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Mehuyael posted:Not all Jewish organizations are pro-Israel though. This is true but SWC absolutely is
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Jan 15, 2015 13:13
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I'm glad there are so many non-minority dudes around to tell minority groups whether or not their concerns about discrimination are justified. 
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Jan 15, 2015 13:14
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Rygar201 posted:This is true but SWC absolutely is I know but he framed it as if it's only natural that an organization which is Jewish will support Israel. I guess he fell to the 'zionism is Judaism' fallacy.
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Jan 15, 2015 13:15
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Mehuyael posted:Not all Jewish organizations are pro-Israel though. 
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Jan 15, 2015 13:15
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Rigged Death Trap posted:
Hebro is so offended that a tiny Schutzstaffel is emitting from his face. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2pOMCmVc3wY
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Jan 15, 2015 13:16
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Rigged Death Trap posted:For the express reason:
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Jan 15, 2015 13:16
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Bloodnose posted:That'd be reasonable if depicting the Holocaust was something anybody ever got upset about. Did anyone (who isn't Ted Rall) ever get upset about Maus (only cartoon about the Holocaust that jumps to mind) or any of the films or books like Night that are so widely acclaimed and also depict the Holocaust? He's specifically referring to the Iranian holocaust cartoon contest which was held in the context of the caricatures of Mohamed that Danish newspaper back in 2006. The Western world finds cartoons mocking Mohamed hilarious but is horrified if anyone uses the imagery of the holocaust . IIRC even Maus came under attack when it was published for trivialising the Holocaust by putting it in cartoon form. If you look at the Iranian Holocaust cartoon winners most of them aren't denying the Holocaust (there is one particularly shitful one that is and another that looks like it's saying the Israelis have killed more Palestinians than there were killed in the Holocaust), they're instead inverting the imagery of the Holocaust to criticise Israeli abuses against the Palestinians. I think the best ones of those are the ones which show the Israeli military using the Holocaust as something they hide behind to deflect criticism of their actions. Using the imagery of the Palestinian as death camp victims not so much because that's not what's going on. I understand the need to provide some punchy protesting signs, but what Israel is doing in the occupied territories is bad enough in its own right that it doesn't need exaggeration and it opens Latuff up to claims that he's antisemitic, which is a thing I seriously doubt. E: drat this thread moves fast when it's not handling.
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Jan 15, 2015 13:18
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I genuinely believe Latuff is anti-semetic and also a complete dick.
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Jan 15, 2015 13:24
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Gilganixon posted:I think the best ones of those are the ones which show the Israeli military using the Holocaust as something they hide behind to deflect criticism of their actions. I'd love to see Latuff tackle this in his style (please post if he has) because that Holocaust Shaming poo poo is the thing that most pisses me off about Israel and the Jewish community that rallies around it. "No Bloodnose Israel is not doing a bad thing because of this parable of a gas chamber victim I read in the Times of Israel" - a thing that has been said to me too many times by too many different Jews.
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Jan 15, 2015 13:24
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Afraid of Audio posted:I genuinely believe Latuff is anti-semetic and also a complete dick. Can you back this genuine belief up with examples?
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Jan 15, 2015 13:29
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Bloodnose posted:I'd love to see Latuff tackle this in his style (please post if he has) because that Holocaust Shaming poo poo is the thing that most pisses me off about Israel and the Jewish community that rallies around it. "No Bloodnose Israel is not doing a bad thing because of this parable of a gas chamber victim I read in the Times of Israel" - a thing that has been said to me too many times by too many different Jews. I don't recall ever seeing one from Latuff about Palestine. I found this one about Iran though which is the same kind of thing: 
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Jan 15, 2015 13:35
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Bloodnose posted:I'd love to see Latuff tackle this in his style (please post if he has) because that Holocaust Shaming poo poo is the thing that most pisses me off about Israel and the Jewish community that rallies around it. "No Bloodnose Israel is not doing a bad thing because of this parable of a gas chamber victim I read in the Times of Israel" - a thing that has been said to me too many times by too many different Jews. 
Pants Donkey fucked around with this message at 13:39 on Jan 15, 2015 |
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Jan 15, 2015 13:36
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Sheng-ji Yang posted:Can you back this genuine belief up with examples? e: and immediately I see I had it entirely wrong, nevermind.
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Jan 15, 2015 13:38
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Gilganixon posted:He's specifically referring to the Iranian holocaust cartoon contest which was held in the context of the caricatures of Mohamed that Danish newspaper back in 2006. The Western world finds cartoons mocking Mohamed hilarious but is horrified if anyone uses the imagery of the holocaust . IIRC even Maus came under attack when it was published for trivialising the Holocaust by putting it in cartoon form. That's a pretty stupid example since the backlash against Spiegelman for that went away extremely quickly. All it illustrates is how quickly people got the gently caress over their sensitivities when the value of the art that caused offence became clear.
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Jan 15, 2015 13:47
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Mehuyael posted:Not all Jewish organizations are pro-Israel though. Those ones are antisemitic
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Jan 15, 2015 13:48
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ZenVulgarity posted:Those ones are antisemitic Here's a helpful breakdown
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Jan 15, 2015 13:51
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Rygar201 posted:Here's a helpful breakdown Jesus, you have to love "Jewishness" in quotes.
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Jan 15, 2015 13:52
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I don't know it Latuff is as much an anti-semite as he is loving awful at representing nuance in his comics. Dude hates zionism with a passion, but I don't think it's safe to assume all of that anger extends to Jews at large. Some of it, maybe, but he seems pretty focused on Israeli policies. Maybe I'm just desensitized by some of the poo poo Kirschen pulls. Seems to me it's more anti-semitic to call Jews traitors if they don't have a boner for genocide as stiff as his. (fake edit: see above)
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Jan 15, 2015 13:52
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The Turkish Bridge According to the Guardian: Turkey confirms ‘escape’ of French terror attacker’s partner to Syria "TURKEY on Monday confirmed that Hayat Boumeddiene, the wanted partner of one of the gunmen behind the terror attacks in France, travelled through Turkey last week on her way to Syria. "She entered Turkey on January 2 from Madrid. There are images of her at the airport," Turkish Foreign Minister Mevlut Cavusoglu was quoted as saying by state-run news agency Anatolia. Cavusoglu said the 26-year-old, who married gunman Amedy Coulibaly in an Islamic ceremony, stayed at a hotel in Kadikoy on the Asian side of Istanbul and was accompanied by another person. She then crossed into Syria on January 8, according to her phone records, Cavusoglu said, without making clear if she travelled to Syria on her own. A Turkish security source on Saturday had also told AFP that Boumeddiene had entered Turkey on January 2 and was believed to have moved on to the southeastern Turkish city of Sanliurfa and then to Syria. But Turkey did not arrest her because of a lack of timely intelligence from France, the source said. Cavusoglu's comments confirm that Boumeddiene was already outside France when the killing spree began, contrary to earlier speculation that she had been involved in the Paris killings in which 17 people died. Boumeddiene is suspected of having had a role in her partner attacks which culminated in a bloody hostage-taking in a kosher supermarket on Friday after he had shot dead a policewoman close to a synagogue the day before."-more Labels: 2015, Europe, France, Islamists, NATO, Paris, Syria, terror, terror attacks, Turkey
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Jan 15, 2015 13:52
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Jerusalem posted:Here's another rib-tickler! yessss   
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Jan 15, 2015 13:53
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Kurtofan posted:Jesus, you have to love "Jewishness" in quotes. I think I can actually recognize like a third of the personalities and groups painted as enemies of the state in that poo poo.
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Jan 15, 2015 13:54
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Oh god if Mittens is thinking about running again, it means the Return of MittFitts 
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Jan 15, 2015 13:55
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I hope the new model Romney-bot still smiles creepily at really inappropriate times.
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Jan 15, 2015 13:58
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Lumberjack Bonanza posted:I hope the new model Romney-bot still smiles creepily at really inappropriate times. Romney Death Rally 2015, bring it on.
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Jan 15, 2015 14:00
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Agnosticnixie posted:I think I can actually recognize like a third of the personalities and groups painted as enemies of the state in that poo poo. Number 5 is supposed to be Jon Stewart, right?
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Jan 15, 2015 14:05
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Outside of the "is Latuff antisemitic?" debate, it's a total false equivalency to compare Mohamed cartoons to those mocking, trivializing, or denying the holocaust. You're comparing some culture's fairy tales to an actual genocide.
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Jan 15, 2015 14:05
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Karnegal posted:Outside of the "is Latuff antisemitic?" debate, it's a total false equivalency to compare Mohamed cartoons to those mocking, trivializing, or denying the holocaust. You're comparing some culture's fairy tales to an actual genocide. No you see, a lot of people actually believe those (possibly more than the genocide, even) so we must give equal respect to both.
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Jan 15, 2015 14:10
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 Two city employees in Hamilton were fired for bringing pot brownies to work at a public works site and sharing them with an unknowing coworker, who had an "adverse reaction" and had to be taken to the hospital (he recovered).
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Jan 15, 2015 14:18
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Rigged Death Trap posted:And got 3rd place in the list of the year's greatest anti-semites.
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Jan 15, 2015 14:34
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Lumberjack Bonanza posted:I don't know it Latuff is as much an anti-semite as he is loving awful at representing nuance in his comics. After having taken part in this same conversation like five or six times, this is basically my take on it. Almost. The way I see it, Latuff is so bad at nuance in his comics because he's bad at nuance in general, and since Brazil has such a low Jewish population (roughly 0.05%, about 1/35th as many per capita as America has) his main exposure to Jews is in headlines about Israel. He really doesn't like Israel, and without any other context for Judaism he has no problem with using its Jewishness against it in his cartoons. He's gotten in a lot of trouble for this, and despite really obviously resenting it (see: the  face Simon Wiesenthal one) he's taken some lessons from that and gotten better at it over time.In other words, while he may or may not be anti-semitic in his private life (owing again to his lack of nuance), the most we can say for his work itself (in recent years anyway) is that it's insensitive, which he probably wouldn't deny. Yeah though the thing about depictions of Muhammad vs depictions of the Holocaust just reminded me of Muir whining about how he can't say the N-word more than anything else. No sympathy from me, Carlos 
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Jan 15, 2015 14:48
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I never thought I'd see Glenn McCoy draw Neil Innes. And frankly, I still haven't.
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Jan 15, 2015 14:54
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Rigged Death Trap posted:
Latuff: worse than literal Nazis.
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Jan 15, 2015 14:56
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loquacius posted:Yeah though the thing about depictions of Muhammad vs depictions of the Holocaust just reminded me of Muir whining about how he can't say the N-word more than anything else. No sympathy from me, Carlos Again, that cartoon from 2006 is about the Iranian Holocaust cartoon contest in particular, which was a direct response to the depictions of Mohamed in the Danish press. Some of the entries were completely shitful, but of the award winners only one denied the Holocaust (a second one completely trivialised it), a few were about Israel using the Holocaust to deflect criticism of their actions and the rest were along the lines of what Latuff did, which was that Israelis are treating Palestinians in the occupied territories the same way the Jews were treated in the Holocaust. This angle is dumb (it's closer to apartheid except the Israelis have no use for the Palestinian population at all so there are no consequences for treating them like garbage) but it's correct to draw people's attention to Israeli crimes against humanity as opposed to letting them do whatever because Holocaust. Latuff's more guilty of a lack of nuance as said in this and other iterations of the Politoons thread over and over again, primarily because he wants to get a shocking image onto a protest placard. E: My point is that the cartoons that the world is crying about in that image were mostly critical of Israel's treatment of Palestinians which is a completely valid thing to be critical of. Also  :Simon Weisenthal Centre posted:
Saint Isaias Boner fucked around with this message at 15:15 on Jan 15, 2015 |
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Jan 15, 2015 15:05
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During the recent conflict instigated by Hamas against the Jewish state,
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Samurai Sanders posted:But...it's true, isn't it? France has laws to protect against anti-Jewish talk, but not anti-Muslim. Or did I hear wrong? No you're right. Hate speech law across Europe talks specifically about the jewish holocaust. Even quibbling about a small error in any part of the official account can lead to prison.
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Jan 15, 2015 15:08
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At least in Germany what you'd call hate speech laws do not discriminate between whether the targetted group is Jewish or Muslims. ("Hate speech" against Germans themselves is not considered "hate speech" at all, though.)
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Jan 15, 2015 15:14
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The most generous interpretation I've been able to manage to put together of Latuff is that he thinks antisemitism isn't a real problem that exists anymore and is now a term wholly used by deployers of the "antisemitism card" in defense of Israel. Now, to be fair, this interpretation makes him uninformed and probably well-meaning rather than malicious, but on the other hand we've got plenty of people who think the same thing about racism and we don't give them a pass.
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Jan 15, 2015 15:16
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Randler posted:At least in Germany what you'd call hate speech laws do not discriminate between whether the targetted group is Jewish or Muslims. ("Hate speech" against Germans themselves is not considered "hate speech" at all, though.) Well, the Germans try not to mention "Jews", but let's be honest here: ""Whoever publicly or in a meeting approves of, denies or belittles an act committed under the rule of National Socialism"" What could they be talking about here?  
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Jan 15, 2015 15:26
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Benly posted:The most generous interpretation I've been able to manage to put together of Latuff is that he thinks antisemitism isn't a real problem that exists anymore and is now a term wholly used by deployers of the "antisemitism card" in defense of Israel. I think there's a more generous interpretation which is that Latuff is very anti-Israel and sees Israel using lots of Jewish imagery (since it is openly a Jewish state, after all) and so is not above using the same Jewish imagery in his attacks on Israel. The problem arises when Latuff is depicting real things like the Israeli logo used on fighter jets being a Star of David, since that's also part of the flag. Latuff might draw an Israeli jet bombing some Palestinian kids, and put a prominent Star of David on the plane since a) that's the logo used by the Israeli Air Force itself; and b) it's an easy way to show his readers that it's an Israeli plane. Latuff's cartoonish style often leads to exaggerations in these depictions, like making the Star of David bigger than it would be on a real plane. The problem is that this is the exact same technique used by actual anti-Semitic artists, who might draw a very similar image but with the intent of showing "The Jews are killing children" rather than "Israel is killing children". Just look at Dees, who slaps blue Stars of David on everything to show that really it's the Jews who are controlling the media or whatever. Latuff has extreme opinions about Israel, but I don't think I've ever seen a cartoon of his that I would call anti-Semitic, because his cartoons are pretty uniformly aimed at the state of Israel rather than the Jewish people. His Israeli bad guys are big and tough but wear Israeli military uniforms, or are caricatures of actual Israeli politicians. When he draws ordinary Jewish citizens he's normally drawing them in a good light to show the similarities between them and Palestinians in order to try and get people to realize that they're all the same. He criticizes the state and military of Israel (which, to be honest, should be allowed of any state even if it is an overtly Jewish one) but I don't recall him criticizing the Jewish people of Israel. I'm pretty sure his opinion on them is the same as his opinion on the people of any other Western state.
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Jan 15, 2015 15:27
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  I think it's fairly clear that Latuff is anti-Israel, and that he resents objections to its behaviour being whitewashed as 'anti-semitism'. Is anyone aware of more egregious examples of him being actually anti-Jewish?   These older ones could be seen as closer to the mark (I found them on a blog reporting these as 'anti semitic') although the second just feels petty. (Has Latuff ever used a straightforward Jewish caricature (Orthodox and/or hooked nose) to represent Israel? I can only remember the flag.)   Latuff on the Holocaust/comparing the IDF to Nazis. This is the clearest example of Latuff being anti-semitic by the standards set by the European Monitoring Center on Racism and Xenophobia: quote:What is Anti-Semitism Relative to Israel? (That list also includes 'denying Israel's right to exist' - how many other countries have that 'right', incidentally?)
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Jan 15, 2015 15:28
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Benly posted:The most generous interpretation I've been able to manage to put together of Latuff is that he thinks antisemitism isn't a real problem that exists anymore and is now a term wholly used by deployers of the "antisemitism card" in defense of Israel. He's not a McCoy drawing big purple lips every other day. He didn't give the SWC guy in his cartoon a giant hooknose or pockets full of money or whatever racist thing he could have done.
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Jan 15, 2015 15:29
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