those while wielding a two-handed bow RAW, etc etc), but it just seems like a lot of fiddling to get the drat setup to work. ...or you can play a Fighter or Ranger. Whooptee-gently caress.  Edit: Monks can actually use bows to good effect too, so I guess there's that. Be an archer monk. Dick Burglar fucked around with this message at 02:28 on Jan 15, 2015 |
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Jan 15, 2015 02:26
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Anyone who says you can't cast while holding a bow in the other hand is a shitlord. A bow, while a two handed weapon, does not require you to have both hands holding things at all times.
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Jan 15, 2015 02:32
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goatface posted:Anyone who says you can't cast while holding a bow in the other hand is a shitlord. A bow, while a two handed weapon, does not require you to have both hands holding things at all times. There's nothing in the casting rules that says or implies that you couldn't be holding something in one hand while you cast with the other, so yeah, while this is clearly something that's up to the DM  any DM telling you that you can't cast because you're holding a bow is a total loving shitlord. "You can't cast while you're firing a bow" is a reasonable interpretation, but I can't see where that would ever come up.
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Jan 15, 2015 02:41
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AlphaDog posted:"You can't cast while you're firing a bow" is a reasonable interpretation, but I can't see where that would ever come up. You cast the magic arrow and then you shoot Ganon with it.
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Jan 15, 2015 02:56
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AlphaDog posted:It's in inches, translated to squares/hexes, translated to "how far in in-game feet but only in 5' increments and picture it like in your head without using a map ok", back into squares, then into squares but differently, back into "how far in in-game feet but only in 5' increments and picture it like in your head without using a map ok (or optionally different squares or even hexes again)". So D&D rules are really just the longest lasting game of telephone ever?
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Jan 15, 2015 02:58
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Rannos22 posted:So D&D rules are really just the longest lasting game of telephone ever?
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Jan 15, 2015 03:01
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FMguru posted:Early D&D rules were precisely that. Some guy heard it from some other guy who was taught by some other guy who played with a guy who played at Gary's table, and this is how they did it. From reading this thread it seems like that isn't limited to "early d&d".
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Jan 15, 2015 03:34
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Rannos22 posted:From reading this thread it seems like that isn't limited to "early d&d". Babylon Astronaut posted:I will maintain that it is impossible for someone to learn the game from the core books alone. If you had no exposure to the video games and the terminology it is like reading an encyclopedia with the pages spread across 3 books in random order. At best, you could run a dysfunctional game that no one would play without removing or changing large parts of the rules through trial and error. To be fair, I think this about most editions of D&D. ...and it's true. If you try to play on a grid right now, you end up with lightning bolts that are twice as wide as they should be or no actual width under certain conditions or something. At the very least, you then have to figure out what to do about it, which can't be what the rules say. I'm not saying it's not totally obvious how to fix it if you already know how lightning bolt is supposed to work (ie, you've played other versions of D&D where this problem didn't exist). I'm not even saying it will be hard for a brand-new group to figure out a solution* that doesn't produce lovely stupid results and then teach that method to other players. I'm saying that, like BA said there, you can't learn to play just by reading the books, so the whole thing is, yes, an extended game of telephone. *Although it might be hard to find the rules in 3 different places across 2 separate books that cover this... Elector_Nerdlingen fucked around with this message at 03:48 on Jan 15, 2015 |
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Jan 15, 2015 03:44
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man sleep is OP for level 1 and 2 wizards to trivialize encounters 
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Jan 15, 2015 04:06
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I can't believe it. I found some one else who gives a poo poo about the basic rules being incomplete. http://bxblackrazor.blogspot.com/2015/01/hey-mike-mearls.html This guy seems even more pissed off than me about it. Fortunately, his post mentioned this quote, WOTC posted:Our goal is to continue to make updates to the basic rules for D&D until the end of the year, at which point it will be feature complete. Which clearly means I should stop bitching about it, because they don't plan to ever fix it. DalaranJ fucked around with this message at 04:15 on Jan 15, 2015 |
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Jan 15, 2015 04:13
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Elendil004 posted:
FTFY
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Jan 15, 2015 04:14
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Rannos22 posted:So D&D rules are really just the longest lasting game of telephone ever? Everything I've learned of D&D's history tells me that yes, this is absolutely the case.
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Jan 15, 2015 05:27
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Dick Burglar posted:Also is it just me or do not many classes support archers in general? You completed missed Rogue, somehow.  Dick Burglar posted:And at that point it's like, why not just use the cantrip Vicious Mockery and save yourself all the trouble? As was pointed out by forums-poster slydingdoor, not adding a modifier to cantrips mean that they blow for taking out (especially low-level) monsters in one shot (because 5e can't have minions  ) and that cantrips are basically just for getting around immunities.
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Jan 15, 2015 05:49
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Dick Burglar posted:Also is it just me or do not many classes support archers in general? "Guy who shoots bows" is a limited-enough character concept that you can't really support an entire class on it. Fighters, Rogues and Bards can all be good at using bows. P.d0t posted:(because 5e can't have minions I don't know if this is an officially supported position, but supposedly part of the reason for Bounded Accuracy is so that a CR 1 Goblin is always going to have some chance of hitting a player, and so if you want to use minions, just use drastically under-CR'd monsters to get the same effect. ... which I have no doubt would work, but it just seems so 11th dimensional chess that it's probably actually just coincidental.
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Jan 15, 2015 05:58
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P.d0t posted:As was pointed out by forums-poster slydingdoor, not adding a modifier to cantrips mean that they blow for taking out (especially low-level) monsters in one shot (because 5e can't have minions Which is what makes Warlock 2 such a tantalizing dip for Bards; +CHA to Eldritch Blast is really, really good. I think the only other way to get +Stat to a cantrip is Knowledge Cleric 8.
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Jan 15, 2015 06:03
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gradenko_2000 posted:I don't know if this is an officially supported position, but supposedly part of the reason for Bounded Accuracy is so that a CR 1 Goblin is always going to have some chance of hitting a player, and so if you want to use minions, just use drastically under-CR'd monsters to get the same effect. "Can't" in the sense of "because 4e did it." So, if they want to design a monster that dies from taking one hit, they give it like 2-3 HP but OOPS i rolled a 1 on my cantrip damage. 
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Jan 15, 2015 06:14
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Rannos22 posted:So D&D rules are really just the longest lasting game of telephone ever?
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Jan 15, 2015 06:58
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What's the rationale for targeting grid intersections instead of squares anyway? Just to make fireball patterns prettier?
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Jan 15, 2015 10:32
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The Real Foogla posted:What's the rationale for targeting grid intersections instead of squares anyway? Just to make fireball patterns prettier? I heard that's how it was done in OOD&D*. *Original Original Dungeons & Dragons. There is only one copy, which is written on suspiciously shaped parchment in giant squid ink and is kept in a watertight icosohedral lead box in a secret vault under Lake Geneva until a new Lead Designer ascends. After they view it, they... change.
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Jan 15, 2015 11:02
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AlphaDog posted:I heard that's how it was done in OOD&D*. So 4e was the counterpart to the Book of Mormon?
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Jan 15, 2015 11:47
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CobiWann posted:So 4e was the counterpart to the Book of Mormon? 4e never existed, it was just a mass hallucination that happened when swamp gas was released from a weather balloon and blown around by a passing experimental black helicopter. That's why this edition is called Next and not 5e.
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Jan 15, 2015 11:54
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CobiWann posted:So 4e was the counterpart to the Book of Mormon?
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Jan 15, 2015 13:12
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Grogs can be shitbags but they don't commit hate crimes against random store clerks in "retaliation" for terrorism. They just burn books they don't agree with and stalk/harass people.
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Jan 15, 2015 13:27
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chaos rhames posted:Has anyone made a blue mage style class that learns spells from monster's Spell-like effects? I've done it as a Sorcerer before, but it was really fast and loose, and was really just us re-skinning all my spells like "Yeah the Acid Splash shoots out of my mouth and it's wicked grosso"
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Jan 15, 2015 13:53
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moths posted:Grogs can be shitbags but they don't commit hate crimes against random store clerks in "retaliation" for terrorism. Well yeah, they don't know where to place the Fireball spell.
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Jan 15, 2015 13:57
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deadly_pudding posted:I've done [monster spellstealing] as a Sorcerer before, but it was really fast and loose, and was really just us re-skinning all my spells like "Yeah the Acid Splash shoots out of my mouth and it's wicked grosso"
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Jan 15, 2015 14:20
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