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Avshalom posted:I don't like Israeli war criminals in general, my tastes are very specific. Young Bibi was very attractive but that doesn't make him less of a mongrel. Young(er) Arik was less gorgeous but he had a nice smile and sassy hips. You may be interested in reading this portrait of Arik over at Commentary. In the meantime, Labor+Hatnuah primaries are over, and the list as stated by Ynet is as follows: 1. Isaac Herzog 2. Tzipi Livni (Hatnua) 3. Shelly Yachimovich 4. Stav Shaffir 5. Itzik Shmuly 6. Omer Bar-Lev 7. Hilik Bar 8. Amir Peretz (Hatnua) 9. Merav Michaeli 10. Eitan Cabel 11. Reserved spot 12. Erel Margalit 13. Mickey Rosenthal 14. Revital Swid 15. Danny Atar 16. Hatnua reserved spot 17. Zuhair Bahloul 18. Eitan Broshi 19. Michal Biran 20. Nachman Shai 21. Hatnua reserved spot 22. Ayelet Nahmias-Verbin 23. Yossi Yona 24. Hatnua reserved spot 25. Hatnua reserved spot 26. Saleh Saad 27. Lea Padida 28. Robert Tiviaev 29. Moshe Mizrahi 30. Eldad Yaniv 31. Behira Berdugo 32. Gilad Kariv 33. Eytan Schwartz 34. Elis Goldman 35. Raleb Majadele 36. Alon Pilz 37. Shimi Baron 38. Haya Cohen 39. Alemi Nizar 40. Ibrahim Abu Sayyah 41. Troodi Salman 42. Lior Carmel 43. Melamed Lemuel 44. Marco Sarrabia 45. Giladi Alon Seems like Yachimovich still has her fans, despite having being ousted as chairperson in favor of Herzog after the last elections. Shaffir's tireless muckraking in the Finance committee seems to have earned her a good seat. Can't quite say what Shmuly has done, but whatever. The first 20-30 places have very few party old-guards. Maybe there's still life to this movement yet.
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Jan 15, 2015 03:04
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| # ? Jun 4, 2024 12:54 |
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 A great article. I play it up to annoy and amuse people, but I really, truly (if not unanimously) loved that man. e: I waste a lot of time on this forum and others trying to explain to people that I feel that he was a war criminal and a great man. Every military leader has aspects of both, but I feel Arik more than anyone can be described wholeheartedly as one or the other. It does both him (and what he did at the end of his career) and the people that he harmed a huge disservice to dismiss either element in favour of the other. They're not mutually exclusive and they need to be reconciled. This thread is probably the only place that can fully understand that. Avshalom fucked around with this message at 03:32 on Jan 15, 2015 |
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Jan 15, 2015 03:27
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Hi all, dropped in to shed some lights on things that I've personally experienced which I've seen some thread-goers aren't 100% accurate about. Hannibal Directive: The way I was taught this thing in the IDF is that in the event of a soldier being kidnapped you are authorized to use deadly force against both the kidnapper and the kidnapee in order to stop it happening. Nothing in there about indiscriminate shelling of the area and mass bombing. It is really as simple as 'Oh he's kidnapping him, shoot them both in the head if you must'. I guess the Givati officers just took it to the absolute extreme (which is shocking for IDF officers. SHOCKING.) Also since Weinstein said it the directive prohibits intentional deadly force to stop a kidnapping I have no idea what they're teaching as Hannibal anymore. Glad I'm out. Palestinian stone throwing: Palestinians throw stones at IDF forces in the west bank quite regularly. They do in Hebron and on fridays there are actual peaceful protests which always turn to stone throwing at IDF soldiers over the fence separating them and the IDF responds with tear gas. This marches are so loving standard that the protesters bring gas masks with them, the IDF brings riots helmets for the stones and the running joke when I was there is that if the IDF stops showing up the protesters will get bored and just go home as well. Most of the time when there Palestinians throw stones they either usually run before anybody gets there, run off exactly when the IDF gets there and then are not pursued most of the time, or are scared off at the first sign of a weapon (and rightfully so.) If you guys have any more questions about what actual IDF service in the west bank looks like feel free to ask. I was there for a few years between major operations.
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Jan 15, 2015 11:30
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And sometimes they get shot in the chest - http://www.jpost.com/Israel-News/Border-policeman-indicted-for-manslaughter-of-Palestinian-teen-named-as-Ben-Deri-384587 And other times it seems like it's not only Palestinians throwing stones - http://www.ynet.co.il/articles/0,7340,L-3154861,00.html I am not sure what inaccuracies you were correcting here, particularly concerning the Hannibal Directive what you're saying seems to be perfectly consistent with stuff that has already been said. Mondoweiss had a bit on the Rafah incident including a subtitled video including the IDF comm recordings from that day - http://mondoweiss.net/2015/01/shooting-recordings-directive
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Jan 15, 2015 11:44
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team overhead smash posted:So we agree that the IDF are actually in a position where someone could throw stones and shoot at them, not elusive never seen shadows that no-one would possibly be able to shoot at? I didn't say the IDF were spooky ghosts that are too invisible to throw rocks at, I said they had a tendency to shoot at Palestinians who get close enough to throw rocks (or to shoot at them). If they're lucky, they just get shot at with tear gas or rubber bullets, but the high fatality rate associated with activities like "throwing stones at IDF soldiers" or "being within sight of IDF soldiers" indicates that IDF soldiers are rarely picky about who they use lethal fire against. It's pretty hard to sneakily shoot at someone who'll will gladly shoot at you just for being there and is just fine closing the checkpoint rather than allowing Palestinians through if there seems to be any danger at all.
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Jan 15, 2015 14:45
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emanresu tnuocca posted:And sometimes they get shot in the chest - http://www.jpost.com/Israel-News/Border-policeman-indicted-for-manslaughter-of-Palestinian-teen-named-as-Ben-Deri-384587 A) Mass destruction is not actually part of Hannibal, because the only thing it actually refers to is killing the person being abducted. The fact that the people who bombed a whole neighborhood to stop the abduction are terrible people is a different issue. B) Yes, sometimes they get shot in the chest, because the IDF is made up of indoctrinated 18 year olds with automatic weapons and 20 year old officers with a god complex. It's not always the case though, and the fact that most of these incidents go unreported because there are no main causalities is the point. It's unfair to paint a picture where every Palestinian who is holding a stone gets shot in the chest. I agree that it happens far too often because it shouldn't happen at all, but it's not exactly 99% of the time. All your other points have been pretty spot on anyway. IDF officers are literally the worst people you'll ever meet.
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Jan 15, 2015 19:25
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I don't actually hate IDF soldiers or officers, sure they are willing participants in a great evil but I do believe that as you said, they are indoctrinated and ill educated, but no I don't hate them sometimes I say hateful poo poo cause I get angry but you know, let people who don't actually live here criticize out of hate, I would still very much like everyone to coexist happily ever after. Anyway, here's a pretty funny article - http://www.haaretz.com/mobile/.premium-1.637071?v=166F16A5D99A53C531656BF58048B372 try to remember the methodology of the survey in a few weeks as Israel Hayom start lying about rising anti-semitism in Britain.
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Jan 16, 2015 19:58
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This is actually hilarious for me to read because I'm living in England right now, so thank you for that.
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Jan 16, 2015 21:47
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As with many things British, British anti-semitism is grey, overcooked and disappointing.
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Jan 16, 2015 21:51
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Disinterested posted:As with many things British, British anti-semitism is grey, overcooked and disappointing. ... and immigrants do it better?
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Jan 16, 2015 22:32
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Absurd Alhazred posted:... and immigrants do it better? Hey, you said it, not me. As if we'd ever get mad at the minority that gave us fish and chips.
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Jan 16, 2015 22:33
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Disinterested posted:Hey, you said it, not me. record scratch Wait, what?
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Jan 16, 2015 22:35
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Absurd Alhazred posted:record scratch Battered fish was brought to England by Jewish emigres fleeing 16th century Spain.
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Jan 16, 2015 22:55
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Time for some elections chat maybe? An average of the results of the three latest polls was posted in Haaretz, here it is:  Of note, Liberman is almost below the threshold, I guess that the recent corruption scandal really did a number on his party, it looks like the majority of his potential voters went to the Likud or to Moshe Kahlon's "Kulanu" party cause Jewish Home seem rather stable around 17 seats, makes sense also cause Liberman's voters were traditionally secular. Edit: Almost forgot, the threshold was raised to 3.25% from 2% through legislation presented by Liberman himself in an attempt to weaken the Arab parties, puts a nice twist on this whole thing. Yair Lapid is still hovering around 10 seats, so his power was halved but it seems like he keeps a rather loyal following after all, he has been very wishy washy recently about which coalitions he'd be willing to join, it seems like he still has some misplaced aspirations about challenging the bigger parties cause he has been vocal in his opposition against pretty much everyone, including his former political ally Bennet. Shas made a recovery after their own ugly battle over the party's leadership that threatened to split the party up and send both halves below the threshold. Of some concern is the weakening of Meretz, initially the polls shown around 7 seats for them, this suggests that the unification between Livni and the Avoda has drawn a lot of Meretz voters, all in all "center and left" parties are still at a minority, despite Avoda/Livni being the largest party. Kahlon's has recently declared that he is fundamentally opposed to the two state solution and that as far as he is concerned Jerusalem will never be divided either, not that some flip-flopping is out of the question but it looks like some of his voters are disgruntled Lapid voters who look for a similar 'socially focused' party but with more right-leaning political views. It is still not sure whether the arab parties will run in a united party or not, the Jewish members of Hadash had raised some concerns about their own place in such a party and everything is pretty much still up in the air right now, regardless, it doesn't look like it will make a significant difference either way. Of course, not joining up might be a risky move as individually most arab parties are hovering very close to the threshold, with Balad being well below it. Likud and Jewish Home seem to be trying to promote similar agendas this time around, both are currently focusing on a smear campaign against Avoda candidates, I would have expected a little more competitiveness between the two parties but perhaps Bibi is comfortable with a strong Bennet even though they had a few public feuds this past term. emanresu tnuocca fucked around with this message at 00:08 on Jan 17, 2015 |
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Jan 16, 2015 23:57
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emanresu tnuocca posted:Likud and Jewish Home seem to be trying to promote similar agendas this time around, both are currently focusing on a smear campaign against Avoda candidates, I would have expected a little more competitiveness between the two parties but perhaps Bibi is comfortable with a strong Bennet even though they had a few public feuds this past term. I think the most important thing for Netanyahu is that he has someone rightwards of him in the coalition, so he can blame them for anything too right-wing when pressed by outsiders, while also someone leftwards of him to blame for anything too left-wing for the base. Leadership without responsibility is the Bibi legacy.
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Jan 17, 2015 00:31
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I might just be misunderstanding the Israeli election process and the whole anti-Bibi vibe surrounding the merger of Livni and Herzog, but if the HaAvoda coalition wins, Bibi is no longer prime minister, right? It'd be Herzog or something?
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Jan 17, 2015 01:17
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Volkerball posted:I might just be misunderstanding the Israeli election process and the whole anti-Bibi vibe surrounding the merger of Livni and Herzog, but if the HaAvoda coalition wins, Bibi is no longer prime minister, right? It'd be Herzog or something? Current law is that after the elections, all the parties who got seats send delegates to the president and endorse prime ministers among the heads of parties. The president then decides on a prime minister, who is then required to build a coalition. That prime minister has some time to do so. If they fail (which I do not believe to have happened in Israeli history), the president will choose someone else. It doesn't have to be the head of the biggest party. In fact, in the previous Knesset, Kadima was the biggest party; but Netanyahu was the one who got to form a government, because the bigger parties, including labor, endorsed him rather than Livni, then head of Kadima. If The Zionist Camp can't head a coalition, they can't have a government.
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Jan 17, 2015 01:27
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Is there any restrictions on who the President can choose? Because my impression was that the President doesn't really do anything or have any power.
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Jan 17, 2015 01:33
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Volkerball posted:Is there any restrictions on who the President can choose? Because my impression was that the President doesn't really do anything or have any power. I think the president can choose whoever they wish. However, if this person can't form a coalition, this might lead to gridlock or a repeated election. The president is mostly ceremonial, but does have this power, as well as the power to pardon criminals. Famously, President Herzog (Isaac's Dad) gave a blanket pardon to Shin Bet officers involved in the notorious extra-judicial killing of the capture Route 300 terrorists.
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Jan 17, 2015 01:43
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Miftan posted:
I for one would be pretty interested to know. My cousin was conscripted into the Greek army which basically has no money and old guns, I assume in the IDF your equipment and care was pretty good, or does the money all go elsewhere? Also would just generally be happy to hear any impressions you have of the IDF and the West Bank in general. Beats a slapfight.
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Jan 17, 2015 01:49
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Well, the ICC has opened their preliminary investigation into the situation in Palestine after the OTP decided to proceed proporio motu. There was some talk of the US cutting aid to the PA in the event of a prelim. investigation getting opened so that may be on the cards.
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Jan 17, 2015 03:50
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kustomkarkommando posted:Well, the ICC has opened their preliminary investigation into the situation in Palestine after the OTP decided to proceed proporio motu. What's the legal situation for that? Does Congress have to pass a bill to fund them, or pass a bill to defund them?
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Jan 17, 2015 03:58
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Absurd Alhazred posted:What's the legal situation for that? Does Congress have to pass a bill to fund them, or pass a bill to defund them? If they did, with a Republican House and Senate, it would pass easily. Obama would have to go head to head with AIPAC to veto, which he has been lenient to do.
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Jan 17, 2015 04:04
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Volkerball posted:If they did, with a Republican House and Senate, it would pass easily. Obama would have to go head to head with AIPAC to veto, which he has been lenient to do. Reluctant, you mean. And I don't know, he doesn't have to get elected or give a poo poo if anyone else gets elected. I have a dream!
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Jan 17, 2015 04:13
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Absurd Alhazred posted:Reluctant, you mean. And I don't know, he doesn't have to get elected or give a poo poo if anyone else gets elected. I have a dream! Don't teach me my own native language.  I wish your hopes were right, but I think that they are not. He's gonna be using all his leverage for his free community college thing. Not going to take away from that effort by making a big stand against Israel.
Volkerball fucked around with this message at 04:19 on Jan 17, 2015 |
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Jan 17, 2015 04:15
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Edit: nooooo i never hit quote instead of edit. 
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Jan 17, 2015 04:17
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Absurd Alhazred posted:What's the legal situation for that? Does Congress have to pass a bill to fund them, or pass a bill to defund them? Apparently not as someone managed to squeeze a provision in just in case Division K of PL113-76 § 7041(j)(2) posted:(A)(i) None of the funds appropriated under the heading
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Jan 17, 2015 04:17
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Volkerball posted:Don't teach me my own native language. It's my language, too, you know!  Yeah, I don't really hope. I have a kind of simulacrum of hope that anyone involved with the I/P conflict has. Gallows humor built-in. Case in point: kustomkarkommando posted:Apparently not as someone managed to squeeze a provision in just in case
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Jan 17, 2015 04:18
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Looks like tiny man Rand Paul is already on top of this
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Jan 17, 2015 04:34
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kustomkarkommando posted:Looks like tiny man Rand Paul is already on top of this So, after the PA collapses when members of its security forces sell their guns to ISIS militants for food, what happens next?
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Jan 17, 2015 04:40
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Absurd Alhazred posted:So, after the PA collapses when members of its security forces sell their guns to ISIS militants for food, what happens next? I've been telling you for weeks now that Abbas' bid to join ICC was stupid, stupid, stupid. What happens is that Israel owns the West Bank issue, and Jordan faces collapse from a wave of refugees. Regional war in the worst case. The imposition of a one or one and half state solution at best.
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Jan 17, 2015 05:36
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My Imaginary GF posted:I've been telling you for weeks now that Abbas' bid to join ICC was stupid, stupid, stupid. How dare you yell for help as I am beating you.
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Jan 17, 2015 05:44
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Doesn't most of the US aid to Palestine not actually reach it because Israel has to permit it to and tends to hold it indefinitely for reasons?
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Jan 17, 2015 06:01
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Absurd Alhazred posted:So, after the PA collapses when members of its security forces sell their guns to ISIS militants for food, what happens next? Honestly, I don't think it'll come to that. Unlike Hamas, the PA's cash situation isn't that serious, and I can't think of a single entity (besides Hamas and other extremist groups) that wants Fatah to collapse.
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Jan 17, 2015 06:06
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My Imaginary GF posted:I've been telling you for weeks now that Abbas' bid to join ICC was stupid, stupid, stupid. What happens is that Israel owns the West Bank issue, and Jordan faces collapse from a wave of refugees.
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Jan 17, 2015 06:35
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Anyone got some details on Kulanu? Kinda seems as though Bibi gets his 60 if that's a "right-center" party. ... And I was really hoping to see SHAS crumble into oblivion and die in a fire  nopantsjack posted:I for one would be pretty interested to know. My cousin was conscripted into the Greek army which basically has no money and old guns, I assume in the IDF your equipment and care was pretty good, or does the money all go elsewhere? Give us some details / specifics, and we can have a comparison. Edit - oh yeah. 5 star hotel spas. Well, airforce bases often (?) have a pool and an exercises facility attached. My base also had a library with more or less carefully selected ideologically proper books (and a shitload more of donated randoms), a "social activities" room with boardgames, a TV and a DVD. Not computers (in 2004!). The food is basic, but plentiful. I've worked at hotels that had worse food, honestly. Xander77 fucked around with this message at 15:39 on Jan 17, 2015 |
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Jan 17, 2015 06:40
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Xander77 posted:Anyone got some details on Kulanu? Kinda seems as though Bibi gets his 60 if that's a "right-center" party. M4A1 is the standard weapon in the US Army, and yeah, we re-use mags for years and years. A lot of people buy their own HK mags because the issued ones are cheap as hell. Basically all of our weapons systems are really old. The M4 is a variant from the Vietnam M16 (though a hell of a lot has been improved on the original design), the M240B is from the 70's, the M249 is from the 80's, and the M2 is from WWI. Hell, even the MK 19 is from the 60's.
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Jan 17, 2015 06:50
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Moshe Kahlon was a very popular likud member and minister of communications/welfare/social service, famous for breaking the cellcom/pelephone/orange communication monopoly and lowering cellular communication prices. That's all he's ever done really. resigned from Likud in 2013. The most prominent members of the Kulanu list other than Kahlon is famous islamophobe and former ambassador to the US Michael Oren and former IDF general and public-lands thief Yoav Gallant. Pretty clearly a center-right bunch with a very clear affiliation to Bibi. Still, the way the votes are divided right now Bibi will have to court Lapid and possibly Shas/United-Torah to actually assemble a majority coalition, which is why some pundits insist that the most reasonable outcome for these elections would be a unity government, something like Likud/Avoda/Lapid/Kulanu, effectively pushing all 'extremists' to the opposition, worth noting that rotational unity governments have never really worked smoothly in Israel before. Edit: Bennet's face sometimes makes very ugly shapes  And that car is filthy. emanresu tnuocca fucked around with this message at 13:28 on Jan 17, 2015 |
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Jan 17, 2015 12:44
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nopantsjack posted:I for one would be pretty interested to know. My cousin was conscripted into the Greek army which basically has no money and old guns, I assume in the IDF your equipment and care was pretty good, or does the money all go elsewhere? Both equipmant and care were terrible in my unit. The elite units get treated like they're at a 5 star hotel. Spas on base, the works. If there's anything specific you want to know feel free to ask, because 3 years worth of grudges is a lot to go through.
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Jan 17, 2015 15:01
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The man who brought us this: has come up with another instant-classic: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-agF4Dk8Iws Each of the kids represents one of Netanyahu's political opponents, Avigdor Liberman (who's addressed as Evet by Bibi in the video, lest anyone forget he's not a true sabra) is told he must learn to share with the other kids, Bennet is poked by Yair Lapid and says "Ouch ouch ouch" which sounds like Hebrew for 'Brother' in reference to Bennet's "Bennet is a bro" campaign which Bibi mocks with sarcastic "Yes he's a brother", Lapid then plays with an abacus and is told by Bibi to "leave it alone, you're ruining it", Tzipi livni is told to stop running from place to place (the lady has been a part of 5 different political parties the past decade and a half), the tag is that you can't run a country like it was a kindergarten. drat, the man is on fire, this just in: quote:Israel rejects the absurd decision of the ICC prosecutor. emanresu tnuocca fucked around with this message at 20:19 on Jan 17, 2015 |
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Jan 17, 2015 19:38
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